[Closed] Brizzle to become a 20mph city. Hooray? Or not?

IMO 20 mph limits [i]done properly [/i]is a great way of reclaiming our cities away from the cars.

You also need a effort on urban main roads to take them to 40 mph where you can separate off pedestrians and cyclists and you need to make the 20 mph default with thus no signage needed. Parking in 20 mph zones needs to be designated spaces only.

A half hearted attempt like we have in edinburgh will discredit the ide.

I have never seen any speed enforcement on residential streets in the UK, so does a speed limit really effect drivers actions.

As TJ said it needs to be done properly, cities in the UK need to start creating long term plans, covering all aspects of the urban traffic environment, trunk roads, residential streets, pedestrian and cycling routes and public transport. They all work together and jumping on one headline grabbing aspect will be doomed to failure.

In principle I agree with 20mph limits on residential streets, it works quite well here in Germany, but its only a small part of the overall outlook on transport.

Great idea.

I don't mind 20 in busier or residential streets, we have one near us it runs parallel with our street. So sadly it means more people use ours now and a good few over 30. I should really be a moaning fart and contact my MP and council.

I thought the average speed in Bristol traffic was around 14mph anyway!

It's generally a good idea, but the implementation needs to be considered and not rolled out carte blanche.

I have never seen any speed enforcement on residential streets in the UK, so does a speed limit really effect drivers actions.

I guess they're counting on the majority who will stick to the limits without the need for enforcement?

IMO 20 mph limits done properly is a great way of reclaiming our cities away from the cars.

Not applicable to motorcycles then, I take it. 🙂

While no easier to enforce than 30 mph, it will probably still slow people down, which is a good thing.

Of of the hidden advantages is the reduced need for traffic lights. At 30 mph its hard to negotiate crowded junctions without lights, at 20 mph its much easier. Traffic flows are hardly changed as jams decrease and you get less concertina effect.

It would also make it much safer for cyclists a much less incentive for cars to overtake and much less damage done if you are hit at the lower speeds - for cyclists and pedestrians

I should really be a moaning fart and contact my MP and council.

I would if it were my street. 🙂 Seriously though, it sounds like it hasn't been thought through in the case of where you live. I'm hoping someone who knows what he or she is doing will implement it properly, and most importantly, not turn local streets into rat runs.

I'm hoping someone who knows what he or she is doing will implement it properly, and most importantly, not turn local streets into rat runs.

Tim Kent. 😕

I guess they're counting on the majority who will stick to the limits without the need for enforcement?

Does the majority stick to a 30mph limit? I would think its not the case.

I'm hoping someone who knows what he or she is doing will implement it properly, and most importantly, not turn local streets into rat runs.

If they did it would have been done right, we had a school at the top of our street and it's gone now so a bit harder to fight. That said the street in question the schools are further away than from ours it's just that the dozen or so busses that use it with 5 kids on each meant they got a 20 limit. The same busses then drive down our street. So yeah I hold little faith.

There's been a 20 mph limit in St Werburghs for a while. From what I can see, most drivers seem to ignore it and drive to the 30 mph limit anyway.

I think if you introduce a 20 limit then you will tend to at least keep people down to 30 which all in all is a good thing.

Does the majority stick to a 30mph limit? I would think its not the case.

😐

There's been a 20 mph limit in St Werburgh's for a while. From what I can see, most drivers seem to ignore it and drive to the 30 mph limit anyway.

🙁

And another chunk of my faith in human nature is blown to bits. 🙂

I think most people recognise the safety aspects of a 20mph limit on the street they live on, but are a little more casual on other streets while rushing to work.

It is really important to get the urban planning right so that traffic is taken out of the low limit streets within a short distance and onto more freely flowing roads for the bulk of any journey, it really really will only work as one aspect of an overall plan.

Seems to be what happens though, reduce it to 20 and some will do 30 but keep it 30 and those people will do nearer 40. It also takes awhile for people, especially locals, to adjust to doing 20. It's relatively new thing remember we're programmed for 30 in built up areas.

Seems to generally work here in Germany. Never seen it enforced (except one time recently outside the office).

I'd rather have a blanket 20mph (30kph here) limit and people speed a bit, than 20mph zones with cameras outside schools etc. with drivers staring at the speedo, cacking themselves that they might get a ticket and 3 points.

The 30kph limit doesn't stop the Polish bus drivers driving at 50 down the street outside work, though.

20 is good - if only for keeping drivers to 30.

Not keen on the speed bumps that tend to get rolled out with most 20s...

It would also make it much safer for cyclists a much less incentive for cars to overtake

One of the good things with German enforcement is if your just caught doing a few kmph over the limit, you just get a 20 euro fine with no points, you have to get a few of those within a certain time period before getting points on your license (I think its 3 within 2 years). Its a nice little reminder to behave in the buffer zone between the legal limit and the enforcement limit that is just ignored in the UK.

I have seen enforcement in residential zones in Germany a few times, also lack of street markings and the give way to traffic from the right rule, all helps to enforce the low speed residential nature of the streets.

As I have already said, it all appears to be part of a bigger plan, that has been ongoing since the 70's, they didn't just change a rule or two to create this environment overnight, they have implemented long term transport and urban planning policies.

But my road speed average is 20mph+ Ill have to slow down 🙁

I live in S. Bristol - we've had the 20mph here for a while now. Sticking to the advertised limit doesn't present me any problems, just as it didn't give me any problems when I passed my test.

Unfortunately, it appears I'm in the minority - since the introduction of the lower limit, average speeds round here have dropped by just 1mph. Unless the police are going to enforce it, expanding it to the rest of Bristol is completely pointless.

I think the real trick is to design streets that self-enforce the limit - for example narrowing the road surface by adding a segregated cycle lane and/or wider pavement.

I live in one of the 20mph zones that has been in Bristol for a few years and it's a good thing, although some twunts always go at 40mph+ regardless. Luckily they often have 'sports' exhausts so you can hear them coming.
I barely went over 20mpg on the smaller roads before anyway; how anyone can think it's safe to go at 40mph down a narrow street with cars parked either side I don't know. There are a couple of wider street where it is difficult to sit at 20 and most people do 30 but some of them were probably doing 40 before anyway.
All residential streets should be 20mph.

Graham - no cycle lanes in 20 mph areas - not needed. You are right tho a lot of it is about road design and engineering

I think people will just continue to pay little attention to speed limits and drive however they feel like. The only reason people end up doing 30 ish is because that's what they are used to. Changing the signs won't make much difference imo.

The "bikes can go both ways on a 1 way street" thing here is handy too 🙂
Might only be where signed as such. Saves me riding 7/8ths of the way around the block.

With bikes going against the flow, it does kind of make it necessary for drivers not to floor it along the 30kph residential/business street.

Narrower is better than chicanes too, which just give drivers a target to overtake cyclists by. Although my experience of German ones is that drivers are a lot more patient.

no cycle lanes in 20 mph areas - not needed

I think people will just continue to pay little attention to speed limits and drive however they feel like. The only reason people end up doing 30 ish is because that's what they are used to. Changing the signs won't make much difference imo.

I disagree, the last Spanish government as part of a supposed fuel saving measure dropped the motorway limit from 120 to 110, and it was noticeable how much slower people would drive. Sure, some were still going way over that limit, but most didn't. Funnily enough, they put the limit back up to 120 just before the last election 🙄

Graham - no cycle lanes in 20 mph areas - not needed. You are right tho a lot of it is about road design and engineering

I disagree. WE might not need cycle lanes on 20 mph streets. But WE already cycle. If you want to get non-cyclists interested then you need to provide safe paths (and not just strips of white paint).

Put it this way, how many people would be happy for their child to cycle to school alone on the road, even if that road was a 20mph?
I wouldn't - but if there was a high-quality segregated lane I'd certainly consider it.

Graham. Maybe indicative if wrong way as above but a real 20 mph zone is not just a speed limit. It needs to be reengineered roads and the lack of road markings is a part of this.

Its all a part of the comprimise. Cyclelanes on 40 mph / main roads yes - and real ones segregated from the traffic. 20 mph zones - car does not have priority / right of way thus no need for cycle lanes.

[url=

video[/url] that shows the common sorts of road layouts in the netherlands - 20 mph zones, minimal road markings cycles both ways down streets that are one way for cars, parking only in marked bays

shows the common sorts of road layouts in the netherlands - 20 mph zones, minimal road markings cycles both ways down streets that are one way for cars, parking only in marked bays

Yeah it was the Netherlands/Dam/Copenhagenize type thing I was thinking of - but (as I understand it) a 20mph zone works on its own there because there are so many people cycling that drivers (most of whom will also cycle) accept and respect them.

But the way they got to that level of acceptance and participation was partly by creating segregated routes and no-car streets to increase the number of people riding.

And they still use a lot of segregation. e.g. here's a nice video from Katja Leyendecker (katsdekker) of the Newcastle Cycle Campaign, that shows segregated cycling round a roundabout!

[url= http://katsdekker.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/frantically-soaking-up-some-cycling.html ]Here's the accompanying blog post[/url]

I'm all for it on busy residential streets but not so much on the arterial roads that have good visibility/no parked cars etc.

What I can't comprehend is how it's going to cost £2.3m to implement?! Surely it's just some signs and a bit of painting. I'd love to see a breakdown of that cost...

I'd love to see a breakdown of that cost...

I'm going to take a cynical guess that around £2.2m is for consultants and project management...

Great idea.

However I would be interested to see the real world stats once implemented that dropping the speed limit by 1/3 will reduce serious accidents and deaths by 1/3.

I bet it doesn't.

Wirral and liverpool have also agreed to make all residential streets 20mph, who is going to enforce it nobody knows, but it creates lots of work for sign malkers and pole errectors, as every street now need signs at start and finish as before streetlights designated 30 mph roads.

We even have roads with signs saying 20mph, a few feet inside the the dead end of cul de sacs, as well as on the entrance to the cul de sac.

It gets my vote.

I've only been there a few times but think any city that adopts this methodology deserves a pat on the back.

The most successful thing I’ve seen to reduce speed limits in towns is where my parents live in Spain. The town is sort of on a grid pattern (mainly) and other than the main street there aren’t really any through roads – at each junction the roads alternate between having right of way and a stop line (although in reality few people stop completely - it's more of a give way). It keeps speeds down really well because there isn’t enough distance between stop lines to build up any real speed, and you’ve got to be constantly vigilant about something with right of way flying out of a side street.

As a driver it’s a bit frustrating sometimes, but on a bike it makes a huge difference – you’re travelling at pretty much the same speed as the traffic sometimes and they seem in far less of a hurry to get past you (or at least until they’re out of the residential area onto a clearer road).

Great idea.

However I would be interested to see the real world stats once implemented that dropping the speed limit by 1/3 will reduce serious accidents and deaths by 1/3.

Average speeds have dropped by just 1mph in the South Bristol 20mph, so whatever happens to the accident stats, it has nothing to do with the speed limit...

However I would be interested to see the real world stats once implemented that dropping the speed limit by 1/3 will reduce serious accidents and deaths by 1/3.

Would that be your benchmark for 'success' then?

It has to be a good thing. More accidents are on 30mph roads than anywhere else in the network, so reducing the speed improves survivability. It calms traffic. It makes going by bike more attractive. It makes public transport a better option. The usual 3 questions for transport are 'is it faster / cheaper / easier for me?' and most people want at least 2 of them before they will change. 20mph might help with pushing people away from cars.

Project this is my point - thats doing it half arsed way ( which is a waste of time) - the only way is to make the 20 mph the default and by removing all most /all of the road signs show this - then 30 and 40 limits have to be signed but overall there is less signage

Ransos - I bet the average is around 15 or less - so a 1 mph drop is significant What is shows is how little time is saved in a 30 mph limit for car drivers

They did around me in Newcastle recently. I really like it and on the whole it seems to work. If the majority stick to the speed limit the minority are often forced to anyway.

Large parts of Cambridge are now 20mph and I can't say you notice any difference. I didn't even notice they'd changed all the signs for the area I live till a few weeks after they'd done it!

People still hurtle down the 20mph high street at 60+ late at night with music blaring from their mum's Clio....

the only way is to make the 20 mph the default and by removing all most /all of the road signs show this

Yep - the old "streetlights = 30" rule is a bit outdated anyway IMO. Loads of roads have streetlights now, so often require signs enforcing different speed limits.

Scrap that and introduce a "residential area = 20mph" rule (i.e. houses/shops by the roadside = 20 unless otherwise signed).

I just doubt that dropping the speed limit to 20mph will make much difference to accident stats (unfortunately).

I was recently in France and loved their approach to speed control in built up areas.

Basically they appear to use road narrowing as a way to control speed, and it works without the need for any signs etc.

Ransos - I bet the average is around 15 or less - so a 1 mph drop is significant What is shows is how little time is saved in a 30 mph limit for car drivers

Reduction was 23.6 to 22.7mph. No effect on casualties. Increase in walking/ cycling in line with general increase across the whole city.

I support 20mph schemes in principle, but this one is achieving nothing.

People still hurtle down the 20mph high street at 60+ late at night with music blaring from their mum's Clio....

This is why the roads need to be engineered so the limits are self-enforcing.
No one is going to do 60mph down a narrowed cobbled residential street with speed pillows when they could be out on the A-roads.

They'll be complaining about STWers speeding on their push bikes, you know.

Quite possibly.

If we want this safe harmonious road system where everyone gets along, feels safer and makes good progress then we may have to give a bit in return and accept that bikes, as well as cars, will have to travel a bit more slowly.

(That doesn't necessarily mean journeys take longer. Moving slower traffic often outpaces faster stop-start traffic and techniques like [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_wave ]green wave traffic lights[/url] can really help too)

I wish someone would have a crack at sorting the timing of the lights on the North Bristol ring road. There has to be a green wave option that would keep a body of cars moving in a more efficient way.

There has to be a green wave option that would keep a body of cars moving in a more efficient way.

It would work for cars - but requires them all to go at roughly similar speeds and obey the speed limit, which sadly rarely happens on UK roads.

Perhaps with a suitably educational advertising campaign: "You can floor it all you like Mr Audi, but unless you're doing 40mph along this stretch you'll find you are waiting at a red light till the cars obeying the limit catch up"

The thing that annoys me with traffic 'calming' is wildly inappropriate speed bumps.

Where I live there's a lot of 20 and 30 zones enforced by these things, I think Hyndburn BC took it upon themselves to single-handedly reduce the EU Tarmac Mountain. Some of them are so big that it's not possible to drive over them at anything more than walking pace without risking serious damage. Whilst I'm no fan of speed bumps generally, if we have to have them surely they should be negotiable at the limit they're trying to enforce?

techniques like green wave traffic lights can really help too

Blanket 20mph with faster signed "arterial" roads definitely seems to be the way forward. Transport network needs major overhaul, upgrade it to v2.0 not just add a few update patches.

Great idea - lets spend a fortune on new road signs etc in a city where we hardly get up to 20mph cos of the traffic jams anyway - much better than spending money on the old peoples homes the local paper is today announcing will be closing (despite protests). Got to get priorities right when there is lack of funds.

Narrowing the roads/widening the pavements is a terrible idea.

They have just done it up Whiteladies Road in Bristol and it makes no sense and just makes it harder to drive up.

But yes, over the years I have rarely gone over 20-25 on whiteladies before the changes. Now you just get overloaded with stuff as they have made it horrible.

And put a bus lane through all the parking spaces which makes no sense.