[Closed] British Muslims.

The vast majority of terrorist incidents today are carried out by deluded Muslims.

less than 2% of terrorist attacks in Europe over the last 5 years have been carried out by muslims

of terrorist attacks on US soil from 1980-2005, Muslims only accounted for 6%

Jive, all these photos and links mean nothing

My bad, I'll just take your word for it, though it was a bit weird that [b][url= http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/nov/30/prince-andrew-wikileaks-cables ]Prince Andrew and Tony Blair intervened to prevent the Serious Fraud Office from investigating the Al-Yamamah Arms deals with BAE[/url][/b], which started during the Thatcher administration and involved Bandar Bin Sultan (pictured with Thatcher and Tony Blair)

Two senior SFO sources confirmed that BAE case-handlers had protested in strong terms at the time at the request for a briefing by Prince Andrew, and insisted that he only be given publicly-available information. "They all thought the request was well out of order," one said. They felt "very uncomfortable".

At the time, the SFO was coming under intense pressure from Saudi and UK arms company lobbying.

[b]The anti-corruption agency were forced to suspend their Saudi investigation by Tony Blair, then prime minister, who said it jeopardised crucial intelligence sharing relationship with the Arab state.[/b]

Nothing to see here:

[img] [/img]

Got one in our running club ,always on about getting more blessings ,wont go to
a pub even to get a race number ,cant get a lift with a solo bloke to a race what a load of doodah and what a sad way to live your life

Two things,

1) I'm not sure as I understand the OP. Are you saying "families defer to religious leaders for religious teachings"? Because if you are, isn't that how most religions work generally? What have I missed?

2) <mod> JHJ, do I have to ban you for a week so that this discussion can flow? You're welcome to take part in the [i]conversation[/i] but if you make another repeat post of something everyone's already chosen to ignore once, I'll do exactly that. </mod>

I'll do what I do... if you feel that requires a ban, then ban away...

You never know though, you might learn something, though you'll probably just stick to fiction as usual

😆

The many many Muslims I know are lovers or haters of the U.K. So different to the natives...

When asked where their loyalties are, it's the Islamic faith and Muslim brothers, not the U.K.

It's not a religion, it's their values and way of life.

It's also the fault of the U.K. of not making them feel welcome, fear and racism.

Tom_W1987 - Member

Instead you are helping to damage the Muslim community even further by attempting to show why it's totally not a problem that 500-1500 Brits have joined ISIS, not only that, but we have a duty to Syrians/Iraqi's to make sure that as few of them join ISIS as possible.

You are going out of your way, clutching at straws even, to try to argue why that discussion should not take place.

No, you're just making stuff up, and not even bothering to try and make it convincing. If you can't counter my actual arguments, and just decide to lie about I'm saying, that's a shame for you but really, why would I keep wasting time with it?

Talking about preventing discussion, while doing your best to prevent discussion, is pretty absurd though.

jambalaya - Member
The vast majority of terrorist incidents today are carried out by deluded Muslims.

😯 ???

It hasn't always been like that and may not be in the future

And isn't now.

It struck me that if, as I deduce, it is a cultural norm among Muslims to simply expect guidance from authority figures as opposed to the Western idea of it being the responsibility of the parent, then this may be the fault line that is causing all the problems

Failure of deduction perhaps? Or is it really just that simple?

[i]it is a cultural norm among Muslims to simply expect guidance[/i]

Woppit hasn't yet shown any evidence for this, so at the moment it's a bit of a made up generalisation/rubbish

Deluded Muslim ? So as we get more information from Austria about the murder of three people by someone driving a car into a crowd and then getting out and stabbing people we discover the culprit is an Austrian citizen of Bosnian heritage. Bosnian = Muslim ? We don't know yet but there is a good chance and this attack mirror those seen in France carried out by French Muslims.

Northwind trying to say that the fact only 1% of British Muslims have joined ISIS so therefore it's not a Muslim problem is flawed logic. Firstly zero percent of non Muslims have joined ISIS from Britian, a number have been recent converts, converted to a radical form of Islam. Secondly counting only those who travel to Syria, Iraq and Elsewhere is significantly underestimating those who support the ideology.

Kurds. So you are a Kurd or a Yazidi or a Shia Muslim and you witness ISIS slaughtering your fellow citizens and you as a terrorist for fighting back. Obviously to win the support of STW and not be seen as a terrorist you are supposed to surrender and have your head cut off.

I wonder who said this eh ? Spot on in my view;

"Not all Muslims are terrorists, but today all terrorists are Muslim"

it is a cultural norm among Muslims to simply expect guidance

Woppits quote. @nick it doesn't apply to all Muslims, it's a generalisation of course. However it's a patriarchal religion where the male head of the household makes the decisions and the village town elders, males again, act as judge and jury. We can see both of these in the postal voting scandals where the male head of the household registered the voters and determined the candidate who'd get the votes. This follows that those lower down the pecking order including all women are not used to deciding issues for themselves. Most of the evidence for this you need you'll find in the Quran.

it is a cultural norm among Muslims to simply expect guidance

Woppit hasn't yet shown any evidence for this, so at the moment it's a bit of a made up generalisation/rubbish

The quote in full, and in context, with a key word highlighted for you:

A spokeswoman for "Inspire", a Muslim-based counter-extremism group, made the point that Muslim parents should bear the responsibility for this, which they are not doing. It struck me that [b]if[/b], as I deduce, it is a cultural norm among Muslims to simply expect guidance from authority figures as opposed to the Western idea of it being the responsibility of the parent, then this may be the fault line that is causing all the problems.

If you're going to quote me, please don't edit me down to do it out of context in support of your own particular prejudice.

Apart from which, the discussion had moved on to the point that the root cause of the relationship between the parent' actions and authority figures was a psychological tendency to shift the blame for their own shortcomings just the same as non-Muslim parents are inclined to do.

Keep up.

Deluded Muslim ? So as we get more information from Austria about the murder of three people by someone driving a car into a crowd and then getting out and stabbing people we discover the culprit is an Austrian citizen of Bosnian heritage. Bosnian = Muslim ? We don't know yet but there is a good chance...

...and it gives me the opportunity to say "blah blah blah blah".

"New Islamic Law sparks controversy in Austra". Story from March where a new law which explicitly states that Austrian law takes precedence over Sharia has sparked controversy as similar requirements don't exist for Christianity and Judaeism.

http://www.dw.com/en/new-islamic-law-sparks-controversy-in-austria/a-18276225

No, you're just making stuff up, and not even bothering to try and make it convincing. If you can't counter my actual arguments, and just decide to lie about I'm saying, that's a shame for you but really, why would I keep wasting time with it?

Talking about preventing discussion, while doing your best to prevent discussion, is pretty absurd though.

There's no point arguing with you as it's a chicken and egg argument, I believe mass movements only occur with considerable support amongst the general population and those that join them already hold opinions that are sympathetic to that movement - you think that mass movements create support for themselves - which runs contrary to the views of many political thinkers from Eric Hoffer to Che Guevara.

Not sure what you're trying to prove Tom, Ukraine has been thrown into chaos by state sponsored terrorism with narry a Muslim in sight
There is obviously a powerful use of Islamic prpoganda to recruit a tiny minority of British Muslims to fight with IS , but IS itself is run not by religious zealots but by ex Saddam generals, so this all come back to that war, a war that a much higher % of torries than labour voted for.
But our media gov and society love to focus on our cultural differences differences, look at the rise of ukip and its dominance of the political agenda or the use of fear of the snp as a tool to win an election.
Government policy has seen the fracturing of our education systems, an obsession with free schools and faith schools is sewing the seeds for an even more divided country in the future, the overhyped fear mongering we are seeing now is just a taster for what these policies will ultimately bring to fruition

[i]If you're going to quote me, please don't edit me down to do it out of context in support of your own particular prejudice.[/i]

My quote and yours appear to be as similar as makes no difference, you seem to want to suggest that Muslims need or want guidance from authority, if you've "deduced" it then from what evidence have you done so?

It's a simple question Woppit, however you seem to want to split debating hairs rather than address the point.

My deduction was from a statement by a Muslim representative of the charity "Inspire". My conclusion simply followed what she was saying and I qualified it by using the word "if".

I also attempted to draw your attention to the later development of this point following a comment from another poster who had, unlike you, something useful to say on the matter which you have chosen to ignore, probably because it does not suit your agenda.

I don't usually take the trouble to re-explain myself in the face of someone so obtuse, but in this case I'll make an exception.

I also see that as usual, an STW thread has resolved into the usual suspects trying to score points off each other rather than actually deal with the subject, so I'll just let you get on with engaging whatever distortion comes to mind that makes you feel happy.

And for that reason, I'm out.

'bye.

an STW thread has resolved into the usual suspects trying to score points off each other rather than actually deal with the subject

Oh the irony given what preceded you saying that

So lets me get this right; one woman from an organisation opines that some Muslim parents seem not to be taking responsibility for their families, leads you to deduce that young Muslims are joining terrorist organisations because [i]not[/i] taking responsibility (by looking to authority for guidance) is a cultural norm for Muslims?

But you have no evidence (other than repeating that's what you've concluded), and don't want to provide any.

Way to win an argument! That's me told... 😆

Being as some on here have clearly been suckered by propaganda, [url= https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/06/24/greatest-obstacle-anti-muslim-fear-mongering-bigotry-reality/ ]this helps put things in perspective[/url]:

[img] [/img]

While I understand the point, starting your data-set for "people killed by muslim extremists in the US" [i]just after[/i] 9/11 rather strips away the context.

If US furniture had suddenly crushed 3,000 people in a single morning right before they started collecting statistics about that, I'd be more understanding of the War on Wardrobes.

😉

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/24/isis-brides-secret-world-jihad-western-women-syria?CMP=fb_gu

Organised religion is madness.

There are dicks who do not take responsibility for themselves all over the world amongst all classes and demographics.

There will always be extremists guised in one form or another....religion and politics is an easy medium for this.

People need to relax and get into a bit of riding, yoga, thai boxing or whatever puts a smile on their faces.....as long as its not blowing people up or gunning them down!

JJ as above gaping hole in that is it's post 9/11. If you fly planes into the WTC and the Pentagon you can expect a world of pain in return. In fact that's exactly what the terrorits wanted, they wanted to provoke the big war (I forget what name they give that in Islam but it has one). In addition the anti-terrorist security of the US and other nations has minimised the threat, there have been many bombing and hijack attempts

As per the graphic above, the attention whore nature of all religious types especially muslims is more annoying than their actual threat.

Why anyone should think I give a **** about someone else believes I have no idea.

While I understand the point, starting your data-set for "people killed by muslim extremists in the US" just after 9/11 rather strips away the context.

Fair point, but if we're going to look at the bigger picture, we have to take global trends into account...

For example, with such a vast military budget, the USA doesn't generally disperse flowers and kisses around the world:

[img] [/img]

That's before you take into account covert ops of the CIA (along with other intelligence agencies, including MI6 and Saudi intelligence), such as [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cyclone ]Operation Cyclone[/url], which led to the rise of Al-Qaeda in the 1st place.

For a bit more context:

[img] [/img]

Though the figures are debatable (as figures always are), the general trend is clear.

That before you take into account anomalies such as [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haifa_bint_Faisal ]Princess Haifa[/url] sending funds to people who aided the hijackers.

After the September 11 attacks, she was investigated for a sequence of payments allegedly made to a Saudi national by the name of Omar al-Bayoumi, who is known to have assisted two of the hijackers upon their arrival in Southern California, and who himself is suspected of being a Saudi intelligence asset. Investigation has confirmed that some of the payments were in fact forwarded to al-Bayoumi's wife, Manal Bajadr; the significance of these payments (and the extent to which they may have assisted the hijackers) is unclear.[2]

In April 1998, Osama Basnan, a Saudi national living in California, wrote to Haifa requesting money for his wife's needed thyroid surgery. Haifa sent Basnan $15,000, although his wife, Majeda Dweikat, was not actually treated for another two years.

At some later point (accounts vary as to when; dates between November 1999 and March 2000 were given, and a Saudi government official put the onset at 4 December 1999),[3] Haifa began sending monthly cashier's checks to Dweikat of either $2,000 or $3,500, transporting them through Riggs Bank.[4] Dweikat signed some of these checks over to her friend Manal Bajadr, wife of Omar al-Bayoumi. The payments continued through May, 2002 and eventually totalled between $51,000 and $73,000. (This sort of charitable donation known as Zakat from members of the House of Saud to Saudi nationals living abroad is not particularly unusual.)

Osama Basnan had been under suspicion for many years. In 1992, the FBI had received information suggesting a connection between him and a terror group later associated with Osama bin Laden. In 1993, there were reports that Basnan hosted a party for Shaikh Omar Abdul-Rahman. According an anonymous U.S. official, Basnan "celebrated the heroes of September 11" shortly after the attacks, and talked about "what a wonderful, glorious day it had been." In interviews and investigations after the attack, Basnan has given sharply contradictory testimony about monies received and his relationship with Bajadr and al-Bayoumi. Basnan was deported on 17 November 2002

Princess Haifa is the wife of this guy, [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandar_bin_Sultan ]Bandar Bin Sultan[/url], Saudi Arabia's US Ambassador throughout Operation Cyclone and 9/11:

[img] [/img]

She also happens to be the sister of this guy, [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turki_bin_Faisal_Al_Saud ]Turki Bin Faisal[/url],

[img] ?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=9QMziWNtBI6whP66vhs4oU8oDbfaBtGaQoiJ28ewjfigV6nlrP9jn1yqTto%2B7HSo[/img]

who was director of Saudi intelligence throughout Operation Cyclone:

Saudi intelligence joined ****stan's intelligence service and the CIA in funding the mujahideen. Turki last met with bin Laden in early 1990[b]*[/b], when bin Laden was interested in aiding against the South Yemen communists.[21] His intelligence agency kept careful track of bin Laden from the beginning of his rise.[22]

In 1993, Turki helped mediate between warring factions in Afghanistan. In early 1996, Sudan offered to extradite bin Laden to Saudi Arabia. Clinton called on Turki to bring bin Laden back to Saudi Arabia for a quick execution. Saudi Arabia denied the request and Osama left Sudan for Afghanistan.

[b]*[/b]I'd like to know more about these [url= http://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/nov/01/afghanistan.terrorism ]allegations of a meeting in 2001[/url]

Two months before September 11 Osama bin Laden flew to Dubai for 10 days for treatment at the American hospital, where he was visited by the local CIA agent, according to the French newspaper Le Figaro.

The disclosures are known to come from French intelligence which is keen to reveal the ambiguous role of the CIA, and to restrain Washington from extending the war to Iraq and elsewhere.

Bin Laden is reported to have arrived in Dubai on July 4 from Quetta in ****stan with his own personal doctor, nurse and four bodyguards, to be treated in the urology department. While there he was visited by several members of his family and Saudi personalities, and the CIA.

The CIA chief was seen in the lift, on his way to see Bin Laden, and later, it is alleged, boasted to friends about his contact. He was recalled to Washington soon afterwards.

Intelligence sources say that another CIA agent was also present; and that Bin Laden was also visited by Prince Turki al Faisal, then head of Saudi intelligence, who had long had links with the Taliban, and Bin Laden. Soon afterwards Turki resigned