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The Secret Barrister has got this spot on in my opinion on Twitter...
https://twitter.com/BarristerSecret/status/1098233995819655168
https://twitter.com/BarristerSecret/status/1098234586260230145
That GQ article is really good. Puts a few things into perspective. Thanks for the link.
Your welcome. With anything that is massively emotive like this I think you've got to remove as much emotion as possible, rather than jumping on popular opinion bandwagons.
If she can get home she should, then she should be fully investigated, if she has committed crimes she should stand trial & be punished accordingly. Hopefully she can also be normalized & re-integrated into society.
They’ll meet somewhere in the middle. Your kids will take on *some* of the Isis Homophobia/Attitude to women etc in response to their kids bad example, and the Isis kids will tone down their’s a bit in response to your kids good example.
Unless you’re unlucky and one of your kids really buys into the whole Isis thing like the two kids the other Shamima Begum won over who are now dead.
But yean, on average things will be slightly less tolerant.
yreah its absolutely likely that my kids would become members of ISIS ?!?, do you realise how silly you sound?
Was about to post that. I absolutely agree with her (The Secret Barrister), that take is spot on.
All these white knights absolutely dying for a ride on her. Shes spoken for you ballbags, and hes a genocidal psychopathic butcher.
Slow your roll homies.. you dont want none of that!
All these white knights absolutely dying for a ride on her. Shes spoken for you ballbags, and hes a genocidal psychopathic butcher.
Slow your roll homies.. you dont want none of that!
There appears to be a superfluous "r" and a missing "c" from your username.
They’ll meet somewhere in the middle. Your kids will take on *some* of the Isis Homophobia/Attitude to women etc in response to their kids bad example, and the Isis kids will tone down their’s a bit in response to your kids good example.
Unless you’re unlucky and one of your kids really buys into the whole Isis thing like the two kids the other Shamima Begum won over who are now dead.
But yean, on average things will be slightly less tolerant.
yreah its absolutely likely that my kids would become members of ISIS ?!?, do you realise how silly you sound?
So grooming doesn't work in terms of Isis recruitment, in fact it's silly to suggest it would. A lot of people agree with you.
All these white knights absolutely dying for a ride on her. Shes spoken for you ballbags, and hes a genocidal psychopathic butcher.
Slow your roll homies.. you dont want none of that!
Can anyone translate this to English please?
The only thing I’ve taken out of 12 pages is that I like the word deradicalised.
We have to face the fact that we are allied with America, the biggest death economy in history but
Hands up who would be happy to have their kids sitting next to her at an Ariana Grande concert..
I am not in any way agreeing with the sentiment that
"she should be **** shot" but a question for those who are saying that the full British judicial process should be followed. Should that apply to those who ordered the targeting ,bombing and execution of the "Beatles" and other Brits who joined ISIS and were dispatched without a trial? Innocent until proven guilty and all that?
Poor John.. he was groomed from a young age. He thought he was doing a good thing!
Unpalatable as it is to think of her back on uk soil it's deeply naive to think that banishment is the solution to our terrorist risks she'd just be a danger from slightly further afield. There is no shortage of vulnerable disaffected kids waiting to be radicalized and her story simply fuels this.
And anyone who thinks their kid is at risk of radicalisation by association needs to understand that radicalisation relies on vulnerability, so the solution is to make sure your kids are resilient.
Bangladeshis to home sec, she's your problem bro!
Poor John.. he was groomed from a young age. He thought he was doing a good thing!
No. Jihadi John was killed in a military operation in what I would say was a war time action within a war zone. I know we had not officially declared was which does bring drone strikes into a grey area, however US and UK governments made a decision based on what they deemed reliable intelligence. His death probably saved other lives. I do think that ordinary rules do not apply in the heat of battle so to speak.
If he had surrendered or was captured or discovered in a refugee camp he would have been removed from a war zone and been entitled to the same rights as Begum.
Bangladesh said no too. "But she'll be stateless!!" The bleeding hearts scream. She can stay with Islamic state. That's where she wanted to be. That's where she should stay.
Bangladesh said no too. “But she’ll be stateless!!” The bleeding hearts scream. She can stay with Islamic state. That’s where she wanted to be. That’s where she should stay.
Islamic state isn't a state. She is in Syria and I fail to see why she should be Syria's problem. We are in contravention of the 1961 Convention to reduce statelessness.
I can imagine people rolling their eyes when basic human rights are mentioned.
I think the failure to face up and deal with a problem in the UK that festered and grew in the UK is cowardly.
The folk wishing to strip people of UK citizenship and boot them out of the country back where they came for even the most minor infringement of the law cant have it both ways.
Jihadi john its believed, was killed in an ilegal drone strike on foreign soil athy.. you cant have your cake and eat it.
Jihadi john its believed, was killed in an ilegal drone strike on foreign soil athy.. you cant have your cake and eat it.
What are you even trying to say?
Jihadi john its believed, was killed in an ilegal drone strike on foreign soil athy.
I did say that. You must have missed it.
No. You said it was a grey area and told us your opinion. I told you the facts.
You dont know what you want.. apart from a go on Begum.
I told you the facts.
I mean, I dunno, but I'm not sure you and facts are the best of bedfellows.
Too late for "John", but Kotey and Elsheikh *could* come back to the UK to be de-radicalised and tour schools to tell kids how bad Isis is:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43601925
deadlydarcy
What are you even trying to say?
Not very much...
dirk_pumpa
Member
Thats enough trolling for today.. night night internet 👋Posted 21 hours ago
Ah, sorry I'd missed that. My bad for even trying to engage.
You dont know what you want.. apart from a go on Begum.
Is that shocking and comment as good as you have got?
The illegality of operations such as drone strikes on Jihadi John on foreign soil is an issue separate from a citizens right to a fair trial and innocent until proven guilty.
The situation described above is closer but not identical to that faced by authorities when encountering the Westminster Bridge attacker. It should be possible in certain situations to shoot to kill without a need to capture and charge someone when a serious and imminent threat is being made to endanger innocent lives. This is where the scenarios are similar.
They differ with regard to the fact that UK military is over reaching its jurisdiction hence the illegality of drone strikes and a separate debate.
If Jihadi John was to be captured or the Westminster Bridge attacker captured then they should have the right to a fair trial. There is no conflict in this regard.
Good programme on R4 earlier, with actual experts, including anti-terror officer who went after the girls when they 1st left.
Funnily enough nobody suggested that the bleeding hearts wanted to 'have a go on her'
- So debate not up to stw standards,but still worth a listen
“But she’ll be stateless!!” The bleeding hearts scream.
“But she’ll be stateless!!” International law screams.
<mod>
@dirk_pumpa you're skating -very- close to having some time off the forum. Play nicely.
</mod>
I think if they reviewed athys case theyd probably come to the same conclusion.
The british government's attitude over this confuses me*. At a time when I am repeatedly reminded in my job that 15yr olds who are becoming embroiled in gang activity involving drugs and firearms in our own country are victims of criminal exploitation and shouldn't be vilified and criminalised (and yes that is pretty much the policy at ground level), they are trying to strip this young woman of her British citizenship and refuse her entry to the country that she previously called home. Of course, her actions were abhorrent but what she did, she did when she was a child and we shouldn't underestimate how sophisticated IS tactics will be in influencing young minds (in the same way a child is groomed by an online paedophile or a gang who direct a 15yr old to be involved in serious criminality) . She was influenced by people while living in the UK and to deny her access to return home (and if circumstances suffice to stand trial) is appalling frankly.
*not really. I'm not naive enough to not realise that this is a cynical tactic to exploit the public hysteria and gain some much needed public support from the right.
Yes, there is definitely a big element of blame the victim. As for removing citizenship, can we start to do that for anyone else that acts in a way we don't like?
Yes, there is definitely a big element of blame the victim
I'd say the victim is the guy who's head was in the bin she saw..or the many other victims of their barbaric regime.
If law dictates we should have her back we should, and if we do i hope she goes on trial. But lets not paint this girl as the victim please
I’d say the victim is the guy who’s head was in the bin she saw
Me too, and her justification for that was that "they" would have raped and killed *her* if they'd got to her. ...and yet when she was finally captured she wasn't raped or killed. As far as we can tell she was treated very well.
As for removing citizenship, can we start to do that for anyone else that acts in a way we don’t like?
As long as we don't leave them stateless, seemingly yes. Probably something you want to do sparingly or everyone will start doing it.
At a time when I am repeatedly reminded in my job that 15yr olds who are becoming embroiled in gang activity involving drugs and firearms in our own country are victims of criminal exploitation and shouldn’t be vilified and criminalised
In your job maybe. ...but in general they are (literally) criminalized and they are vilified.
It's possible for them both to be victims tpbiker, obviously one crime far worse than the other.
Regardless as a British citizen she should be brought back here and tried. If javid has enough information to perceive her as a threat or about crimes she's committed then he should put her in court. She's our problem we should deal with her.
I'm sceptical about his motives myself, he's recently lost 2 cases where he was unable to do this to 2 Isis fighters? who were genuine Bangladeshi dual nationals, im sure he knows this will be lost on appeal, but he has a voter base to appease.
If she had left the UK over 16 it would be different.how 'Groomed' she was the police already have info but she willingly left the UK to sign up to a horrendously brutal group of religious nutters.
If as an adult she's committed crimes there (and it was such a brutal regime she may well be complicit) then lock her up, put her kid in care & move on.
Trying her on the basis of newspaper interviews & populist outcries is a crappy way to dispense justice.
We should be better than that.
We should be better than that.
We should, but ... Sajid Javid ...
We shouldn't have removed her citizenship unilaterally, we should have come to an agreement with Bangladesh to take her. Why is it okay for us to shirk our responsibility for someone made in the UK and pawn her off as Bangladesh's problem?
As for removing citizenship, can we start to do that for anyone else that acts in a way we don’t like?
Only for people that are a funny tinge, less British than the rest of us. At least Norman Tebbitt allowed foreigners to take a "cricket support" test.
I’m sceptical about his motives myself, he’s recently lost 2 cases where he was unable to do this to 2 Isis fighters? who were genuine Bangladeshi dual nationals, im sure he knows this will be lost on appeal, but he has a voter base to appease.
It's a delaying and vote winning tactic. Possibly *might* encourage her and her husband to go to the Netherlands instead of the Uk.
If as an adult she’s committed crimes there (and it was such a brutal regime she may well be complicit) then lock her up, put her kid in care & move on.
I don't think anyone wants to put her on trial and/or lock her up. Syria (quite reasonably) want rid of all their foreign fighters, the less nutters they have on their soil the better. The Uk don't want to try her and lock her up because then we have to keep her and she can spread her hate in prison, and then who knows where once she leaves. the only argument is as a deterrent, how the hell is prison a deterrent for someone who literally joined a genocidal death cult and regards death as desirable martyrdom. I don't see the benefit to either the Uk or Syria of putting her on trial in either country.
Trying her on the basis of newspaper interviews & populist outcries is a crappy way to dispense justice.
Nobody is advocating trying her on that basis, or any other. All the countries involved are trying to do is avoid having this family in their society.
we should have come to an agreement with Bangladesh to take her
Cos UK is sheeeet hot at working out international agreements at the moment,
Take her in for us?
No
Take her in for us?
No
Take her in for us?
No
Take her in for us?
No
Repeat for many months.
A senior lawyer was on R4 this morning saying that he can only think this is Sajid Javid trying to look tough. In doing so Javid has created a bigger problem; the girl does not have Bangladeshi nationality and the Bangladesh government wants nothing to do with her so the British Government has broken international law by making her stateless.
I've been swinging between viewpoints on this, mostly against the girl but this has made me realise that we should be doing the Christian thing and admitting her, albeit with all the due processes of law, and attempting to reeducate her, not shun her.
I have less sympathy than I did for her after listening to the anti-terror officer & deradicalisarion worker on R4 last night.
But my opinion of Javid has sunk even lower this looks more & more like populist politicking.
All the countries involved are trying to do is avoid having this family in their society.
Just as she needs to take responsibility for what she has done, she is a British citizen, we have to take responsibility for her.
Just as she needs to take responsibility for what she has done, she is a British citizen, we have to take responsibility for her.
Yup, unfortunately so.
Javid has sunk even lower this looks more & more like populist politicking.
Which is exactly what he was aiming for, some nasty right wing political finger prodding.
He was hardly know to the general public before his position (taken up after another hysterical MP) and now he feels he has some power he’s acting like a string puppet followed by all the other racist right wingers the UK has to offer.
Its what you voted for, you can hardly blame him for acting in the manner you chose for him to follow can you.
I hate ITV with a passion, but it was on this morning and some right nasty vocal gobshite was literally talking over every other comment and proclaiming “she knew the right answer etc.)
Which is essentially what right wingers do, vocalise thier own small minded opinions over the top of any conversation going.
Good thing about this topic is it once again divides the country further into secular society where division is favoured over co-operation.
Thats the Tory’s for you.
I have less sympathy than I did for her after listening to the anti-terror officer & deradicalisarion worker on R4 last night.
Was that moral maze? I had to chuckle at her naming the Boy "Giver of Wounds". Given the situation you'd think that she might have chosen Nigel, or Dave or Graham.
I'm actually surprised somebody in the government flicked the light switch on for a moment. Her uncle in Luton will not be happy now as he could have been lifting the rent for her new furnished apartment from the treasury. It will only be a matter of time when the starry eyed in downing street will cave in and overrule the decision.