Forum menu
I was just pointing out the silver linings that exist in every cloud
Sure, and it's welcome. Gods know, we could all use some silver linings right now.
What I was trying to highlight though is that there isn't parity here. It's like finding a fiver on the floor on the walk home from your dad's funeral.
I don’t think a lot of people really understand what the principle of anarchy is.
Plenty info out there to find out 🙂
I’m curious* why you’d want anyone out of a job for any reason, to be honest with you. Seems like a shitty thing to desire.
I'm vegan because I don't agree with the exploitation of animals for human utility. It stands to reason that I'd want anyone in the meat and dairy industries out of a job. Kind of the same as wanting people who make landmines or cluster bombs out of a job too. The difference of course is that if I had my way, those people would receive a universal basic income which means losing those jobs wouldn't be the crisis it is now in a cut-throat capitalist society.
Or for that matter a butcher? Little schoolboy Darren goes to his careers advisor and tells them “I want to cut up animals into bite-sized chunks,
You'd be surprised. I remember a couple of lads in my school who had exactly those ambitions.
Plenty info out there to find out 🙂
AKA: "do your own research."
I’m vegan because I don’t agree with the exploitation of animals for human utility. It stands to reason that I’d want anyone in the meat and dairy industries out of a job.
I'm vegetarian and I wouldn't dream of pushing my choices or values on anyone else. The meat industry revolts me and I think there will come a time where we realise it's unnecessary and evolve out of it, but I wouldn't run into KFC screaming that they're all murderous bastards. I don't think it "stands to reason" at all, rather I think that's a bit of a leap.
I wonder idly whether you'd have had the gall to say that to the face of my grandad who was a dairy farmer (along with most of my family going back generations). He was a big lad and he'd almost certainly have sparked you out for it. I mean, he's long dead now too so it's moot, but it's easy to make sweeping statements when you remove the personal element.
TL;DR - The issue here isn't the people doing the jobs, IMHO. Maybe we're just splitting hairs now.
Moving farming/fishing to other countries because of Brexit isn't necessarily going to result people in the UK eating less cheese/eggs/milk/lamb/beef/bacon/fish/mussels ... it'll just result in the UK having less say over how our food is produced, and the way creatures are treated as part of that process.
@dougie
On Cheese and other products, is the UK-EU still bound by recognising the designated origin regs?
PDOs and so on continue but there is now a parallel UK scheme. If you had an EU one last year you now have an EU one and a UK one. To get one your product needs to be sold in the relevant area, your own nationality is irrelevant (WTO non discrimination requires this). A subtle effect of brexit is that a product sold in UK not EU, or vice versa, may have more problems getting protected in both areas than it used to. Similarly (loosely) for registered trade marks.
ETA as for infringement, sales in the UK infringe the UK right not the EU one and vice versa. So the headline answer to your question is yes.
but I wouldn’t run into KFC screaming that they’re all murderous bastards
I woudn't either, I'm way too old for that sort of thing these days, but i'm not going to mourn the loss of those jobs, quiite the opposite in fact, I'd be celebrating.
I wonder idly whether you’d have had the gall to say that to the face of my grandad who was a dairy farmer
I think everyone in the meat/dairy industries understand perfectly well that people like myself would like to see those jobs disappear. It's nothing personal, just the obvious result of a moral/political position against the exploitation of animals. And yes I have said that to many people working in them, and they're not particularly susprised. They know we vegans (well, some of us anyway) want them to be out of business, that's why they don't like us much.
and the way creatures are treated as part of that process.
I think you misunderstand my position. I'm not primarily concerned with how animals are treated and don't want to make the process 'better', so having a say in it is pretty irrelevant.
I honestly don't care about your position, I was just pointing out the effect of offshoring our food production if Brexit damages our industries as you hope it will. UK shoppers will still buy this stuff... they won't be put off from doing so by it being produced elsewhere. UK farming and fishing will suffer... but the slack will just be picked up in other countries.. it won't result in a great many more people eating the way you do.
TLDR: we won't be looking at getting rid of jobs, just offshoring them
Thanks Greyspoke
it won’t result in a great many more people eating the way you do.
I don't expect it will in the grand scheme of things, but anything that might make it more expensive, less available, or any other negative impact is a good thing IMO, and brexit is doing quite a good job so far in this respect. Aside from anything else it'll annoy the farmers and fisherman who bizarrely seemed to think brexit would be great for them, so from a remainer point of view it's a double-win 🙂
I think everyone in the meat/dairy industries understand perfectly well that people like myself would like to see those jobs disappear. It’s nothing personal
I think that if someone was taking such obvious pleasure in me becoming unemployed, I'd take it personally.
Particularly if all the sacrifice of my livelihood achieved was to flood the country with cheap hormone-injected beef and chlorine-washed chicken, because thats all your 'victory' will achieve in this instance.
Far from freeing the ickle fwuffy baa-lambs to frolic gleefully in the fields with neer a care in the world, it'll involved them being hung upside down by their feet and given a ****ing massive injection of steroids, before being force-fed into a mincer while still alive. I think thats how the American food standards we'll soon be importing generally work
I think that if someone was taking such obvious pleasure in me becoming unemployed, I’d take it personally.
I think I'd be questioning why some people think my job shouldn't exist and finding out why. There's an endless list of professions/jobs throughout history which no longer exist because society now deems them unacceptable. I'm sure the people who sent kids up chimneys or down pits were offended when someone said they shouldn't do that but it didn't stop those jobs being done away with. And no, the 'well if I don't do it, someone else will' defence is not a defence.
Anyway, doesn't really matter because ironically if things carry on as they are it won't be vegan extremists who lose people their jobs in the meat industry, it'll be their own stupidity in voting for brexit. It's quite funny really.
but I wouldn’t run into KFC screaming that they’re all murderous bastards
I woudn’t either, I’m way too old for that sort of thing these days, but i’m not going to mourn the loss of those jobs, quiite the opposite in fact, I’d be celebrating.
I think if you gave the impression that you would like them to have other jobs rather than not have jobs at all people may find your attitutde a little bit more relatable. You may well want them to have jobs but this isn't the impression that you give.
Vegetarian BTW so I'm not exactly down with the whole animal mangling undustry either, I'd just like them to be able to have jobs that support them and their families rather than lose them entirely and then have someone basically saying "well you deserved it" and taking pleasure in their suffering. Lots of people may not like the job that they have, and maybe have moral issues with it, but can't afford to not do the job or be unemployed between jobs.
I don't know if you are like this in real life but you come across in this thread as having a startling lack of empathy. You want political change? It is easier to bring people with you than beat them until they go where you want.
I think I’d be questioning why some people think my job shouldn’t exist and finding out why.
You're right. I'm sure that would be everyones first reaction. Wondering how on earth I was going to cover my future bills and feed my kids would take second place. A period of reflection on the ethical practices of cheese production would be at the forefront of my mind. Obviously.
So we can also add Disaster Veganism to the Disaster Socialism you're such a strong supporter of now?
Any other practices of which you personally disapprove that you'd like to bring your own 'Shock Doctrine' too?
Or will us all being bankrupt, unemployed, ideologically-cleansed vegans suffice?
Any other practices of which you personally disapprove that you’d like to bring your own ‘Shock Doctrine’ too?
Well if you're asking we could also get rid of all the pointless middle management, finance and various other 'corporate' jobs which don't really provide any useful function in society. We create all these jobs in order to keep people busy, which then creates all sorts of mental health crises because the people doing them know they're pointless or morally questionable. We could get rid of all of these, provide people with a UBI to remove the threat of poverty, and we could all work much less, in jobs we enjoy, and be happier as a result. What do I know though? Seems you and most others would rather we all be miserable doing jobs we hate which directly or indirectly damage the environment in which we live.
I don’t know if you are like this in real life but you come across in this thread as having a startling lack of empathy.
I've definitely got way too much to be honest. I quite envy people who can shrug and say to themselves 'that's the way it is' and 'shit happens'.
Seems you and most others would rather we all be miserable doing jobs we hate which directly or indirectly damage the environment in which we live
Miserable? In a job I hate? Damaging the environment?
I'm happy as a pig in shit doing a job I absolutely bloody love, which I like to think provides something in which people take a bit of pleasure, and I can't see having any significant detrimental effect on the environment. And I doubt I'm alone in that. I do use a lot of paper and wooden picture frames, but they grow on trees. I'm not hosing down fields with toxic waste or anything.
Mate, have you stopped and thought that maybe this whole militant, vegan lefty thing isn't actually doing you any good in the long run?
I’m happy as a pig in shit doing a job I absolutely bloody love
Well obviously I know that. Doesn't help or detract from the vast majority who aren't in that position though does it? We invent pointless jobs to keep people busy and compensate them by giving them money, which they then spend on useless consumerist crap to give themselves a brief shot of dopamine or endorphins to distract them from their otherwise miserable empty lives. And it works, so they buy more crap and have to do more pointless work to feed their addiction. It's an endless destructive cycle, which when you scale up to billions of people results in things like climate change, wars and all sorts of other horrific stuff. The solution to this is obvious, get rid of the pointless joyless activity and give people the means to support themselves without having to sell their labour, enabling them to do something more useful and fulfilling than the jobs they would otherwise be doing.
Anwyay what's this got to do with brexit? 🙂
Mate, have you stopped and thought that maybe this whole militant, vegan lefty thing isn’t actually doing you any good in the long run?
It's never done me any good tbh. Sometimes I feel like I've taken the red pill like in the matrix. 🙂
I think I’d be questioning why some people think my job shouldn’t exist and finding out why.
The job will exist, it’ll just be held down by someone somewhere else in the world.
And, many people in Britain love working in farming and fishing. They’d rather not have to chuck it in and go and work in an Amazon depo. Mostly outdoor jobs are becoming rarer and rarer in the UK, and some people really struggle to feel fulfilled working indoors all the time.
Anyway, doesn’t really matter because ironically if things carry on as they are it won’t be vegan extremists who lose people their jobs in the meat industry, it’ll be their own stupidity in voting for brexit. It’s quite funny really.
So is this the kind of gloating about Leave voters losing their jobs that you often accuse others of?
Liz Truss has just signed us up for a massive trade deal with....... Albania.
ta da.
Isn't Albania the next country expected to join the EU? Soon? And is the new (and possibly short lived) UK deal with them any better than the deal we had with them as EU members? In what way? Just asking...
I don’t know if you are like this in real life but you come across in this thread as having a startling lack of empathy.
I’ve definitely got way too much to be honest. I quite envy people who can shrug and say to themselves ‘that’s the way it is’ and ‘shit happens’.
Might I suggest that you find a better way to present it then (or check a dictionary to make sure empathy means what you think it does)? Because you really don't come across as someone who cares about others, and certainly not someone who care about others who may not be in 100% agreement with you.
Liz Truss has just signed us up for a massive trade deal with……. Albania.
ta da
I assume this has some sort of policing/security/modern slavery aspect in the background to it? Is Albania not supposed to be a major organised crime hub on the periphery of the EU? There's definitely an Albanian link in the Essex lorry deaths.
Because you really don’t come across as someone who cares about others
Because I don't see jobs in the meat industry being lost as a bad thing? The people who lose those jobs should be supported, hence my unwavering support for UBI and other things which enable people to empower themselves to do what they want. Maintaining and supporting a system which forces people to spend a huge amount of their time doing stuff they don't want to do or which causes harm to others or the environment isn't showing empathy, it's the very opposite.
So is this the kind of gloating about Leave voters losing their jobs that you often accuse others of?
See above about the need to support them too. I don't see anyone proposing much for anyone losing their job as a result of brexit.
The uk will slash carbon emissions by making everyone too poor to buy meat and consumer goods.
There are lots of diverse ways to work outdoors and farm/be involved with farming. Just a few examples:
https://farmtransformers.org/bradley-nook-farm/
I assume this has some sort of policing/security/modern slavery aspect in the background to it? Is Albania not supposed to be a major organised crime hub on the periphery of the EU?
It’s not an OC hub as such, they all leave Albania to undertake organised crime as there’s nothing in Albania itself. Those Albanians who chose to be criminals can be quite, violent, prodigious and well organised though, very strong clan culture in their ocgs.
My employer is £170k down against plan already this calendar year due to increased shipping/paperwork expenditure. We manufacture using EU raw materials then export 90% of what we make.
Gotta say, I find the relentless attacks on Dazh uncomfortable and disheartening. He has points of view, some I agree with, some I don't, but he's always honest, courteous in every post I've seen and will engage with anyone regardless of how they address him.
It's all gone a bit parish council - I put up with enough of that shit on Facebook, differing points of view are generally well expressed on here, can we not be adult enough to agree to a difference of opinion on here without having to try and burn the other side?
Jamba was honest and courteous too, but the honesty didn't stand up to fact checking and the courtesy reminded me of my own levels of courtesy when I worked in a call centre, superficially impecable, superficially.
We've been going at this for five years over two substantial threads. Anyone with half a memory can take the attitudes of the thread regulars back to the start and could do a good police-style profiling job on them.
I'm aware baring grudges isn't a good thing and self-censor/moderate more on this thread than any other. Whilst it's ****ing irritating Brexit hasn't cause me enough personal pain to take my gloves off. But there are a good few remainers on here who are suffering real pain and they know those who express the attitudes that have led us to where we are now. If in addition the attacks from Brexiters/Brexit apologists get specific enough to directly target individual STW members I am happy to be highly indulgent towards those under attack if they retaliate.
So, given what I know about Welshfarmer and his partner I fully understand his last post and think it balanced and reasonable under the circumstances.
I know we're off topic and it's getting personal but Brexit was always going to get personal, because it affects people personally.
I’m aware baring grudges isn’t a good thing....
.... So, given what I know about Welshfarmer and his partner I fully understand his last post and think it balanced and reasonable under the circumstances.
People (and I include myself) just can't help themselves, can they. Not to go all Terminator II, but we really are all ****ed. 🙁
Anyone else think that the fact spam is being advertised on the TV is just a tad ironic given the fact we've just left the EU, brave new world and all that.
As a meat eater (one who has reduced meat consumption considerably over the last few years) i am sure meat consumption in the UK will gradually reduce. Like many things it will change over time as attitudes also change.
It's funny Daz, you've spent the last couple of years on here espousing how we shouldn't call leavers idiots because that's not going to get them onside. And now here you are saying how happy you'd be if everyone in farming or on the B-Ark should be out of work and on benefits. Is that going to win them over, do you think?
The mods may wish to have a word.
Not me, I've thrown in the towel and taken a holiday for the sake of my own mental health. Use the Report Post link if you want someone (else) to review it.
Cougs, not worth reporting Ed; past posts show him to be opinionated and never willing to accept being in the wrong.
Can fully understand why you wouldn't wish to waste your time on his vacuity; having said that, without intervention he will continue.
The addition of an emoji doesn't change the stupidity and ignorance of his post.
It’s funny Daz, you’ve spent the last couple of years on here espousing how we shouldn’t call leavers idiots because that’s not going to get them onside. And now here you are saying how happy you’d be if everyone in farming or on the B-Ark should be out of work and on benefits. Is that going to win them over, do you think?
See, I think that's unfair. Daz's stance on leavers was hard for me to swallow but I understood the truth of it, as unpalatable as it was. But I never got the sense that he celebrated the loss of meat farming jobs - there's a bunch of folks working on the basis that he's really happy that people have lost their jobs, when I read it more that he wouldn't mourn the loss of people that work in an industry that treats animsls really shitty and screws the environment. The two things can be separated.
The mods may wish to have a word.
Not me, I’ve thrown in the towel and taken a holiday for the sake of my own mental health. Use the Report Post link if you want someone (else) to review it.
Well, I'm really sorry to hear that, but thank you so much for making this a great forum to frequent, and enjoy the break. 🙂
* In case that reads as sarcastic, please note it is meant with the utmost sincerity *
Thank you.
there’s a bunch of folks working on the basis that he’s really happy that people have lost their jobs, when I read it more that he wouldn’t mourn the loss of people that work in an industry that treats animsls really shitty and screws the environment. The two things can be separated.
That's an insightful take on it. Sorry Daz if that's the case and I got the wrong end of the stick.
Not sure whay Welsh Farmer thinks but the post brexit approach to agriculture seems to be to turn Farmers into "grounds keepers" basically to keep the UK looking nice? Then set trade deals that allow any old shite to be imported, those well off can always buy organic hand crafted UK artesian products while the masses get uber cheap processed products from all over the world.
Everybody is happy.
i am sure meat consumption in the UK will gradually reduce
The recent proliferation of US-style ‘megafarms’ across the UK seems optimistic and I presume they’re putting their investments where people’s mouths are, so to speak?
Although the pandemic seems to have caused a (temporary?) drop in global meat-consumption. Another thread maybe. Meanwhile, Brexit is shit.
That is possibly just changing the way the market is supplied and not a reflection on the U.K. market at least, growing?
Edit, allegedly Generation Z are 25% vegetarian and Boomers around 5%
Huh, also from the same source, allegedly the Vegan diet is the most expensive of the 4 looked at and vegetarian the cheapest. With meat and pescatarian in between. Guess that’s tied into lower manufacturing volumes on some products commonly consumed. My experience of buying vegetables is that they’re generally pretty cheap.
https://www.finder.com/uk/uk-diet-trends
<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">That’s an insightful take on it. Sorry Daz if that’s the case and I got the wrong end of the stick.</span>
Seems I've missed some stuff? I said I couldn't mourn the loss of jobs in the meat industry, in fact I might well celebrate it, although it's not really worth celebrating as any jobs lost in the meat industry due to brexit would still be a drop in the ocean. Jobs do not equate to people though, and I've been crystal clear that anyone in the meat industry (or anywhere else for that matter) who lose their jobs due to brexit, veganism or whatever should be supported.
Jobs come and go depending on societal and market trends. Should we preserve jobs just because lots of people have them? Of course not, I don't see anyone wanting hundreds of thousands of miners to get their jobs back. Or the makers of landmines or chemical weapons, or child chimney-sweeps etc. The problem is not the loss of jobs, it's the lack of support mechanisms for workers who are affected, which is why we need UBI or some other practical method of compensating workers who lose their jobs through no fault of their own.
but the post brexit approach to agriculture seems to be to turn Farmers into “grounds keepers”
There's huge potential for rewilding to replace the agricultural economy with jobs in forestry, conservation, tourism and other activities which would be enabled by allowing farmland to return to it's natural state. Instead of farmers being one of the primary agents in environmental destruction and climate change they would be the frontline in the fight against it. That seems to me an altogether more rewarding and productive career than farming and killing animals for human consumption.
I’m a big supporter of UBI. If Brexit makes my industry unviable in the UK, and my job disappears, I will be personally gutted, even if I was financially supported by the state/others. Work isn’t just about income. I would feel very different about my industry slowing down worldwide causing me to lose my job. Societies and demands change. But a political choice to choke off my industry, and destroy my job, in the UK, and switch to UK consumption of nonUK equivalents, supporting my job being done elsewhere instead, would make me very bitter towards those supporting and cheering such a move. Understandable if some kick off when presented with that cheering. Let’s keep away from talk of violence though, please.
@dazh - my brother's a farmer and we were talking yesterday about possible future changes to the sector. One thing (among many I presume) being discussed is providing a framework for industry to carbon offset by them planting trees. It does strike me as being very much "virtue signalling" though.
Also rewilding is complex: when do you rewild back to? 1900? 1800? 1000? Certain upland landscapes, such as the Lakes, would be scrubland, would that still attract tourists and walkers etc. if all you could see on a fell walk was the five metre circle of scrub and brush around you? Not saying it couldn't or shouldn't be done but what you get might not be what you wanted.
Rewilding certain areas is much like moving to electric cars, you are just moving the underlying problem around either within this country or overseas.
We could make big gains in food production and thus associated environmental problems just by reducing our wastage rate, currently something ridiculous like 30% of all food goes to waste.
But a political choice to choke off my industry, and destroy my job
Well sometimes decisions have to made for the greater good. Brexit is not that greater good, but sometimes the ends justify the means. It's a valid point about those jobs going elsewhere, but saying 'if we don't do it someone else will' isn't really a defence.
Let’s keep away from talk of violence though, please.
Violence? Have I missed something?
Also rewilding is complex: when do you rewild back to? 1900? 1800? 1000?
It's not a case of going back to a particular date, but a case of allowing the land to revert to whatever natural state it would be in without human intervention. In the UK that means forest in the vast majority of areas. It's a longterm project though, and our generation won't see the benefits as much as our kids and grandkids will. And as for the lakes and scrubland, I don't see that as a bad thing. There are projects in rewilding upland fell terrain which have had huge success..
https://twitter.com/BordersForest/status/1346361943968403456?s=20
I was reading the other day and this passage made me think of the mentality and the people behind the Brexit project.
<span class="shmreader-quote" title="Science Quotes" data-shmreader-quote-uuid="06FAFE8A82014EC381653E5644B8B7E4">In these colleges the professors contrive new rules and methods of agriculture and building, and new instruments, and tools for all trades and manufactures; whereby, as they undertake, one man shall do the work of ten; a palace may be built in a week, of materials so durable as to last for ever without repairing.</span> All the fruits of the earth shall come to maturity at whatever season we think fit to choose, and increase a hundred fold more than they do at present; with innumerable other happy proposals. The only inconvenience is, that none of these projects are yet brought to perfection; and in the mean time, the whole country lies miserably waste, the houses in ruins, and the people without food or clothes. By all which, instead of being discouraged, they are fifty times more violently bent upon prosecuting their schemes, driven equally on by hope and despair:
Written some 300 years ago but somehow utterly apt for now.
Violence? Have I missed something?
Looks like a post has been removed Dazh. I don’t think it was meant literally anyway. Just talk.
I don’t think it was meant literally anyway. Just talk.
I see. Oh well, wouldn't be the first time I've been threatened by someone working in that industry. Doubt it'll be the last either.
It’s not a case of going back to a particular date, but a case of allowing the land to revert to whatever natural state it would be in without human intervention
In many areas that would take centuries if ever happen as there are no native trees left to seed
you would also get a lot of scrub, heather and bracken
You cannot just "allow the land to revert" as its not going to do so. The amimal mix has changed from pre human times and that has huge effects on regeneration. climate has changed, you have to include people in the mix
this means it has to be a managed process and thus you need an end point to aim at.
Well sometimes decisions have to made for the greater good. Brexit is not that greater good, but sometimes the ends justify the means. It’s a valid point about those jobs going elsewhere, but saying ‘if we don’t do it someone else will’ isn’t really a defence.
You sound like Fatcha in 1983
In many areas that would take centuries if ever happen as there are no native trees left to seed
Except they don't do that. They give it a head start by tree-planting and the introduction of key species to accelerate the process. There's been a lot of success around the world with trophic rewilding. I'm no expert but there's plenty info out there. Here's one from a quick google..
https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rstb.2017.0432
I'm not sure dazh has it the right way round
Forcing people out of work BEFORE a UBI is in place is just putting families into destitution out of spite?
If you rewild and set a side agricultural land for othrr use you are shifting the burden of damage elsewhere in the world, not to mention air miles etc.
UK agricultural land on the whole is dead (by this i mean it requires huge volumes of fertiliser to actually get anything to grow) and in many cases now due to climate change volumes of water not previously required.
We have a problem no none with a brain can doubt that... but shifting to another country is not the answer.
UBI and a reduced working week will become inevitable in the second half of this century... automation is removing jobs from many industries and this will increase at a phenomenal rate simply because it makes more profits in the medium to long term.
Traditional skills like Accountancy, Financial Services, any form of commercial driving, fruit/veg picking, retail, Hospitality, manufacturing are all consigned to History before the end of this century.
UBI and a reduced working week will become inevitable in the second half of this century
Chinese will have no interest in funding that, probably exterminate us instead.
UK agricultural land on the whole is dead (by this i mean it requires huge volumes of fertiliser to actually get anything to grow)
If we've already damaged the land to the point where we can't grow anything without fertilisers, then that's even more reason to stop doing it. In any case I doubt that's true. The land will recover, it might take a bit more time but it's plainly wrong to say it's 'dead'.
Forcing people out of work BEFORE a UBI
Or find them new jobs by creating new industries as I mentioned above with rewiliding. Farming animals isn't the only thing we can do with land. We've been subsidising farmers for god knows how long in any case, so it would be better to shift those subsidies to rewilding and other activities.
UK agricultural land on the whole is dead (by this i mean it requires huge volumes of fertiliser to actually get anything to grow)
If we’ve already damaged the land to the point where we can’t grow anything without fertilisers, then that’s even more reason to stop doing it. In any case I doubt that’s true. The land will recover, it might take a bit more time but it’s plainly wrong to say it’s ‘dead’.
Correct, most land in the UK will grow plants even though the soil is frequently considered "degraded", the issue we have is that we grow monoculture and desired yields require supercharging growth through fertiliser. We also sterilise the soil with herbicide, fungicide, pesticides etc which further degrades the soil.
UK farmland, if managed correctly, could be restored fairly quickly but yield would be lower and produce would be less "clean" (weed seed in grain, etc) than industry require at the moment. We would also have to take our chances with pests and diseases, although mixed planting (within or between crops) and broadening germplasm variety of crops could mitigate some of the issues alongside increased ecosystem diversity helping to suppress disease.
We still need to feed our population?
You can't just rewild, importing food just moves the problem.
Also it takes a long time for soil to rebuild its fertility- many many years.
UBI and a reduced working week will become inevitable in the second half of this century…
Unless of course people vote otherwise. If you’re ruling out governments just allowing people to starve and work unnecessarily long hours, I wouldn’t. Nor would I rule out people voting for that, even when it is they and their families that feel the pain. They may well do just that to make others suffer more, and because they buy into nonsensical arguments (as many have in the UK in recent years… see this thread and its predecessor).
You can’t just rewild, importing food just moves the problem.
The theory is that we'd need less land overall. Although I'm not sure if in the UK alone we have enough land suitable for vegetables that would allow us to end up with the same proportion of imported food.
Trade deal with Ghana announced today by Truss.
Farage heralding the return to empire commonwealth.
(Unless any of them want to come here of course.)
68% down.
Gove isn't very popular, shockingly...
I've heard rumours that crossings for freight are running at capacity due to the extra checks, the customs checkpoints couldn't cope with any more freight coming through. If we're at that stage already with that little amount of movement then we're royally screwed when things pick up or the full checks arrive in July. This sums things up nicely:
The government response is just deny, deny, which really says it all.
‘We’ve had enough of exports...’
Please tell me that ^^^ is a newspaper headline!
Is it time for Labour to be brave enough to start properly pointing out that Johnson and Gove “got Brexit wrong”? If you wanted Brexit, and still welcome the fact we are not EU members, can you really look at this government, and the way they have delivered Brexit, and be thinking “well done, job done”? Can the government now be criticised openly on Brexit without the charge of “ignoring the will of the people” sticking to those who want to stand up for farmers, the fishing community, UK manufacturers using components of mixed origin, musicians, students, SME specialist retailers, hospitals, consumers, lorry drivers, cancer patients, NI shop keepers…?
Just checking 🙄
Is it time for Labour to be brave enough to start properly pointing out that Johnson and Gove “got Brexit wrong”?
In case you hadn't noticed, labour aren't doing too well right now. Behind in the polls, Starmer having to apologise to Boris and generally looking a bit lost, producing a laughable policy report suggesting they dress smarter, and you want them to give all the tory press the opportunity to call them remoaners again?
@dazh - they are behind (Politico has them 3% behind) but have made massive ground since the election. There is an argument that they should be ahead because of how poor this government is but I think that so many of the press outlets are sympathetic to Johnson and his chronies that many people still believe the propoganda that Brexit is a success and they have done a good job against Covid.
Just an observation, I don't have an affiliation to any party in particular.
and you want them to give all the tory press the opportunity to call them remoaners again?
I'll take that as a no.
So, Labour can't hold the government to account for failing to deliver on Brexit?
I don't know a single person who voted Leave and thinks the government are doing well... as regards exports, Northern Ireland, students, fisherman, farmers... there must be the opportunity to focus on the fact that Johnson and Gove have "got Brexit wrong"... there is no "remain" to remoan about... we're no longer EU members... but now the government have to deliver... or can they fail on everything without being challenged by the opposition... because... what... the press won't like it? I see the press pointing out that Northern Ireland, exporting, fishing and farming are all in a mess... even the "tory press" are doing this... so... a chance to get the government on the ropes... with the support of people who welcomed Brexit, but still want their government to deliver?
Starmers problem is not him its the lack of a first class front bench, he simply doesn't have any robust individuals. This has been highlighted by Ed Milibands destruction of Boris - no disrespect to Ed but if he is the most effective political opponent you have after Starmer then there is a problem.
He cant win without a better team.
Starmers problem is not him its the lack of a first class front bench
Miliband is the only one on the front bench even remotely performing and Starmer looks every bit as clueless as the rest of them. Funny really because I'm sure we were promised that the professionals would be back once Corbyn was gone. Anyway wrong thread, but to get it back on topic Starmers decision to shut up about brexit is the only good one he's made.
He’s right to shut up about EU membership. Holding the government to account for the mess they are making doesn’t require a return to preBrexit arguments and sentiments… those that are pleased we have left the EU still want the government and opposition engaged on fishing, farming and exports more generally… our entertainment industry undergoing the double whammy of Covid and no visa waivers for tours… the impact on Universities and students… and then there is the Northern Ireland situation, which can’t just be ignored. And of course the perhaps more petty problems our newly segmented market will create for consumers. Pinning the upcoming Rip-off Britain narrative on this government should start now. Voters will notice that stuff, even if they don’t understand the bigger picture problems.
Hmm must admit to having a chuckle over the original Boris lies of making us back into a great trading nation and the reality is now just moving something 20 miles is a total nightmare.
(Just noticed the mixed metaphors 🙂 good ole Boris sums it all up as the boat/plane/rocket you always wanted)
...newly forged United Kingdom on the slipway...
When you think about it, that's the perfect metaphor given that forged components are generally solid, heavy lumps of metal that will sink without trace as soon as they're chucked in water. 🙁
Great photo of Benny Hill in that Spectator piece.
That bit in Boris' speech about NZ and Wales is a great metaphor for Brexit as a whole. Yes Wales may be technically closer to Beijing than NZ in a straight line, but by boat, which is how you'd send most stuff? Twice as far.
There’s still, even after the vaccine fumble, a lot of pro-EU sentiment out there. Surprising. Hopeful.
newly forged United Kingdom on the slipway
I read forged as "fraudulently made to look like something hhat it isn't ".......... Probably not what he was aiming for. Still, nice of him to finally admit it.
even after the vaccine fumble,
Would there have even been a fumble if we were still members and hadn't taken a chance that the vaccines were viable?
The amusing thing about the vaccine "fumble" is that the UK is spinning it as an EU failure. Anyone watching closly would have noticed that the Art 16 lasted until AZ and Pfizer gave some assurances on delivery dates which removed the need for it.
We won't ever know what went on behind the scenes but you can be sure it was the final nail in the coffin of any EU good will towards the UK.
In other news that tit Justin from the Darkness was on Sky earlier from Zurich whinging about touring costs under the new rules. Questions complicit tit journalist didn't ask:
"
You are worth about 8million - is that why you have moved to Switzerland?
Why is a man worth 8 million moaning about everything except tax costing double in Switzerland?
If moving everything to tour from the UK is such a headache why don't you do what you do when you tour the US: hire European trucks, kit and people that won't need any form filling at all?
Do you and your family speak German?
Do your kids go to a Swiss German school?
"
Some people still haven't understood, no more cake Justin.