If Starmer whips his party to abstain then I can’t see too many voting for the deal as the mps likely to have done so were excised at last GE
I can think of one person who’s been spared the usual tedious routine of voting against the party whip over Europe, as a result of recent events 😂
I can't help but feel that if a Labour leader had said straight away on 24/06/16 "This is a monumental mistake and everything from now on should be geared towards damage limitation" then there would be a significant groundswell of opinion, even among leave voters, that this is a terrible idea.
Trouble is no one had the balls. Don't want to upset the racists/xenophobes that they suddenly realised were are a major part of their support.
Bollocks to Brexit.
Trouble is no one had the balls. Don’t want to upset the racists/xenophobes that they suddenly realised were are a major part of their support.
But you can't just ignore what a large part or even a majority of your supporters want. You're supposed to represent the views of the people who vote for you, aren't you? This is a rhetorical question, not necessarily my personal opinion but it's a hard question to answer definitively.
Molls - over two thirds of labour voters voted remain. If you look at labour members and MP’s all but a handfull (Jeremy Corbyn/Kate Hoey/Frank Field) voted for remain.
A labour leader representing his party membership, MPs or voters would have campaigned for remain, and would definitely have supported the damage limitation option on the morning of the 24th
However, the leader of the Labour Party at that time was a lifelong Brexiteer and emerged from his 2 month hibernation to demand that Theresa May immediately trigger article 50.
Following that he facilitated Brexit at every turn
And it’s happened. It’s done. We’re not EU members. We have left. There is no rollback. It’s no deal or whatever deal can be salvaged this week. Grab it, to minimise the damage of the next few years, and then propose improving on it at the next general election. Seems the most likely approach for the opposition now. Oppose no deal by voting for any deal in the final hours, no matter how bad that deal. Any deal is better than no deal. I’m all for sitting back and leaving the Tories to it instead… but that’s high stakes… looks like that’s not what’s coming.
Binners you make it sound like it was simple. It really wasn't. Whoever was in charge would have been screwed, bound by the realities of democracy and what had happened.
Sometimes people who are acting like tw*ts need to be told to stop acting like tw*ts.
Funny, though, all these puffed up Brexies get all antsy when one tells them they are being stupid. Almost like they are a bit, well, snowflakey....
The upcoming economic implosion is ****ing hilarious, isn’t it?
Binners man chill out! There really isn't much point getting upset at stuff that you have no control over. Yes, economic armageddon is shit, so are a lot of other things, most of which we don't have to deal wiith in this country thankfully. If you think this is bad wait til climate change gets going. You'd best learn to laugh at it or find some other coping mechanism because this is going to be a tea party compared to what's going to hit us in 20-30 years.
Ahh… Dazh constantly dishing out the negativity while telling others to not dwell on it.
= ;87)
https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/1128/1180993-brexit-tony-connelly/
Food chain disruption and the death of the land bridge
Theyre just cutting out the middle man
Another demonstration that the EU will just get on with business and leave us to stew in our little England flag-waving nonsense
https://twitter.com/billykellehereu/status/1332266149543890944?s=21
^^^^
That's the EU just saying "ok, we'll just bypass those idiots, then".
But remember. They need us more than we need them, right?
Laughable.
We’re providing a valuable service.
In a global pandemic when there’s not much to smile about, the rest of the world must be absolutely laughing their tits off at us.
As Covid tears economies apart, other countries are trying to stem the damage, while we’re busy loading up the shotgun and getting ready to give our own feet both barrels
Incredible stuff really.
We've become a reef basically, a hindrance to shipping that needs to be navigated around.😁
Dazh constantly dishing out the negativity while telling others to not dwell on it.
Negativity or realism? I decided a long time ago that the world was f****, right around the time that it became clear we had no intention of doing anything about climate change because it would disrupt our incredibly important, cosseted and completely undeserved luxurious lifestyles. It's the same with brexit, where you have two sides who are completely missing the point. One side is in denial of the fact that nation states are becoming increasingly irrelevant, the other wilfully ignorant of the disenfranchisement of millions of people who feel like they haven't benefited from this brave new world.
Back then when I realised all this I was first very angry, and then very depressed. But I also realised that we're not that special, and have little control over anything, so there's not much to be gained in getting angry about stuff. I learned to look at the world as a detached observer, and when you do that it really is quite amusing and astonishing what we humans get up to. 🙂
Two pionts about the ferry thing:
Surely it is better in terms of CO2 emissions to have more of the journey from main EU places to Ireland by sea? So why did this not happen sooner? Why was all that freight clogging up the UK motorway network emitting CO2 and causing more capacity to be needed, which emitted even mmore CO2 in its buliding? Would it not be cheaper as well (less fuel consumed)? What am I missing here?
It is not "the EU" that is doing this. It is independent companies (that could be listed anywhere and whose shares could be owned by anyone) taking commercial decisions. The market is doing this. The EU couldn't stop it even if it wanted to. The UK has decided, as a state, to intervene in the sea transport market to deal with Brexit disruption (I don't have the details, just news stories I recall). As far asI am aware, the EU hasn't done so..
‘The Market’ has just decided that the UK is a parochial little backwater to be by-passed
Somewhat predictably
‘The Market’ has just decided that the UK is a parochial little backwater to be by-passed
Somewhat predictably
Just think. What if we were a member of a large trading bloc that meant we could insulate ourselves from some of the worst excesses of an open market with economies of scale and cooperation.....
^^ Impossible, would never happen.😁😟
Why was all that freight clogging up the UK motorway network emitting CO2 and causing more capacity to be needed, which emitted even mmore CO2 in its buliding? Would it not be cheaper as well (less fuel consumed)? What am I missing here?
Probably some odd reason why it was cheaper by 5p to go through Dover.
As above, this is the market reacting to Brexshit and making use of the opportunity.
Even as a remainer I do still have hope that entrepreneurial UK might actually now rearrange how and what we make/dig/build/do for ourselves. My worry is that this doesn't happen overnight and the depression will happen before the recovery.
There have been some interesting reports on France 24 and Euronews about the consequences for NI trade, deal or no deal. The need for vetinary certificates for cheese for example. The result will be higher prices for products from mainland UK and difficulty competing with products from south of the non-existant border. Four years back all this stuff was dubbed "project fear", strikes me it's worse than feared.
Well, Dec 1st and I get to apply for a special Right to Remain permit here in snowy Sweden, quickly put in place by the government to ensure that British citizens that were working here were not left in the shit. After that, I will continue my aim of working towards citizenship which, if all goes well, could be applied for as soon as April.
After that, no further lost sleep about what will happen to me. Oddly, it’s not been the U.K. doing the hard work, but the Swedish. Which just reinforces my decision.
I've spent the last couple of weeks calculating our tariff costs (we import cheese from all over Europe) for one particular supplier in Rungis as our terms are Free Carrier (most suppliers are doing DDP) and one is insisting on Exworks which is major head ache particularly if we have to sort a vet out over in France. Most cheese is about 150 - 220 Euro per 100kg on WTO tariffs. Vignotte a big seller for us is >40% fat and commands the highest cheese tarriff at 220 euro per 100kg. This one supplier alone is (working on the last 12 months sales (poor during the pandemic obviously) going to cost us in the region of 10k per moth in tariffs.
I've then been getting a lot of requests from customers for the commodity codes for all our products, turns out there are a good number of our customers who are subsequently exporting. One ships chandlers will be paying extra price rise on olives (16% tariff) that we'll have to cover the cost of and then when they export to Ireland they'll have to add another 16% (possibly). Their customers will (as above, be circumnavigating the UK land bridge.)
Also speaking with hauliers in the last couple of weeks, there's still a lot of work to be done on the part of some UK companies to provide details for deferred payments, so there will be queues at the ports as the paperwork won't be completed.
Surely it is better in terms of CO2 emissions to have more of the journey from main EU places to Ireland by sea? So why did this not happen sooner?
1) Some of the trips taken probably dropped stuff off on the way through the UK
2) It'd almost certainly be quicker to go via land - that ferry trip will take at least 24 hours I reckon probably more.
The UK has decided, as a state, to intervene in the sea transport market to deal with Brexit disruption (I don’t have the details, just news stories I recall). As far asI am aware, the EU hasn’t done so..
Both Ireland and Holland governments did… years ago… back when we were still arguing about how Brexit meant more free trade with new partners, and continued frictionless trade with the EU.
I still find it ironic that the only country at this end of Europe with a government failing to prepare on time for the ‘new arrangements’ of 2021, is the one led by people who pushed for this, and decided when it would happen.
More sunlit uplands...
https://twitter.com/grahambsi/status/1332941298236579843?s=20
It's all got an air of complete panic about it now, hasn't it?
This lot literally couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery and they've been tasked with probably the biggest logistical and political mission in this countries peacetime history.
I'm sure it'll all be fine
I still find it ironic that the only country at this end of Europe with a government failing to prepare on time for the ‘new arrangements’ of 2021, is the one led by people who pushed for this, and decided when it would happen.
Yes, but those people were lying about what it really meant.
in EU places to Ireland by sea? So why did this not happen sooner?
There’s always been a ferry from Ireland to France, Cherbourg and roscoff but before it probably didn’t make economic sense for hauliers hence these French ports. It is significant that they are now sailing from Dunkirk which is much more freight-centric.
I'm looking forward to ventas springing up along the N.I. border. Despite Spain and France both being in the same free trade area there are lots of ventas at crossing points selling things that have different taxes applied in France and Spain. Supermarkets instead of watchtowers.
I suspect it actually getting thru to Johnson and co how much of a eff up this is going to be. Suspiciously quiet in the UK media given how critical things are but dribs and drabs are coming out.
I agree that the media are silent.
It seems there is news about anything *but* Brexshit.
Come on all you starving doomsters and gloomsters, all you creative types that we threw under a bus in March, get behind the Festival of Brexit
https://twitter.com/TeleTheatre/status/1332977014089928704?s=20
That's a bit like the Chinese state charging for the bullets they use to execute prisoners.
@edukator NI is a sea border, they will still effectively be part of the EU.
I agree that the media are silent.
Or rather there's nothing much to report until negotiations conclude? I just saw Barnier on telly and he said 'the work continues'. Hardly front page stuff. I'm sure we can all look forward to whole newspapers packed with every last twist and turn, rumour and comment once there's a conclusion. Until then we'll all have to make do with the barely disguised excitement on here and other places about just how bad its going to be.
barely disguised excitement
You are odd. Your replies on this subject increasingly sound like Alison Pearson, or Andrew Neil.
Come on all you starving doomsters and gloomsters, all you creative types that we threw under a bus in March, get behind the Festival of Brexit
I'm not even sure we can rely on this circus act to turn up.
It’s all got an air of complete panic about it now, hasn’t it?
This lot literally couldn’t organise a piss up in a brewery and they’ve been tasked with probably the biggest logistical and political mission in this countries peacetime history.
I’m sure it’ll all be fine
These are the same people we are relying on to organise the emergency vaccination of 60m people so we can reopen what's left of our economy and advance to the sunlit uplands. Fills you with confidence, doesn't it?
I just had to look up who Alison Pearson was so that tells you how much I'm interested in this whole pointless debate. Everyone needs to move on, there are bigger and more important things to worry about. That's basically my view on it all.
how much I’m interested in this whole pointless debate
Yet… here you are…
This is how you present facts!
The problem for Thornberry, and her approach, is that all trade deals will be compared to the no trade deal situation, rather than the trade deals they replace. All will be sold to the public as "benefits" even when (and let's be under no illusions, this will be the case for most future trade deals) they are less beneficial to the UK than the EU deals they replace. This will be an easy sell... because everyone from Pearson to Dazh will help to cover the emperor up... rather than point out he is naked.
squirrelking
Free Member@edukator NI is a sea border, they will still effectively be part of the EU.
Posted 2 hours ago
So if a British retail group stops selling certain products in NI because of costs/complications of the sea border people will have to go south of the border to buy them. An example given is consumer electrics from say Japan which will be available in the Republic through EU distribution systems but not in the north as considered too much hassle/expense by the UK distributor..
But depending on value when they import them back into NI they'll be liable for duties according to whatever rate is in force (WTO set, maybe)
We're going to need barriers and customs agents to make that work. Unless, some sort of honesty box is put in place maybe?
I'm sure the grown ups have got it covered.
