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and them getting an equal platform to experts and the like
I don't have an equal platform to experts and have not tried to state any facts. I'm asking questions on a forum, this place isn't the news or a widespread platform, its to ask questions, rightly or wrongly.
I wouldn't consider anyone on this thread an expert on Brexit either, no-one is. We have experts on other threads, the coronavirus one for example, nobody on this thread has exhibited as much expertise as individuals on that one.
Dougiedogg - massive investment from government - apart from the tories will not do this it falls foul of not only the EU deal but also the japanese and chinese ones IIRC.
Maybe they can catch the langoustines using drones and then put them on the Blockchain. You know, do things differently.
Glib comments aside it is again so disappointing to see how this is playing out. Played for politics with the unfortunate feature that unlike other failed or delayed projects the failure doesn't mean life goes on, but that these barriers to trade are now baked in by the "total victory" approach. And we watch businesses die a slow death while ****ers like Hannan say we should scrap regulations. Not as a fix, but just because.
Christ alive these people.
I’m not saying its (immigration) as easy as before but it is still possible, we have just changed the market we appeal to.
Like who?
https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/who-migrates-to-the-uk-and-why/
Non-EU migrants, the 62%, key point 1 and EU migrants of course who fit visa requirements. My point is that migration will continue it has not been stopped as a previous poster stated.
Don't tell the brexit voters that or we'll have to leave the rest of the world as well.
I’m “emotive” because for +4 years I’ve had to listen to folk spouting stuff, sh*t and/or lies about stuff they haven’t a clue about and/or don’t fully understand – and them getting an equal platform to experts and the like.
I'm just as angry as you but there's a time and a place - this isn't it.
I’m not saying its (immigration) as easy as before but it is still possible, we have just changed the market we appeal to.
It's also less attractive. You could previously decide to move here from the EU, and you were on the same terms as everyone else. You also had security, because you had the right to be here, which. meant you had confidence to move your family and settle down. If you lost your job, or didn't like it, you could find another.
However, if you were here on a visa, that's tied to a job so that meant if you lose your job you have to go home - or if you really don't like it you also have to go home. This is ok for young people who are mobile but not great if you have to uproot your children from their schools and the environment they've been born into and know. In practice, the people who can move and have confidence of support from their employers are the middle class high earners. That means that the opportunities to move abroad, experience cultures and even earn better money are much more limited if you aren't well off, which is a terrible shame.
The less attractive nature of migration under the new visa scheme means that employers will have to pay more for those roles so that people accept the downsides. That'll cost our businesses more, and companies that can't afford it won't be able to take advantage of skills. This will disadvantage small businesses, particularly specialist ones. And these are the kind of businesses we want to encourage. Something will need to be done to address this.
The sh*t hit the fan now.
https://amp.theguardian.com/business/2021/jan/08/percy-pigs-in-ireland-hit-by-brexit-red-tape-as-m-and-s-warns-of-tariffs
The less attractive nature of migration under the new visa scheme means that employers will have to pay more for those roles so that people accept the downsides.
They don’t need to accept the downsides.
I know a few bonafide geniuses in the IT world, from nonEU countries… they were working here, but have since moved to Germany, Netherlands and Sweden. If you’re in demand, you want to bring your kids up somewhere their lives are secure. We are less inviting than elsewhere. The RoW can see what is happening here. Messaging and new laws aimed at the anti-immigrant domestic sentiment that delivered Brexit and this Vote Leave government is heard worldwide.
My point is that migration will continue it has not been stopped as a previous poster stated.
Lets take nurses as an example. the NHS used to recruit a lot of nurses from the EU mainly from spain where due to their internal politics they train far more than they need. Now we no longer can. Nurses do not meet the visa requirements for coming to the UK IIRC. EU nurses no longer want to work in the UK. We still do not train enough nurses and there are massive shortages. No one is going to come from the antipodes or the US to nurse in the UK so its indian sub continent, philipines etc where us taking their nurses damages their healthcare.
Of course this is also expensive and bureaucratic instead of just jumping on a plane. so immigration in nurses has not been stopped but by heck its reduced dramatically with a lot of barriers that never used to be there. Who suffers from this? the spanish nurses who can no longer get jobs and the UK patients who do not have nurses and the fqr away countries that get their staff stripped.
A few years ago one NHS trust ran a recruitment campaign for ITU nurses from the carribean. So many nurses from one island moved that the islands only ITU had to be closed
akira
Full Member
Don’t tell the brexit voters that or we’ll have to leave the rest of the world as well.Posted 13 minutes ago
Ah, this is why Johnson was talking about more investment into space then. The U.K. is leaving the world and heading into the Solar System, free to deal with all the other open markets outside Earth. Britannia will soon rule the [gravity] waves, unchained from the gravity well.
Nurses do not meet the visa requirements for coming to the UK IIRC
But in theory that could be changed - the point about the new immigration system is that it can respond to demand. I'm not supporting the government on this by the way just to be clear - just pointing out the intended operating model.
We are less inviting than elsewhere.
Yes, and this will lead to a long term slide, IMO. I mean yeah, we could start investing in education, training and industrial expertise but we won't, will we? Britain never has done anything like this in the past, so why would we start now? We'll just adjust the immigration requirements and attempt to keep bringing people in, cos it's the easiest way. Sod the long term consequences. Each government will just change the numbers a bit.
the point about the new immigration system is that it can respond to demand
No, the point is that it doesn’t respond to demand. I think what you mean is that it can be changed when/if there is the political will… which may be influenced by changes in demand.
^^ Changes in demand or simply to appease a percentage of the populous unfortunately.😕
But in theory that could be changed – the point about the new immigration system is that it can respond to demand.
... And changed back again. And made different in the devolved countries. And changed again.
So last week you are A-OK but then take a new job and move hospital; but wait! You cant! 'Cos the point system you entered with is not the same as it is now so it's 'sling yer bloody hook' time.
"We're moving to the UK as daddy's got a new job!"
"Hurrah! How long for?"
"**** knows."
In true Brexiteer fashion, the line that frictionless trade would be maintained has now become 'we always said there would increased paperwork and checks at the ports'
No, you didn't. You said the polar opposite of that, you lying ****s
That should be challenged and an independent press would do that. There is no fully independent mass media any more; the BBC are scared they will have the license fee removed and have a political appointee as a DG. The other news print media is right wing, broadly supportive and/or steered by people that Boris has to please.
The internet? Why the hell would they give a shit if people disagree with them in the comments section of the Guardian or Mumsnet?
Kelvin,
Not a glib response in my view. A factual one backed up by what we're doing in the business I work in. We service and support niche manufacturing equipment and many of our customers are on the mainland. It's clear that in order to ensure our future we need to diversify. This is certainly something we could have done while in the EU but didn't. We have a product we've prototyped, proven, and offered to our r&d group (US) and for 'reasons' they've turned their nose up at it. My boss has stick his hand in his pocket and bought a 3d printer which we're using to make a very lightweight CNC mill which will help facilitate low level manufacture of this thing. It'll go we reckon.
This isn't a model everyone can follow, it's not something that can be applied to the country's economy as a whole, but if it keeps our office going or even growing I'll take that.
I'll join in the pissing and moaning about brexit and the shower of ****s that we laughably refer to as government but that's not going to pay my mortgage.
That this discussion is revolving around data shows how weak the arguments are around 'what we could do differently'.
It's worth remembering that our economy is built on making things/fishing - apparently - (which we have to sell), or providing services (which someone needs to buy).
Both those elements now have significant barriers in front of them that will hinder businesses and will deter investment in the future. That's why Mrs Thatcher wanted the barriers removed.
Offering to sell outfits information around what pills we're popping and how it turned out is not a replacement for trade in goods and services and isn't really what anyone would call an effective long-term strategy. If you want deep data you'll find Google/Facebook/Twitter know far more about us than our institutions do already.
We can and should be proud of our country without boo-ing and hiss-ing at the pantomime villains over the water, or dissing their culture. I'm cool with them, I expect them to be cool with me.
We can nuture talent, invest in ideas and grow businesses and we always could - that's what Hope and Cotic and Bird and Stanton and loads of other bike and non-bike related businesses did and will continue to do. The people who didn't always found a reason to explain why they didn't and I don't see any reason why that won't continue.
All this suggests that one way or the other in the long run we will have to get back into bed with the EU, at least in the form of a EEA and Customs Union. The arguing will boil down to what we call it and whether it sounds sufficiently 'British', even Churchilian. Let's say it ends up as the 'GBEA'.
I have no problem with companies being innovative and coming up with all sorts of products that haven't yet been thought of, particularly in the green space where the future clearly lies. If that's built off exploitation, weaker employment rights and a poorer quality of life when it is already a struggle for many, which I suspect it might then I will continue to argue in favour of us being in the EU.
On the flipside, I would welcome any ideas from here that increase worker protections, improve our environment and our quality of life. That's the Brexit promise - I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for evidence it's even possible, let alone going to happen.
Dougiedogg – massive investment from government – apart from the tories will not do this it falls foul of not only the EU deal but also the japanese and chinese ones IIRC.
+ every member of the WTO.
At least the NI conundrum was solved… no need to have to think about that any more… it was easy after all. How could we have doubted those who said it would be so simple?
‘we always said there would increased paperwork and checks at the ports’
Not half (from another forum):
Nearly all the groupage lorries are on stop.
Full loads are fine. For example BMW sending gearboxes to Swindon.
But mixed freight isn't going anywhere.
A typical parcel trunker lorry could have 3000 different consignments on the same load. That is 3000 new bits of paperwork to check. 3000 EORI numbers to be chased.
And that applies into NI from Scotland as well.
We can and should be proud of our country without boo-ing and hiss-ing at the pantomime villains over the water, or dissing their culture. I’m cool with them, I expect them to be cool with me.
If only more people had taken that mature approach over the last 20-30 years.
Spare a thought for the poor Brits Abroad.
John Lewis and Fortnum and Mason have stopped shipping to Europe.
mariner
Free Member
Spare a thought for the poor Brits Abroad.
John Lewis and Fortnum and Mason have stopped shipping to Europe.
That will be the Brexit voting father of one of my colleagues who has had to apply for Spanish citizenship because he spends most of the year in his Spanish home. ****
Spare a thought for the poor Brits Abroad.
John Lewis and Fortnum and Mason have stopped shipping to Europe
No Waitrose sausages in the British Supermarket in Portimão today 😔 my Saturday fry up won't be the same. Got some reduced priced black pudding though but the shelves were definitely looking bare.
You can’t export fresh sausages from UK to EU now. The Irish will be sorting you out for fry ups soon enough.
kelvin
Full Member
You can’t export fresh sausages from UK to EU now. The Irish will be sorting you out for fry ups soon enough.
First real upside?
More frozen sausages for lawns over here and the EU?
First real upside?
More frozen sausages for lawns over here and the EU?
Unfortunately the massive lawns of the people most deserving of the frozen sausage treatment will be behind 20 foot 10,000 volt electric fences. Whilst patrolled just outside by armed minimum wage slaves that have been coerced into the work through desperation. See also orchards, fishing lakes, woods, moats etc.
I see the government's lifted the restriction on the EU-banned bee-killing nicotinoid pesticides as well.
I see the government’s lifted the restriction on the EU-banned bee-killing nicotinoid pesticides as well.
Have you got a link for that - god knows what shit they are rushing through under cover of Covid deaths and the American chaos, needs bringing into the light!
https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/beet-growers-have-a-neonic-seed-treatment-for-2021.336040/
Reading between the lines it appears to have come from the top down (ie British Sugar have asked for it rather than the farmers themselves). A bit of background reading suggest BS were very anti-brexit as they fear for the survival of the industry as the protections against cheap cane sugar from Brazil etc will corner the UK market. Maybe the UK Gov have acknowledged this for the time being and are acting on this basis? Either way, it is not really surprising and is hopefully very very limited and subject to strict conditions as the article would suggest.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/mar/27/brexit-sugar-beet-cane-tate-lyle-british-sugar
Tate and Lyle were huge supporters of Brexit and are also big donors to the Tory Party
Tate & Lyle: Brexit-backing firm that donated to Tories set to save £73m from trade change
And so the frog-boiling begins. The slow, almost imperceptible drip-drip-drip of regulations and rights being quietly binned
I see the government’s lifted the restriction on the EU-banned bee-killing nicotinoid pesticides as well.
This is where the divergence starts, it ticks the divergence and sovereignty box for the brexiteers and throws a much needed bone to the farmers. Just at the expense of the environment eh?
Yes, but Tate and Lyle are the complete opposite to British Sugar. Sugar from Tate and Lyle isn't grown in the UK and has to get past EU quotas of non-EU produce to get here. Hence why they were so pro Brexit. And why British Sugar (which grows sugar beet in the UK and is threatened by T&L imports post Brexit) are keen to have treated seed so that the UK sugar industry doesn't collapse.
[strong]fingerbang[/strong] wrote:
This is where the divergence starts, it ticks the divergence and sovereignty box for the brexiteers and throws a much needed bone to the farmers. Just at the expense of the environment eh?
There is nothing to stop the EU also introducing the same emergency authorization if they need/want to. But their sugar industry is not yet threatened by Tate & Lyle!
"Nurses do not meet the visa requirements for coming to the UK IIRC"
But in theory that could be changed
Could be changed for nurses. What about their family members?
British Sugar have asked for it rather than the farmers themselves
The NFU were lobbying for this.
The govt's own website says this still:
Unless the scientific evidence changes, the government will maintain these increased restrictions post-Brexit.
So where is the scientific evidence to support this change?
reluctantjumper
Full MemberSo where is the scientific evidence to support this change?
They didn't say pesticide or insect health science, it's the political science that's changed.
I see the government’s lifted the restriction on the EU-banned bee-killing nicotinoid pesticides as well.
Hmm that's not exactly what's happened, is it? Bee honest now.
Maybe somebody here can advice/help me - as private person let say I want to send gift to a friend in any EU country - so he will have to pay VAT upon receiving item? Even if I paid VAT on that item already in UK? I guess as private person I cannot reclaim Vat back.
What if item is USED but value is still over £200-£300 ? He will have to pay VAT based on value?
And other way around - if I buy used item on eBay from private seller in EU country ill have to add 20% VAT to pay here upon receiving ?
That Keegan article still over plays “the deal”… it reads as if we have left the Single Market and are de facto still in the Customs Union. We are not. Companies and individuals in EU countries are still selling to, and buying from, each other, in one market place. We’re a different market that requires all the hassle, delay, costs, and many of the tariffs, that 1970s style exporting/importing entails.
Back at work this week and have been trying to work out what this deal means to the company I work for. Have said before that we supply components to the rail industry world wide and are big players in Europe.
We have a sister company in india, which was set up to deal with with the Asian markets and also pick up the slack if we in the UK have capacity issues. Increasingly in the last couple of years have been the sole manufacturer for certain UK & European projects.
Now, India and the EU have a trade deal which costs around 2.6% on our goods from India. Any components that originated in the EU (i.e. we shipped to India) that duty is reduced to 0.8%.
Those deals no longer apply to the UK as we are now a third party country.
You would think that this would be good for UK manufactured goods.. Think again.. The margins of UK manufactured goods is so tight that the only way we can make any sort of profit from UK built product is part build in India and finish it off in the UK. The difference between UK & Indian salaries is so great that we can even afford to fly the finished goods halfway around the world.
Leading up to the so called deal we feared that it would the last nail in the coffin for manufacturing in the UK, other than servicing our products in the UK market. Probably losing around 100 UK skilled staff.
This deal has complicated an already complicated process that we are still trying to determine the full effect on the UK plant. Until that happens, everything we are bidding on is quoted to be manufactured in India.
If course, this isn’t just about goods, and isn’t just an “essential unavoidable result of Brexit”… the EU has spent years offering us ways to work more closely together after transition, but our government chooses maximum damage internationally for maximum “control” at home…
Erasmus is the most obvious refusal of our government to cooperate in mutually beneficial measures post Brexit, but here’s another…
https://twitter.com/thenitinsawhney/status/1348011999201030152?s=21
“It is usually in our agreements with third countries, that [work] visas are not required for musicians. We tried to include it, but the UK said no,” an EU source close to the negotiations said.
TBH they don’t discriminate, they’re currently killing everyone 🙂
We’re a different market that requires all the hassle, delay, costs, and many of the tariffs, that 1970s style exporting/importing entails.
Does seem to look that way, I have a sneaking feeling that the only people going to win are the distributors as all this grey importing we were all doing so easily as being in the EU made it a piece of piss for all sides is gone.
Back to the glory days of treasure island when you paid what you were told.
Rumblings of renegotiations already
One leading figure involved in the talks with Gove described the new rule book as a “complete shitshow”. Another said Gove seemed “very concerned” at hearing reports of problems, after a week in which Marks & Spencer was among leading companies to warn that more bureaucracy would increase costs. The source added: “He [Gove] seemed to realise the full gravity of the situation that is unfolding and about to get worse.
😂
That the government would indulge in environmental dumping such as reauthorising the bee killing pesticide was so predictable it was predicted four years ago:
How long before a complaint is made to the Brexit arbitration people with a a demand for sanctions/tarifs? At present tarifs would be a waste of time, most exporters seem to find the paperwork hurdle dissuasion enough.
Not much to renegotiate though. Out of the Single Market, out of the Customs Union, no freedom of movement. Also a government and opposition that are hell bent on pretending that Europe doesn't exist anymore. Oh and something something Blockchain.
Hope everyone likes sovereignty shit sandwiches.
And on the Bee thing. Here's some informed comment - it would appear France did the same earlier this year. Turns out there is provision under EU law for emergency use of restricted chemicals if the circumstances allow it. Quelle surprise.
https://twitter.com/Tom_Clarke/status/1337737078789038082
How long before a complaint is made to the Brexit arbitration people with a a demand for sanctions/tarifs?
Not very. I'm pretty certain the only way De Pfeffel won over the ERG loonies was by promising them he would start cocking around at the first opportunity. Having told the previous room full of people something totally different. Possibly even on the same day with just an hour's break for a lunchtime snifter.
As a nation, we will be hauled up in front of some kind of arbitration panel very soon, I think. And of course, 'our' government will act like a snot-nosed, spoiled, truculent little shit. And of course 'we' will get our botty spanked and be humiliated. And of course the Tory press will portray it as 'Europe' being 'beastly' to 'us'. And of course, the nobheads will lap it up. Again.
So France did it first?
Thanks for sharing torsoinalake. There's always more to consider than the obvious headline outrage stance.
From the Yorkshire Bylines
Johnson pleads with business leaders: give me a reason for Brexit
Is this not a question that should have been asked 4 years ago?
Not by Johnson… it was a political project to win and keep power… **** business.
Haunted Victorian Pencil shuts down scrutiny
Jacob Rees-Mogg has blocked an extension of a Commons committee tasked with scrutinising the Brexit process.
So many surprises, much like the sun rises.
Was reminded of this lecture by Ivan rogers
its quite impressive but he predicted pretty much every aspect of Johnson's 'quick & dirty' tariff & quota free deal- Canada --
That Christmas Future section should have been required reading before the last “get Brexit done” election.
Not playing out well for the Scottish fishing industry:
asbrooks
Full Member
Back at work this week and have been trying to work out what this deal means to the company I work for. Have said before that we supply components to the rail industry world wide and are big players in Europe.
Very similar fears to me (see my previous posts). Our company has various factories around the world but the main customer for the uk factory is Europe. We assemble products using parts mainly from the far east and India and net tariffs have increased significantly.
We are waiting to see how the company will react to this.
Just had a look at the Trek website and it appears that prices have jumped about 14%, from memory they have a central distribution hub in the Netherlands.
Scottish fishing industry wasn't ready. There's a lot of pedantic detail in the forms and they're not all geared up. Many relied on groupage, which requires all sellers on that lorry to get the paperwork right or the whole load gets rejected. So there's less groupage on offer. The logistics infrastructure is also trying to get to grips with workload and inconsistencies in the application of rules / guidance at various steps on the journey. Health Certs very time consuming, underresourced and eating into shelf life.
oldbloke - apparently it takes 5 hours to do a full inspection on a truck load of mixed fish. Everything has to be unloaded and checked, that time is unnaffordable when you are on a 24hr sea to market deadline.
this is for the shellfish from the west coast. A fair bit of the catch there is no market for it in the UK
when did you last eat a squat lobster of a velvet crab?
TJ, i work in aquaculture and the process of getting exports away is painfully familiar as so much of the process is the same as white / shellfish and the logistics chains are the same. I'm inside this nightmare as it develops by the hour and day.
I mentioned the EHC issue. Crude numbers - 10-15% inspection required. For us I think one artic can take up to 1000 boxes / 24 pallets which has to unload, break pallet wrap, 100-150 boxes to open, inspect, reseal, repack onto pallets, reload. Vet time is one thing, but then there's waiting in the queue for the vet. None of that had to be done before. And the worst thing is it is pointless. Can't check health properly as that would be better done at the processing site.
Just had a look at the Trek website and it appears that prices have jumped about 14%, from memory they have a central distribution hub in the Netherlands.
Up 14% from when? There was a big hike across the board from when I started looking at road bikes in say April to when I picked it up again in November, but I think this was the due to a big spike in demand and a big fall in output due to COVID.
Channel 4 news tonight are reporting that the reason that Kent isn’t a lorry park yet is because none of the loads have left the yards.
The bureaucracy and form filling for each load, pre-Brexit, would take 20 minutes. With all the new paperwork it is now 6-7 hours. That’s for each truck. Multiply that across a whole fleet of artics and you’ve warehouses upon warehouses full of stuff that’s going absolutely nowhere
The MD of a huge logistics firm was interviewed (stood in front of rows of parked up trucks) and saying how in the next few weeks big manufacturers will be shutting down production lines as they can no longer get parts in or out of the country
Hurray for sovrinty
https://twitter.com/mrdjones/status/1348735196691001349?s=21
Up 14% from when? There was a big hike across the board from when I started looking at road bikes in say April to when I picked it up again in November, but I think this was the due to a big spike in demand and a big fall in output due to COVID.
Within the last few days/weeks I think because I was looking at a Procaliber 9.7 which has gone up £280. Which is more like 11% but still annoying.
Up 14% from when? There was a big hike across the board from when I started looking at road bikes in say April to when I picked it up again in November, but I think this was the due to a big spike in demand and a big fall in output due to COVID.
As per the other thread, go onto the YT website, choose a bike for UK and checkout.
According to my pal his top-spec Capra from a couple of years ago had a £50 shipping charge - same high-end bike is now nearly £200 plus custom duty of nearly £600.
I think it is in the last few days, I was looking last week and I am sure they were lower. They are certainly higher as one bike I was looking at was under my cycle to work threshold and is now substantially above it.
Personal imports of meat and dairy products banned from EU since Brexit transition ended
So on your next trip abroad don't stock up with travel snacks until you're safely across the Channel!
Worst thing is on our next family holiday drive to France we can't take a packed lunch
It looks to me that Trek have just put their prices up 10% … if you look in the right places you can still see bikes at the pre-increase price in their site. Eg Slash 9.7 is £4000 in their tool that helps you find the right bike… and £4400 on the product page. On the French product page it is €4499 (~£4040).
Procalibre 9.7 has gone from 2550 to 2825
9.8 from 3100 to 3450
so about 11% or so.
Ah, it’s only some models. 🤷🏻♂️
Perhaps they’re updating them for models with no stock already the right side of the border.
So on your next trip abroad don’t stock up with travel snacks until you’re safely across the Channel!
It’s just a ploy to make you pay for the overpriced french motorway food 🙂
It’s funny what little things are coming out the woodwork.