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Does this news mean all those ‘idiots’ who voted leave in Sunderland actually called it right and have got exactly what they wanted?
No, clearly not from what you quoted without apparently reading/understanding it properly.
It means that they have a temporary reprieve, that might be extended if we concede some more in a couple of years time, if Nissan can be bothered to keep investing in such an uncertain future. Which seems a crazy way to run a business/economy.
But according to several of the most prolific doom-mongers on here UK car plants are already dead in the water with or without a deal? Does this news mean all those ‘idiots’ who voted leave in Sunderland actually called it right and have got exactly what they wanted?
Tariffs had to be avoided, JLR reckoned that they would add £1bn a year to the cost of manufacturing here
But they reckoned non tariff barriers would add £1.5bn, Rules of Origin- which is what this is, is a type of NTB, so a reduction on tariffs for EVs is welcome & should encourage UK manufacturers to switch to EV production - which was no doubt the EUs intention.
Tho as pointed out its not as much as we wanted and decreases over 6 years to 0
But the Quasqu is hybrid, rather than EV, is that covered?
And regardless the UKs new customs requires more red tape & paperwork
Brexit has made car production, especially for sale to the EU (where most of Nissans cars go) more expensive, that's a direct result of how leavers in Sunderland voted
But it means that the car manufacturers will be demanding government subsidies to stay here, hence why there was so much fuss over state aid & level playing field
From the guardian:
Professional qualifications
There will be no more automatic recognition for doctors, nurses, architects, dentists, pharmacists, vets, engineers. They will now have to seek recognition in the member state they wish to practise in.
That doesn't appear to be correct, paras 50, 51 & 52 of the precis linked to earlier in the thread suggest that recognition of professional qualifications continues. But no details obviously, that would be too easy.
I have a major project starting at the end of January in an EU country. It's taken just over a year to land this project and a significant investment in time and therefore money to do so. I still don't know if they'll recognise me (professionally).
Leavers don’t like intellect.
I think to be honest that quote is a little unfair.
It was experts, and presumably therefore expertise, that they don’t like. And I suppose there is a good deal of evidence that the better educated you were the more likely you were to vote remain, particularly if you corrected for affluence (eg rich uneducated was very much more likely to be Brexy than poor well educated). Now age would be a factor too (old folk are generally better off than young folk) but I think that correction had little effect.
This is all from memory of course and my memory sometimes puts a spin on things.
So no leavers don’t necessarily dislike intellect, but are probably less educated than average for their affluence and dislike expertise - which isn’t a million miles away.
Moving on, there’s something strangely dystopian and “Sovereign Individual” about this deal when read in context of immigration policies that prevent social mobility and allow big business to buy in the high skill people they need preventing the common man from getting the best price for their talents and hard work, but still allows business to sell wherever to get the best price relative to cost for their goods.
Can’t quite put my finger on it, but it feels like you couldn’t design a better outcome than free trade but no free movement of labour if you were pro-elite (cash elite, not intellectual elite).
I’m sure it gives you great comfort to think of yourself as intellectually superior to how you picture the typical leave voter.
By a man's actions....
Anyway, now shit got real there won't be any need for long snarky posts. Just a link to the relevant news story of yet another Brexit-driven fail with the words 'told you so'.
But I doubt it will get very far down that road. Your man Johnson will break the agreement in spirit at least - the first time he is remotely pushed on it by one of the ERG nutjobs.
I'll bet Johnson's minders are currently being tasked with making sure that under no circumstances does De Pfeffel find himself in the same room as a ERG nutjob.
An honest man doesn't have to remember anything. Alexander Boris De Pfeffel Johnson (man of the people) has a lot to remember.
To paraphrase one of Johnson's heroes:
Never has so much been given up by so many for so little.
Leavers don’t like intellect.
In my experience it isn't so much this but that they give equal or greater weight to opinion as they do to knowledge. As others have said, and is well documented now, the average leave voter has or had less formal education so their access to knowledge is reduced, the learned ability to interpret and differentiate facts from fiction is lower and resulting willingness to change their mind based on external evidence vanishes. Hence people presenting facts can be dismissed if they don't agree with what you think, and people peddling lies that are pallatable gain traction.
The entirety of the leave vote follows from recognising and capitalising on this. Gove's comment on experts is explicit recognition of this. There is a reason why the Conservatives aren't traditionally in favour of high levels of universal education.
The entirety of the leave vote follows from recognising and capitalising on this. Gove’s comment on experts is explicit recognition of this. There is a reason why the Conservatives aren’t traditionally in favour of high levels of universal education.
Add into the mix the ability to use social media to tell different lies to different groups through targeted messaging and you have a particularly toxic mix.
A dumbed down population plus cynical use of social media is a gift to populist crooks.
I’m sure it gives you great comfort to think of yourself as intellectually superior to how you picture the typical leave voter.
It's not that. I WISH there was a good specific argument in favour of Brexit. I'd love to be able to believe in my government and what my country does, like I used to, even a bit.
But almost all the Brexit arguments are emotional and sentimental, which is frankly bollocks; and those that aren't (e.g. the coming socialist utopia which I'd heartily welcome) are wildly unrealistic.
Convince me, please. Beyond empty assertions that 'it'll be okay' or 'we'll be able to trade more' because this educated middle class person needs more meat on that bone.
Convince me, please. Beyond empty assertions that ‘it’ll be okay’ or ‘we’ll be able to trade more’ because this educated middle class person needs more meat on that bone.
And there's the rub. Looked at objectively, it is impossible to explain Brexit without using words that are synonyms for or slightly dumbed down versions of 'stupid'. Charitable attempts would include 'naive', 'easily persuaded' or 'gullible' - but they are all said with a knowing look in the eye.
How on earth else can you encapsulate millions of people being duped into voting against their own interests?
In any case, Brexies supposedly love straight-speaking, so why it should have to be dressed up in 'nicer' words is beyond me.
e.g. the coming socialist utopia which I’d heartily welcome)
We’re currently in the middle of a socialist utopia. It’s shit. The aftermath is going to be brutal.
Convince me, please. Beyond empty assertions that ‘it’ll be okay’ or ‘we’ll be able to trade more’ because this educated middle class person needs more meat on that bone.
I doubt anything will convince you short term. Give it a few years.
Protectionist eu tariffs are gone, unless I’ve missed something, the plan is to drop virtually all tariffs to zero. So cheaper food, cheaper bikes, cheaper everything from around the world. I’m looking forward to that.
Medium term, free movement between Australia, New Zealand and Canada is a distinct possibility. There are not many people that wouldn’t prefer that over free movement with Europe.
Oh blimey, bozzer's gone done a mega deal💩
Fingers crossed for a vimto, somebody save us...
We’re currently in the middle of a socialist utopia. It’s shit
Errrmmm - where do you live? the nearest thing to a "socialist utopia" is probably the Netherlands.
cheaper stuff made with lower regs means no selling to the EU
Medium term, free movement between Australia, New Zealand and Canada is a distinct possibility. There are not many people that wouldn’t prefer that over free movement with Europe.
You're joking, right? 🙂
Medium term, free movement between Australia, New Zealand and Canada is a distinct possibility. There are not many people that wouldn’t prefer that over free movement with Europe.
????? You could until just now freely live and work in and between 27 other countries. Many of which are very cyclist-friendly and 5 of them are among the top 7 countries currently ranked by the World ‘happiness index’. A wide topography spanning from the wild of the Arctic Circle to warm seas, deserts beaches and islands of Southern Europe. The almost countless old and new cities and towns of Europe offer an embarrassment of riches if we are talking about history, architecture, centres of learning, science, culture, arts, emergent sustainable tech and planning.
You could also (until just now) freely live there and still easily visit family in the UK by catching a train, ferry or short flight. Guaranteed. Trade that with a ‘possibility’ of ‘free movement’ to just three countries on the other side of the world? No thanks.
Medium term, free movement between Australia, New Zealand and Canada is a distinct possibility. There are not many people that wouldn’t prefer that over free movement with Europe.
Hmm doubt the fares are as cheap as a Dover Calais foot passenger thou.
Might like NZ or Canada maybe - but Canada would have me anyway (I checked)
Australia? No chance. I know a few Aussies and you should hear them on why they left. Wouldn’t suit me.
Medium term, free movement between Australia, New Zealand and Canada is a distinct possibility. There are not many people that wouldn’t prefer that over free movement with Europe.
Despite having visited Canada a number of times over the last few years there’s no way I’d regard the possibility of free move to Canada, Australia and New Zealand as better than free movement around Europe. Oh yes let’s do a weekend city break to Auckland.
Please feel free to show your working out for “There are not many people”.
The UK scores very well in that 2020 world happiness report, not quite the picture painted on these threads.
As you were👍
Medium term, free movement between Australia, New Zealand and Canada is a distinct possibility. There are not many people that wouldn’t prefer that over free movement with Europe.
I suspect all the keenness will be on the UK side.
Mods, will there be a new thread if the deal gets the double thumbs up👍👍
exsee
Free Member
Oh blimey, bozzer’s gone done a mega deal💩
Fingers crossed for a vimto, somebody save us…
Remember kids. Just say 'no' to drugs.
Protectionist eu tariffs are gone, unless I’ve missed something, the plan is to drop virtually all tariffs to zero. So cheaper food, cheaper bikes, cheaper everything from around the world. I’m looking forward to that.
That is all good and fine if it happens however the bigger worry from me is what will the employment situation be in the UK in 5 years, I mean the tories haven't exactly held the workers rights dear to their hearts ( I do believe there will be jobs but I honestly think the bottom 90% or thereabouts will be worse off)
I've avoided this thread for my own well being.
To get my head around this shit I've come up with the fact that WE DON'T DESERVE TO BE IN THE EU.
For decades the mainlanders have been working together to stop war and generally make life better for everyone. Then there's us, sniping from the sides trying to **** it up at every turn.Like a grumpy sod at a party trying to bring every one down.
Let them prosper and maybe we will get some crumbs.
Then I want my gammon in-laws not to be able to go to spain in their caravan for the winter. Then I want them to moan about it , then I will let rip with 4 years of anger.
I want them right royally ****ed over. ****s.
Anyway , do the gammons like this deal ,or have they been "sold out by traitors"?
Oh yes let’s do a weekend city break to Auckland.
Kilo, not a great example as that's not the trade off, living and working in the EU is the issue, travelling short term is still fine.
Danny, how's the break from your addiction going? How far into the 6 days did you get😱 must post, must post, must post🦃
I’d love to be able to believe in my government and what my country does, like I used to, even a bit.
This is an odd comment. I can't really think of anything this country or its government has done in decades which personally gives me a sense of pride or satisfaction. The institutions of state and the government which oversees them are in their present form constructed primarily to enshrine the power and wealth of those at the very top. Normal working people are only really considered at the level of keeping them dosile so they don't rise up and overthrow the existing establishment.
There really is a lot of rose-tinted nonsense about the pre-brexit UK/EU. The only thing we've achieved of note is finding a way to not kill each other on a regular basis, and that's mostly because we were focused on how to kill a larger, even more threatening group of people. I'll start supporting governments when they take seriously things like climate change, poverty, equality, and provide real fairness and justice for those at the bottom. Until then I'll carry on regarding all of them as the corrupt and self-serving entities that they are.
Medium term, free movement between Australia, New Zealand and Canada is a distinct possibility. There are not many people that wouldn’t prefer that over free movement with Europe.
Oh **** off. What's stupid thing to say. Typical Anglophone parochial narrow minded shite.
Does anyone know where we are with this deal on temporary exports to the EU in regards to ATA carnets from the 1st. So far the .gov website doesn't seem to have a definitive answer.
It could be the difference between us surviving as we are or changing to a different model where the vast majority of money ends up being spent with local suppliers.
We’re currently in the middle of a socialist utopia.
You what? We are a very long way from that. Perhaps that's why right wingers hate democratic socialism - they don't actually know what it is.
Medium term, free movement between Australia, New Zealand and Canada is a distinct possibility. There are not many people that wouldn’t prefer that over free movement with Europe.
I would. You just listed three Anglophone ex-British colonies. They're great if you all you want in life is a big house and a big car. But not great for actually experiencing other cultures and enriching your life. Also, they are all prohibitively far away. Too far for me to go from my family. And even then, trading FoM in 27 countries for three (IF it happens) is a shit deal.
Protectionist eu tariffs are gone, unless I’ve missed something, the plan is to drop virtually all tariffs to zero. So cheaper food, cheaper bikes, cheaper everything from around the world. I’m looking forward to that.
What do you think trade tariffs are for? If we slash all our tariffs to zero from poor countries then that means British businesses will struggle to compete and could be threatened. That's why import tariffs exist. Export tariffs on the other hand are there to prevent all our stuff from being flogged somewhere else thereby upsetting the trade balance in a negative way. If you commit to these things just to get cheap consumer goods you're opening a huge can of worms. I'm not an economist but I do try to pay attention to how things work. Your position strikes me as rather naive.
For decades the mainlanders have been working together to stop war and generally make life better for everyone. Then there’s us, sniping from the sides trying to **** it up at every <span class="skimlinks-unlinked">turn.</span>
Oh give over. It's true that here in the UK we have a uniquely craven and venal elite ruling over us, possibly the standout in the western world for naked corruption and self-interest, but please don't fool yourself that The EU or European governments are much different. All these governments have the same problems. The french are as stratified as we are and have a class system which is every bit, if not more enshrined as ours, with all the corruption that entails. The germans are held back by a government interested only in holding down wages so they can sell stuff to others as cheap as possible to keep the industrial magnates in their exalted positions. Spain is still suffering from the shadow of fascism and has huge internal schisms, and where to start with Italy? A country still infected with all the corruption and violence of one ruled by gangsters. It wasn't long ago that their PM was going to bunga-bunga parties and embezzling millions from the public purse. And then there's the EU itself, which recently chose to impoverish an entire nation at the altar of free market neo-liberalism for no other reason than to prevent German banks from losing billions of ill-considered loans which never should have been lent to those who were never going to be able to repay them. Need I go on?
Medium term, free movement between Australia, New Zealand and Canada is a distinct possibility. There are not many people that wouldn’t prefer that over free movement with Europe.
That is one of the stupidest things I've seen written in a long time.
Good illustration of why the remainers are despairing however.. Basically you are asked to cite benefits of brexit, and one of only 2 examples you can come up with is clearly total and utter bullshit..
The germans are held back by a government interested only in holding down wages so they can sell stuff to others as cheap as possible to keep the industrial magnates in their exalted positions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_wage
The germans are held back by a government interested only in holding down wages so they can sell stuff to others as cheap as possible
Eh?
After the nordics, by all measures Germany has the best wages in the EU, certainly better than UK & have much stronger union & industry relationship than most others too
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage
exsee
Free Member
Mods, will there be a new thread if the deal gets the double thumbs up👍👍
Theres no doubt that itll get through EP, after all EU just secured a deal that continues tarifs free trade in goods where they have a £90bn surplus, but not for services where we have a £23bn surplus
I'm not sure that the brexiteers MPs are smart enough to realise this yet, so they'll vote it thru anyway
And all macron had to do was shut the ports for 2 days to get Johnson to fold!
Medium term, free movement between Australia, New Zealand and Canada is a distinct possibility. There are not many people that wouldn’t prefer that over free movement with Europe.
A) a possibility
B) have you a citation for how many prefer three very distant countries that are a flight away for travel and work, over 27 countries on our doorstep and a train, bus, drive, cycle, ferry or flight away?
After the nordics, by all measures Germany has the best wages in the EU
It's all relative. Germany is a better place to be a worker than the UK no doubt (where isn't?), but the german government have followed an unnecessarily prudent fiscal policy for decades which effectively held down wages. If I was a german worker instead of celebrating being a bit richer than my UK counterparts, I might be asking why given the huge economic output I wasn't a lot more better off. Just like here in the UK, those who benefited most from economic growth were not the people at large.
EDIT : not getting dragged into a debate about Germany… by any economic or social measure… if you’re not in the top 10%, you are much better off being in post Brexit Germany than post Brexit Britain. Keep throwing the Lexit stones if you want… we all know who’s windows are more likely to end up smashed over the coming years. I’ll leave you to it Dazh.
Wasn't there someone on here who emigrated to Canada (or planned to)? From memory they were in a favoured profession that the Canadians had a shortage of.
As with our wonderful* points system, pretty well all countries have some sort of requirements for residential and citizen status. You can't just turn up. If you are well educated and in a profession that's in demand then there's not going to be much problem. For your average brickie, council worker, supermarket shelf stacker, etc. then it's unlikely. That fact is unlikely to change post Brexit - Canada and Australia both have higher unemployment rates than the UK, NZ,s is slightly lower, why would they let in more unqualified workers?
*Other sarcastic adjectives are available.
And, of course, we could have signed an agreement with any/all of those countries to have a reciprocal opening up of migration opportunities… while members of the EU. If we and they had wanted that.
Germany is a better place to be a worker than the UK no doubt (where isn’t?),
You should get out of the UK a bit more just to realise how good you have it here.
Medium term, free movement between Australia, New Zealand and Canada is a distinct possibility. There are not many people that wouldn’t prefer that over free movement with Europe.
FFS what is with the CANZAK fantasies.
You should get out of the UK a bit more just to realise how good you have it here.
This is very true. And a reminder that "wages" are not the only measure of how well workers are treated... you'd have to pay me A LOT more to opt into USA type employer/employee/state style arrangements. That goes for most other countries in the world as it happens. Not Germany though.
FFS what is with the CANZAK fantasies.
Commonwealth/Empire, but just the majority white countries.
But they key thing is, the barriers that both they and we put up for our workers (and, knowing people who have both failed and succeeded to have moved to/from all those countries, I've seen just how substantial those barriers are), as regards moving between countries, are the choices of our governments, not the governments of any of the other European countries.
Aside from figuring out how not to kill each the major visible and tangible achievement of European countries is a functioning and affordable public transport system. Which counter-intuitively helps the brexit argument as people here wonder why we don’t have that too, and then conclude that European nations must be unfairly benefitting from EU membership.
Keep throwing the Lexit stones
So suggesting that the EU has the same problems we do makes me a lexiteer? This is how ridiculous this whole debate has become.
No… this does…
an unnecessarily prudent fiscal policy for decades which effectively held down wages
Where is your evidence that wages have been “held down” by (successive) German governments? Or that their fiscal policies have created this situation? Just Lexitier English pub bore talk. Still, come the ever approaching English revolution, we’ll show them Germans how it’s done.
Kelvin do a google search for Germany and Austerity. Germany is not the social democratic utopia that many pretend it is. As an example..
This increased competitiveness lies partly in structural competitive advantages such as a large share of manufacturing, advanced technologies, and a skilled labour force. But it also has its roots in a set of neo-liberal reforms undertaken since 2002, the so-called Agenda 2010. This was a neo-liberal reaction to the poor performance of the German economy after re-unification. At its core were labour reforms (‘Hartz IV laws’) introduced by the coalition government of the Social Democrats and the Green Party under Chancellor Gerhard Schröder.
These reforms consisted of sharp cuts in unemployment benefits, making labour more flexible by weakening the trade unions, applying heavy bureaucratic pressure on the jobless, reducing social security, such as pensions, and raising the age of retirement from 65 to 67. Real wages fell on average by 1.6 per cent a year from 2002 to 2012, falling fastest once the reforms were introduced, with the years between 2002 and 2007 seeing a drop of 3.9 per cent.8 Only since 2010 has there been an increase in real wages of 2.85 per cent which continued until 2012. The gender gap in wages remained more or less the same throughout the decade at 19.4 per cent in 2010.
Stop providing facts - they make Brexiteers deaf.
Those reforms still leave Germany with much better worker protections and much higher benefits than we have
Those reforms still leave Germany with much better worker protections and much higher benefits than we have
True, but my general point was that European countries are affected to a greater or lesser extent by the same issues we have here, and this fawning view of the EU as some perfect utopia is a bit silly as it's not much different to what we have (public transport aside). It's neither a pro or anti-EU argument I'm making, but an appeal for less hysteria of the likes we saw earlier which claim EU goverments are wonderfully charitable, benevolent institutions trying to make life better for everyone. We are not the only country with a shit government, self-interested politicians and corrupt civil servants.
Just seen this on the Washington Post
Opinion by Dominic Raab
Dec. 26, 2020 at 11:00 a.m. GMTDominic Raab is Britain’s foreign secretary.
The United Kingdom and the European Union have reached a historic new deal, establishing a relationship based on free trade and friendly cooperation between sovereign equals. This is good news for Britain, our E.U. partners and the United States, including for U.S. businesses in the U.K. such as 3M, GE and Hewlett-Packard. The deal provides stability and continuity, and it reaffirms that the U.K. is one of the best places in the world to do business.
This zero-tariff, zero-quota deal is not just good for international business. Above all, it respects the democratic mandate from the 2016 referendum by ensuring the U.K. takes back control of our laws, money, immigration policy, fisheries and right to forge trade deals around the world, as any independent, self-respecting democracy would expect to.
It is good for the whole United Kingdom too. With the E.U.-U.K. Joint Committee agreement reached this month, the deal makes sure that Northern Ireland’s place within the E.U. and its economic future are protected in accordance with the Good Friday Agreement. We have been clear from Day 1 that there would be no hard border in any circumstances, and the deal we have negotiated gives the people of Northern Ireland a greater say. We know how important that is to our U.S. friends.
Beyond the small print of the negotiated text, the deal heralds a new era for a reinvigorated Global Britain as a confident, independent nation and an energetic force for good in the world. We will champion free and fair trade by striking bilateral deals, developing our regional ties (especially among the growth markets of the future in the Indo-Pacific region, with the Trans-Pacific Partnership) and at the global level by pursuing meaningful reform in the World Trade Organization.
We also believe this truly Global Britain will play an even stronger force in tackling crises like covid-19, helping the international economic recovery stemming from the pandemic, stopping catastrophic climate change, addressing emerging security threats, standing up for our values, and holding China to its international commitments and promises. As for the United States, you will find us an even more dependable ally and friend in these joint endeavors.
Our energized ambition will be on display as we assume the presidency of the Group of Seven in 2021. But we have already started offering global solutions to a global pandemic. We are already administering the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine, and the Oxford University/AstraZeneca vaccine is progressing well. We have committed over £500 million (about $668 million) to rolling out vaccines across the poorest countries in the world, and we were proud to host the Global Vaccine Summit in June, raising $8.8 billion to support the routine vaccination of hundreds of millions of children in lower-income countries.
Next we will host the U.N. global climate change conference in November 2021. The U.K. was the first major economy to introduce legislation to bring all greenhouse gas emissions to net zero by 2050. Now we are pressing governments around the world to match that level of ambition. We hugely welcome President-elect Joe Biden’s pledge to recommit to the Paris Agreement and achieve a “carbon pollution-free power sector by 2035.” This is a game changer, and we are thoroughly looking forward to working with the United States to build momentum in the months ahead.
On security, Prime Minister Boris Johnson has announced the biggest program of investment in British defense since the end of the Cold War — an increase of more than £24 billion (approximately $32 billion) over the next four years, exceeding our NATO pledge, investing to restore Britain’s position as the foremost naval power in Europe and creating new capabilities, including a center dedicated to artificial intelligence. The threats from our adversaries are evolving. We have to be fully equipped, alongside our NATO allies, with the cutting-edge tools to respond.On human rights, we have already followed U.S. legislation by enacting Magnitsky-style sanctions — the bipartisan brainchild of Sens. John McCain (R-Ariz.) and Benjamin L. Cardin (D-Md.) — that allow us to sanction the perpetrators of the worst human rights abuses around the world. This month, we announced a new round of targeted asset freezes and visa bans on political leaders and special forces in Russia, and on military and police commanders in Venezuela. We will always look to coordinate our approach with like-minded allies to maximize our impact.
These are the values and interests that underpin Global Britain as we look forward to the next chapter in our history. We will be resolute in defending open societies, promoting global trade and standing up for those values we have always championed side-by-side with our friends in the United States.
The £24Bn increase in defence spending will barely cover the over-spend on existing commitments, never mind the promises of new kit and capabilities. The Army are struggling to recruit and in other branches they've stopped some training - there will need to be cuts. Hardly signs of getting ready for our brave, new post-Brexit world. Never mind the handful of gunboats we have to defend our territorial waters just about sums up the UK's new place in the world-order - champions of tinpot gunboat diplomacy.
So cheaper food, cheaper bikes, cheaper everything from around the world. I’m looking forward to that
I'm sure. I suppose if you overlook the additional costs of customs clearance and the 20% hit the currency has taken after we took off after this fool's errand you can make those sums add up. Throw in some antibiotic laden foodstuffs and even more cheap shit from China and you may have just saved enough money to pay for your health insurance. F me you couldn't make this up.
As for the Germans, well, I guess if you ignore the higher pay, the effective health system, the protected workers rights, the de-centralised wealth, healthy economy, the brilliant public transport, fantastic beer, and the generally law abiding citizens, you'd be right again daz - shitter of a place.
Merry Xmas everyone.
Merry Xmas everyone.
C'mon fella, at least wrap it and stick a bow on it. Happiest time of the year remember?
Protectionist eu tariffs are gone, unless I’ve missed something, the plan is to drop virtually all tariffs to zero. So cheaper food, cheaper bikes, cheaper everything from around the world. I’m looking forward to that.
I'm pretty sure that plan has been dropped as it was an unworkable idea. If you check the post Jan 1 tariffs they pretty much mirror the current as far as i have seen. They'll need to carry that on for many years in order to provide market stability. Consumer goods might even see a rise in order to plug some gaping holes in the finances.
this fawning view of the EU as some perfect utopia
A strawman, from Dazh… I’m so shocked!
a large share of manufacturing, advanced technologies, and a skilled labour force
The horror!
As a left winger, I’ve heard far too many people I politically agree with be disparaging of Germany. For some it is because they want to keep the “all capitalism is wrong” pretence up, and so can’t accept that German do socially responsible capitalism better than us, in no small part because their trade unions work long term with industry. For others, the Lexiters especially, it’s just the same English>German xenophobia they share with their right wing anti-European friends.
Just seen this on the Washington Post
Opinion by Dominic Raab
Dec. 26, 2020 at 11:00 a.m. GMTDominic Raab is Britain’s foreign secretary.
The United Kingdom and the European Union have reached a historic new deal.... blah blah blah....
a beautifuly written pile of horseshit.
the actions of the goverment are what speak, not words.
I have complete faith that they will continue true to past form, probably even more so.
Looks like this PoS agreement will be the final push I need to get round to sorting out Spanish citizenship. I'd have done it before, but the paperwork is an (expensive) PITA. But thanks to Brexit I could be unemployed, and all just so some ****s get to rub one out thinking about the White Cliffs and "Great" Britain.
So yeah, happy xmas to our Brexit voting friends, you ****s.
Dazh you're talking utter pish. We've recently been "consulted" by the company with regards them ending their existing underwritten direct benefit and direct contribution schemes. The reason they need to do this is because the bigger group is in a massive financial black hole and our part isn't much better off. Someone asked whether this policy would be the same across the wider group and the answer was basically that other countries have protections against that sort of thing. **** knows what the unions are thinking because they've communicated precisely nothing in the last few months. This race to the bottom has been going on for years but don't try to tell us that other countries aren't better off.
As for the Germans, well, I guess if you ignore the higher pay, the effective health system, the protected workers rights, the de-centralised wealth, healthy economy, the brilliant public transport, fantastic beer, and the generally law abiding citizens, you’d be right again daz – shitter of a place.
Very much this.
mogrim
Full MemberLooks like this PoS agreement will be the final push I need to get round to sorting out Spanish citizenship
Won't you have to renounce Citizenship and then apply for settled status though?
As a left winger, I’ve heard far too many people I politically agree with be disparaging of Germany.
Jeez, I dare to question the german government's policy of austerity and fiscal prudence and suddenly I'm anti-germany! This is exactly what I'm talking about. I'm actually a fairly classical lefty internationalist. The workers of the UK have far more in common with the workers of Germany and other EU countries than they do their own governments.
so can’t accept that German do socially responsible capitalism better than us
I think the greek might disagree with the concept of socially responsible German capitalism.
Won’t you have to renounce Citizenship and then apply for settled status though?
Currently would have to renounce my British citizenship, but TBH that's not exactly a huge loss. I've been a resident for over 10 years (not to mention I have a Spanish wife) so there's no problem regarding eligibility.
I have a major project starting at the end of January in an EU country. It’s taken just over a year to land this project and a significant investment in time and therefore money to do so. I still don’t know if they’ll recognise me (professionally).
Got your Schengen Visa ordered?
I think the greek…
Is this lexiter Bingo? Big bad capitalist Germany using the EU to impoverish other European countries. Especially Greece. God I’m bored with the English blaming Germans and the EU for the problems of Greece.
the English blaming Germans and the EU for the problems of Greece.
It does play to the Brexit audience, sadly, because it's a simple message, but it's way more complicated than that.
Gordon Brown's master stroke, keeping us out the Euro.
Last decent PM we had was Gordon Brown.
I think the greek might disagree with the concept of socially responsible German capitalism.
Well, quite. It's pretty clear from this thread that many remainers are just as fundamentalist as brexiters. Any criticism of the EU is tantamount to treason.
Any criticism of the EU is tantamount to treason.
Far from it. Lazy cliched blaming of modern Germany can be challenged though. The Right don’t have a monopoly of anti-german sentiment, I hear it just as often from the Left, sadly. A very English problem.
Last decent PM we had was Gordon Brown.
He arguably got us to where we are now though, by becoming PM. He was pretty much the opposite of Johnson… very capable in the post, but without the charm needed to win an election.
Waking up to all this now - wow can't believe we've had such an abundance of rights ripped from us. Feeling extremely bitter.
Mogrim - does Spanish residency allow freedom of movement across the EU or do you need citizenship for that?
I think I've managed to bag Spanish residency but writing this from Italy where a lot of my friends live, now think I chose the wrong country.
The loss of freedom for zero gain is unacceptable. Where do we go from here?
Where do we go from here?
Get rich quick. Your worries won’t be shared by the very well off. The loss of rights only reduced the life opportunities of “us” not “them”.
I think I’ve managed to bag Spanish residency but writing this from Italy where a lot of my friends live, now think I chose the wrong country.
Did you hedge your bets and get the driving licence swap process started !!
A very English problem
Doubtful.
The Right don’t have a monopoly of anti-german sentiment
FFS it’s not anti-German to point out the fact that the German govt is just as much a fan of destructive neo-liberal capitalism as ours is. It’s illustrative though that you get so offended by the suggestion.
it’s not anti-German to point out the fact that the German govt is just as much a fan of destructive neo-liberal capitalism as ours is.
Probably not. But I still think you are wrong in that assertion. I can't see any evidence that they are as big a fans of the destructive part as we are. They had to make tough economic choices after reunification, but I can't see it was driven by ideology.
quite. i'm not sure where the 'destructive' bit comes in. capitalism has many problems but it's lifted many people out of poverty around the world. i'm not in favour of unchecked capitalism BTW.
i think you'll also find very little support for the idea that greece's issues have been handled well from anyone posting here. greece, and to a marginally lesser extent italy, portugal, and spain all need to get their economies straight. nor for that matter will you find any support for the idea the EU is in some way perfect. there's plenty to criticise about both the EU and the Euro but the pursuit of purity will get you nowhere. perfect is the enemy of good. ask labour.
nor for that matter will you find any support for the idea the EU is in some way perfect.
I don't think I've seen much at all on the subject.
capitalism has many problems but it’s lifted many people out of poverty around the world
Absolutely, but three fundamental and massive thing are going to mean that the 'model' has to evolve....
In order of ascending importance (at least from an economic point of view....
1. Climate change.
2. Reliance on finite sources of energy.
But the one that will 'get us' way before the others - and the most simple...
3. Population growth.
The other two pale in significance.
When I was born (a mere 43 years ago) the world population was 4.2 billion. Nowadays = 7.8 billion. We are following pretty much the same curve as E.Coli in a petri dish. With pretty much the same high-level issues to contend with.
Listen to Hans.
He (Gordon Brown) arguably got us to where we are now though, by becoming PM. He was pretty much the opposite of Johnson… very capable in the post, but without the charm needed to win an election.
I have sympathy with that view.
I was thinking he’d have been far better, domestically and internationally, with the C-19 problems than the present second-raters
I was thinking he’d have been far better, domestically and internationally, with the C-19 problems than the present second-raters
I agree.
The evidence of how he acted in 2008 supports that view, I feel.
But, more on topic, his attempts to appeal to a “Britains First” sentiment at the subsequent election fed the idea that immigrants are a problem… which is how we got here. Brown, Cameron, Miliband, May… they may have all later campaigned to stay in the EU, but they all fed the idea that there were no “Controls on immigration”, and that workers born elsewhere were in some way lowering the life chances of those born here… and made the case for Leave for them. But it isn’t over. Having left the EU, the chance to make political gains off the back of blaming immigrants will return again, when the next election is closer. Don’t assume this is just a Conservative or Leave tendency.
Mogrim – does Spanish residency allow freedom of movement across the EU or do you need citizenship for that?
Pretty sure you need citizenship - residency apparently allows me to work here (as I was already working and legally resident) but long-term I'm not planning on risking it. It doesn't take much to imagine the current shower deciding to ban EU workers for whatever reason, and then Spain and the rest taking tit for tat measures.