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I'm just waiting for the Star Chambers opinion on it
https://twitter.com/DavidJonesMP/status/1341830397479546881?s=20
Well according to Europe 1 after some last minute calls from European leaders in the evening Boris caved on fishing and some level playing field guarantees which will both be lasting. There was a happy fishing representative being interviewed.
Now we have to see what the respective parliaments think.
it’s the only trade deal in history where after the deal we have more barriers to trade than before the deal
we've exchanged wealth for sovereignty....How much that's worth remains to be seen.
Madame has been listening to some of the conditions and at one point uttered "chapeau, Michel Barnier"
I'm intrigued to see how this will be presented by the UK media. Of all I've heard so far this side of the channel I've yet to hear something that's changed that is a resounding plus for the UK. It's presented as a victory for common sense, and European business (I include British-European business in that) and fishing after months of British provocation. If you find something in which the UK benefits more than Europe I'm all ears.
Edit: and season's greetings to all, time to abandon the computer screen for Christmas.
I’m intrigued to see how this will be presented by the UK media.
personally I couldn't care less anymore. Let the Brexiteers have their moment in the sun, I'd imagine they're in the same place now that they were four and half years ago, i.e totally ignorant of the rules and agreements actually in place. I'd doubt most of them won't even be bothered to try to find out. They'll read the headlines in the Sun and Mail, and they'll be content...Blue passports, Johnny foreigner, rule Britannia whatever....idiots.
time to abandon the computer screen for Christmas
Look after yourself Ed, hope you and the fam. have a happy and peaceful Xmas and New year
I’m intrigued to see how this will be presented by the UK media.
Sunlit uplands, snatched from the hands of Johnny foreigner by our glorious leaders, wrapped in a union jack with Jerusalem playing in the background.
The issue being that a deal is done - we're out of time on any changes, so it's an irrelevance as to how press or public see it at this point.
I'm genuinely pleased that we have a deal. In genuinely intrigued to see what the detail is.
I'm suspicious of the detail however.
If you find something in which the UK benefits more than Europe I’m all ears.
Avoiding No Deal benefits the UK more than Europe... if you want to look at it in zero sum terms... it all sounds positive to me... fingers crossed. Economically, "we" must get a deal. Politically, I have no idea what happens next though... do others on the Right in the UK use a "capitulation" to make things difficult for Johnson, for their own political ends, and shift power towards themselves...? Just as he cynically used that idea to become PM himself?
It feels like the giant Brexshit sandwich has been coated in sugar for Xmas.
Those 5000 parked trucks were the final vision of what a no deal in 2021 would have looked like,so yeah,let's all celebrate. 🙁
Just checked the Spanish main news outlets, the deal (or any news about it) is barely even covered. Shows how much this has been a France and Germany issue, rather than an EU issue.
It feels like the giant Brexshit sandwich has been coated in sugar for Xmas.
Just think of it as only having to eat half of the sandwich... being glad you don't have to eat the other half is cause for relief (celebrations if you want)... assuming it can be avoided... but it's still sitting there on a plate waiting for agreement all around... fingers crossed...
Is it me, or have BloJo and gang waited longer than they could have to publish all this? Are they punting into Christmas properly in a hope that everyone is distracted, papers won't report in as much detail etc...?
Of course they are Matt.:-(
Anyone with a molecule of imagination can see the hardship coming to millions in the UK for 2021,it's absolutely heartbreaking.
Oh look, a deal, who'd have thought? There'll be a few disappointed people on here today.
Everything that annoys me about Brexit is summed up by the sheer, breathtaking arrogance of this Tweet. Nearly 5 years ago events led to this bunch of backward-gazing, xenophobic idiots being handed a vastly disproportionate level of power and influence. I can’t think of a group of people less deserving or trustworthy to hand that too, and just look at the damage they’ve done. And they’re not finished yet
https://twitter.com/critic_gstewart/status/1341835658738987015?s=21
It’s going to be interesting to see the detail of any deal. And the ERG’s verdict from their lofty perch.
Anything is massively preferable to no deal, but any deal will still leave us in an infinitely worse place than if we’d have remained, and we’ve completely wasted four and a half years and tens, maybe hundreds of billions of pounds to get here
It’s been total foot-shooting insanity from day one
Anyway: we’re not there yet. They’re still arguing about fish 🙄
A deal can be built on in future... a No Deal outcome would have broken UK:EU relationships for a generation. I for one won't be "disappointed" if we can get, and honour, a deal. We need one.
I wonder how much Macron flexing his muscles at the border helped nudge Johnson along.
He was always going to go for a deal, (his No Deal posturing was always just that, tho IMB was a ****ish miscalculation)
but his announcement about the super mutant ninja virus- to justify canceling his daft Xmas plans, gave Macron the perfect excuse!
The headbangers in the ERG will OK it just so they can get back to their country pikes b4 xmas.
It'll be a while before it dawns on them that they won nothing...
A deal can be built on in future… a No Deal outcome would have broken UK:EU relationships for a generation. I for one won’t be “disappointed” if we can get, and honour, a deal. We need one.
That's the best option right now, something we can use as a building block to forge a new relationship with everyone. Sadly I still have a nasty feeling that either one of the EU countries will veto whatever deal they've come up with (likely) or the ERG nutters will torpedo it in the Commons as they seem hell-bent on getting a No Deal scenario so that they can feather their own nests. I can only hope that the current issue with transport across the Channel has opened everyone's eyes to what could happen in the event of a No Deal scenario and that compromise is found to secure at minimum a working relationship that can be used as a foundation for the future.
Despite what Brexiters may think this is only the very beginning of a very long road to wherever we're going to end up. It will certainly be nothing like they thought they voted for but it's too late now to argue about that, we desperately need to get the future at the forefront of everyone's minds and not screw it up too badly for future generations.
it’s too late now to argue about that, we desperately need to get the future at the forefront of everyone’s minds and not screw it up too badly for future generations
I agree.
Well my conversation in the shelter we’ve built in the back garden for socially distanced coffees with friends was on the deal/no-deal question a few days ago (anyone surprised?).
I suggested that BoJo was trying to push agreement as close to 31st as possible because that gave him the opportunity to fold without too much scrutiny from Brexies, ERG types or other swivel eyed loons.
He had no need to extend if he wanted no-deal - going past the negotiating deadline with no EU (French?) climb down would have been enough and the far right section of the Tory government/parliament would have fallen in behind him.
Extending mainly weakened the ERG etc’s position. Particularly relevant if BoJo wanted to back down somewhere and get a deal.
I was hoping I’d read it right. With a Christmas Eve announcement I think I might.
We’ll see.
Sprouts!
Sprats!
I wonder if the ERG scum might vote against the deal and Labour vote for it.
God I hope not.
( Is there a UK vote on it?)
That’s exactly what’s about to happen
You think so ?
That would be ****ing catastrophic. And an absolute blinder by the Tories. Starmer must be shitting his pants.
If this turns out to be Labour's Brexit then BoJo will have bent Labour over a desk.
OMFG. The irony
I think Labour's mps need to find something else to do. Trip to Barnard castle maybe? The tories have enough non ERG nutters top carry this on their own. I'd leave it to them.
Or maybe Boris will remove the whip from those who don't support him... oh how I laughed.
Labour can’t risk being missing in action, much as I really want them just to leave the Tories to it… if Johnson got scared of his backbenchers and added non-negotiated extras or opt outs to get the vote done, he could easily make other governments reject anything that doesn’t match what the EU presents to them… and we’re back into No Deal speculation and damage of UK reputation and UK:EU relationships. Starmer, sadly, has to whip Labour to back the deal as it comes from the EU, whatever it contains, to prevent that.
If this turns out to be Labour’s Brexit then BoJo will have bent Labour over a desk.
Please, for the love of god don't treat that as being Labour's deal. They are not the ones who have negotiated it and are left with either approving whatever deal is there or forcing a no deal, it's not about who voted for it it's about what options were presented before them when they vote.
Labour need to abstain from the vote. They must.
This is the Tories cluster **** to carry.
and are left with either approving whatever deal is there or forcing a no deal, i
Disagree. It's nothing to do with labour.
If they vote for it then it becomes a lot to do with labour.
One if the most depressing things about this is the unending vista of Conservative rule we are facing.
The combination of Scottish independence and Remainders who will refuse to vote labour due to their pandering to Brexit will result in a near permanent Tory majority for decades to come.
Rubbish. I’m a remainder & will vote for Starmers labour in a heartbeat.
They have no choice. Brexit has happened & ND must be avoided at all costs. The opposition can’t choose the course but they can prevent a crash.
The combination of Scottish independence and Remainders who will refuse to vote labour due to their pandering to Brexit will result in a near permanent Tory majority for decades to come.
Labour might get in with the help of the the snp. Briefly. Then that’s the end of Labour. Hopefully a sensible party will emerge to give normal people an alternative to the tories.
Good news!
Although I see the polling on rejoining is now up to 49%. Demographic changes means there will likely be a majority for rejoining soon.
Rubbish. I’m a remainder & will vote for Starmers labour in a heartbeat.
Yes, but you are one person. I'm sue there are loads that agree with you, but also loads that don't, and that will be a deciding factor.
Although I see the polling on rejoining is now up to 49%. Demographic changes means there will likely be a majority for rejoining soon.
In the UK maybe. But what about the Euros? Even when we were in we were a pain in the arse. Having spent 4 years ****ing around leaving, I can't imagine they'll be all that keen on having the InsellAffen back....
thegeneralist
Free MemberThe combination of Scottish independence and Remainders who will refuse to vote labour due to their pandering to Brexit will result in a near permanent Tory majority for decades to come.
It's really tempting to say things like that but it's just not true. Remember "The Strange Death of Tory England" in 2005...
Truth is, FPTP weirdness aside, the gap between the two parties just isn't that massive- 11.5% in 2019, 2.4% in 2017, 6.5% in 2015, 7.1% in 2010, 2.8% in 2005, 9% in 2001. And who knows how a rUK votes?
As of now, the single biggest factor in UK politics is simply that the right wing is mostly behind one party, while the left are split. Lose that- either with a split right or a more united left- and it outweighs losing Scotland, frinstance.
The UK had an overall trade deficit of -£79 billion with the EU in 2019. A surplus of £18 billion on trade in services was outweighed by a deficit of -£97 billion on trade in goods. T
£79 billion reasons why the EU need us.
Not sure there's anything going to be in the 'deal' for services. So they've definitely won, as we predicted.
So Brexit deepens, rather then reduces, our balance of trade deficit with the rest of Europe? Project Fear.
Oh look, a deal, who’d have thought? There’ll be a few disappointed people on here today.
What's the easiest/quickest way to stop a war? Surrender.
£200bn spent, circa 5% hit on GDP long term, rule taker (not rule maker) and loss of FOM.
Top work.
£200bn spent, circa 5% hit on GDP long term, rule taker (not rule maker) and loss of FOM.
Top work.
Totally agree, it's bloody stupid. But that's the price of politicians and people at the top forgetting everyone else and doing what they want.
it is done!
welshfarmer
it is done!
Excellent. Now we can get on with taking back control by undoing Brexit.
The Brexit war starts in earnest in January I suspect.
So has this deal to be voted on and what's the likelihood it won't get through?
Given it strikes me it's going to be take it of leave it offer, surely no-one can be as stupid as to not vote for it.
As for Labour abstaining, why? I'm a Labour voter and if they are to choose between a shit deal and no deal they better be picking a shit deal. Only an idiot would think this is 'labour's deal' if they were involved in voting it through. They have no choice for good of country.
If this didn't get through because they abstained I'd not forgive them in a hurry.
Mrs Von der Leyen says competition rules "will be fair and remain so", promising EU rules and standards "will be respected".
She says "effective tools" have been agreed to "react if fair competition is distorted".
Level playing field then.
This is interesting.
European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen says: "This whole debate has always been about sovereignty.
"We should ask as ourselves what sovereignty means in the 21st century.
"It is about pooling our strength and speaking together in a world full of great powers.
"It is about pulling each other up in times of crisis instead of trying to get back to your feet alone.
"And the EU shows how this can work in practice."
I guess the shes saying the EU dont want to burn bridges. Who knows, a change of government in years to come may result in us coming back to them.
tpbiker
Full MemberAs for Labour abstaining, why? I’m a Labour voter and if they are to choose between a shit deal and no deal they better be picking a shit deal.
Sure, but that's not quite the choice. If the government have the numbers without Labour, then there's no risk of the shit deal so they're not choosing between the two- they're choosing whether to endorse the shit deal which is going to pass with or without them, or not.
I agree that personally I won't ever hold it against them if they support it but that's not how politics works- every time they criticize the government for their shit deal, forever, it'll be "but you voted for it".
Obviously different spin from both sides but this did jump out at me:
We have taken back control of our money, borders, laws, trade and our fishing waters
Since when did we ever lose control of our money? (Or indeed laws)
Ursula certainly made that sound like the EU banged their fist on the table and got what they wanted.
Lets see, but probably they did...
The Sky News longitudinal analysis piece is interesting.
What comes across is that Johnson’s problem isn’t that the EU is a political movement - actually quite the reverse.
It’s a rules based club and Johnson doesn’t like rules that you have to follow - he’s more into guidelines that you can play with according to the politics of the day. (Tory COVID behaviour, journeys, awarding contracts to friends etc would tend to support this).
The level playing field has been a problem because while we might want better standards, less subsidies etc, if it became politically expedient to do otherwise we wouldn’t want rules getting in the way now would we. Fishing on the other hand is straight politics, nothing more.
If the EU had been a political movement we’d probably still be in it.
I've heard Boris use the words World Class, does that also include the world class response to the virus? I'd trust Yodel to deliver a post Brexit economy more than this shambles. And my new Dada seat post was left with my neighbour this morning and I was in.
just seen the statement about free trade no rules control of borders etc. so what have they had to agree to to get this, that they are not wanting to spell out just yet?
I couldn't cope with Boris's waffle so shouted at Alexa to switch off, it didn't switch off.
I now have an Alexa dot in pieces after punching it.........brexit dividend?
My guess would be that it's a new deal in all but name. In reality the EU still holds the keys, we just don't get to have any say on how the rules are made.
Basically an illusion of 'taking back control' only.
So both parties subject to third party arbitration - question is by who? The WTO? So we are still subject to decisions by an unelected body. Great success lads.
So, let me get this right....
Boris Johnson is hailing as a victory ‘his’ deal which looks to be exactly the same as Theresa Mays deal, the one that he resigned over and voted against two years ago, saying it would be a disaster for the UK?
I’m not missing anything here am I?
The first (of many I suspect) ' oh yeah, that's not included in our world class deal. Sorry about that' emerges.
question is by who?
Well looking at what everyone is saying, reading between the lines and trying to square the circle...
We’ve agreed to follow EU trade and business rules and standards with a body to oversee it - it might be a brand new body.
The have given up our role in setting those rules.
We can stop EU types coming here to work.
They can stop UK types going there to work.
Some deal on fish.
We’ve given up EHIC and Erasmus.
And services access to EU markets.
But we got duty free allowances and blue passports (well according to the Brexies that last one - and shouldn’t cyclists have hi-viz passports anyway)
I think that’s it. What did I miss?
The bad day that the brexiteers have feared all along has finally arrived, this is the first day of the UK slowly but surely rejoining the EU.
this was supposed to be all about no deal, whoops they lost.
What is the situation with financial services now, without me reading 2000 pages of this document?
The bad day that the brexiteers have feared all along has finally arrived, this is the first day of the UK slowly but surely rejoining the EU.
They just haven’t realised it yet.
Will be interesting so see what whoopsies come out.
They've dumped Erasmus and Erasmus+.
That's a huge door closed for our young people, children and educators.
That and our business that last year had £300k of Erasmus+ income, supporting 3 jobs full time.
Yeah… but… Turing! [ details to follow - presumably not worked out yet - nice name though ]
Anyhow - does this mean the German bike shops will be fair game again?
Think so Purist but you havw to give a fish to the EU for each bike part you buy
To johnson was always going to throw fishermen under the bus to get a deal
Neglecting to include Scottish seed potato farmers is a gift to Sturgeon too
Anyhow – does this mean the German bike shops will be fair game again?
depends on HMRC,
I'm suspecting that fish and potatoes are the tip of the iceberg...
What is the situation with financial services now, without me reading 2000 pages of this document?
Not much in there at all for FS. So the migration of the FS firms to the EU will continue.
Great - so for an economy that is 80% services, we’ve spent 2 years arguing over fish instead! 🤬
Not much in there at all for FS. So the migration of the FS firms to the EU will continue.
Typical remainer doomsters and gloomsters . I think that the bankers will have plenty of the new opportunities in fishing and fruit picking.
I’m sure the tax take will be roughly similar
Yeah… but… Turing!
I'm not sure that'll pass the test, but then neither would Boris
Do you think the think the 'Haters and Regretters' are happy now?
Might have saved us from this national embarrassment if they had thought about their children's future ...
Is there any indication of anything to do with work permits for UKers, or is it just back to individual national rules as for other third parties?
Is it just me who thinks calling the new erasmus program "Turing" is taking the piss by naming it after one of the main people who "helped defeat the Germans"?
Or am I just being cynical?
Anyway, waiting until the 1st of Jan to sign up for the rejoin the EU party, whoever they happen to be. Not in any hope that it will happen but really to make sure that the folly of brexit remains in the public mind and who was redponsible.
Is it just me who thinks calling the new erasmus program “Turing” is taking the piss by naming it after one of the main people who “helped defeat the Germans”?
He also committed suicide after being prosecuted by the government for being a homosexual. The government later apologised for the appalling way he was treated.
A fair point but given how deliberately nasty and mindlessly jingoistic the current govt is I'm inclined to go with my opinion on this one.
It was a libdem private members bill that was acted on by the justice minister of the time ........ Chris Grayling. So he was probably actually trying to have the sentence increased rather than help pardon him.
Starter has said all the right things... that Labour will support the deal as it's necessary, but that the details and any failures lie solely at the feet of the government
Does this deal actually provide enough permits for the UK haulage industry.
Well what a giant waste of time and money that was/is. I can't believe they had the cheek to claim they've delivered everything they promised during the referendum campaign - that £350m a week extra for the NHS still coming is it?