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The fallacy laid bare...
All EU members are thier own countries and have the power of veto. As did we.
Try and expain that to a Daily express reader.
Tu n'en vaux pas la peine.
Not a smartarse question Ed, but why “la peine” and “en” in the same sentence? Is that how it’s said or can one leave out “la peine?”
Tu n’en vaux pas la peine.
Ouch! I appreciate you live in France, but please try to appreciate that most people in the UK do not want to leave the EU. we have family and friends spread all over, and brexit, at least from my perspective, is a self destrucive removal of my personal freedom, a removal of my rights and freedoms.
My human rights have been taken away because of a bunch of rich racists.
I used tu not vous making it a specific reply to one member, so don't consider yourself concerned, Mattyfez. A member who joined in November 2016 as some leave-voting STW members disappeared and then reappeared with new pseudos. The hate-the-EU discours gives the game away.
Odds on whatever deal they announce (if they do announce one) making it past the EU and UK votes? I have a sinking feeling they will try and paint it as a deal was done in time but those pesky unelected EU beaurocrats/Labour scuppered it at the last hurdle.
Makes for good headlines over the New Year and delays the chaos for a week or so.
Odds on whatever deal they announce (if they do announce one) making it past the EU and UK votes?
95%
I have a sinking feeling they will try and paint it as a deal was done in time but those pesky unelected EU beaurocrats/Labour scuppered it at the last hurdle.
Nah only 40 odd headbangers in tories, Labour will back a crap deal as no deal is insanity
EU may be more of an issue,MEPs not bothered about lack of time to scrutinise & remember the Walloons & CETA!
But they'll find a way to get it through
The rw press will laud Johnson as our saviour & hero
A few months down the line before they realise how much of a shitshow the deal is
Sigh
I used tu not vous making it a specific reply to one member, so don’t consider yourself concerned, Mattyfez
I appologise. But I am concerned.
I think the chances of the EU parliament rubber stamping whatever Michel Barnier agrees is highly unlikely, Mefty. They've not done it yet so why would they? It's generally years of debating ammendments to make everybody happy. Check out all the ammendments to the CETA before it was voted through.
German TV reporting a deal as good as done and EU parliament ready to meet tomorrow morning to give emergency ratification for 1st January
Edit. Though only as a temporary solution pending full scrutiny in the new year
emergency provisional ratification
Edit: that's better, Welshfarmer 🙂
Yep
Do our MPs have to vote on it?
Is there any chance of this deal being decent for those of us who didn't want Brexit, or in meeting the will of the people is it hard exit for all?
Check out all the ammendments to the CETA before it was voted through.
In the EU parliament there don't seem to be any.
EU parliament ready to meet tomorrow morning to give emergency ratification for 1st January
They might as well go home for Christmas, EU Council can apply provisionally unilaterally.
A continuity and allignment deal would have been quite easy so it clearly isn't going to be that. The withdrawal agreement is already harder than initially mooted in that a lot of indidual rights and reciprocal arrangements were wiped out with it. The trade deal is unlikely to be all of the avantages for business of being in the EU, we'll just have to read the text and see what's gone.
Statement from Johnson at 7pm
Merry Xmas!
Is there any chance of this deal being decent for those of us who didn’t want Brexit, or in meeting the will of the people is it hard exit for all?
Not much chance of that, pretty hard brexit
Is there any chance of this deal being decent for those of us who didn’t want Brexit, or in meeting the will of the people is it hard exit for all?
Well no FoM, but the question is the level of alignment. Reality is that the closer the UK remains to the EU the more easily achievable EFTA/EU membership is. Obvious other issues EHIC, Horizon, Erasmus etc will become clearer in the coming days.
What annoys me is that if a trade deal is agreed, all the brexiteers will claim brexit as a whole was a success even though the trade deal is just one thing out of many reasons I wanted to remain.
"As hoped, we are all now too beaten down and weary to care much about how bloody awful the deal is."
Like a child nagging for something in a shop over and over..... everyone has a point where the stress and exhaustion get the better of them and they just give up giving a damn.
I don't see the deal Barnier and Frost presenting being too bad. It's just that I don't see it surviving scrutiny by 27 countries and I don't know how many EU parliamentary groups. This is just the start point.
No announcement at 7pm by the looks of it, maybe later today and possibly tomorrow morning.
No announcement at 7pm by the looks of it, maybe later today and possibly tomorrow morning.
This is such a national embarresment.... the rest of the world is watching this.
All of a sudden...
Nothing happened!
Are they? I dont think anyone outside the UK really cares.
It's going to be the thinnest sliver of a deal isn't it? Granite hard Brexit basically with the real negotiations going on for bloody years...
The EU/ USA picking over our rotting corpse of a country. Less Scotland of course.
Moving on!
@dannyh Merry Christmas back at you mate and I think a 6 day break would probably do us all good to be honest. It's just so COMPULSIVE though.... Like actually watching the titanic sinking in ultra slo-mo in 8k with superb surround sound!
Are they? I dont think anyone outside the UK really cares.
You're right, they don't, they are just watching how not to run a country in future.
Maybe Boris could do "the ladybird book" on how to destroy an economy.
SO that's another brexit +, a book deal for a fat toff.
I don’t see it surviving scrutiny by 27 countries
Both sides were hatching a plan obviating the need for any scrutiny which could be terminal or indeed of any great significance. The EU parliament wont be an issue, never is.
Are they? I dont think anyone outside the UK really cares.
I've been exchanging messages with my mate who sells pigments to UK car industry clients among others. Believe me he cares and is tearing out what's left of his hair.
Are they? I dont think anyone outside the UK really cares.
The UK will need to start negociating trade deals pretty soon. Not just pretending to honour existing deals for an indeterminate period of time.
Put the shoe on the other foot, why would you make a deal with a known liar?
You got a link to this plan, Mefty?
The parliament can be an issue and is good at defending itself, you can be sure the parliament will be well advised:
https://www.ombudsman.europa.eu/en/decision/fr/120684
Put the shoe on the other foot, why would you make a deal with a known lier?
I guess they'll suddenly be 'under new management' at that point, and Mongo can head off for his book deal.
5000
Lorries stuck.
Someone was doing their nut in the supermarket today because they couldn't get a lettuce. Apparently it's those known marxists Tesco creating fake shortages to make people think that imports from europe are important. I went to sainsburys afterwards and I assume they must be marxists too. I wouldn't have guessed til today.
I'd say the lorries have focused our negotiators attention on the importance of a deal.
I'll ask again, why on earth the EU parliament would vote down anything which was negotiated by the EU appointed negotiators?
I’ll ask again, why on earth the EU parliament would vote down anything which was negotiated by the EU appointed negotiators?
Does it meet what they want? It is always possible that the negotiators moved too far from their brief.
There was always going to be a deal
The UK had an overall trade deficit of -£79 billion with the EU in 2019. A surplus of £18 billion on trade in services was outweighed by a deficit of -£97 billion on trade in goods. T
£79 billion reasons why the EU need us.
I just think it’s been dragged out so that parliament are in recess and can’t scrutinise the text of the deal.
It's definitely gone to the wire in order to force both parliaments into agreement. My cynical hat would say that this pleases the EU as much as Bojo and chums.
I just think it’s been dragged out so that parliament are in recess and can’t scrutinise the text of the deal.
a true democracy...
You can't force a parliaments to do anything unless they have just lost a war you won. In which case they are only puppet parliaments anyhow.
If there was anything to be learned from the withdrawal agreement it's that parliaments can and do vote against their leaders' wishes. Remember Mrs May's failed attempts to get her deal voted through.
EU parliamentarians will be reading every word of the 2000 pages. If it's suddenly gone quiet I suggest that in the little time they've had it they've found reason to phone Barnier.
Edit: watch a few Nigel farage at the EU parliament YouTubes and reflect on how it might go.
I’d say the lorries have focused our negotiators attention on the importance of a deal.
I’ll ask again, why on earth the EU parliament would vote down anything which was negotiated by the EU appointed negotiators?
The EP normally goes along with these things, but it does sometimes dig its heels in eg over ACTA. It has been kept in the loop here I think, so probably won't kick up a fuss. Your question is better inverted - why should separate institutions with competing interests and which are themselves made up of individuals with competing interests all take the same approach? The answer is politics, but politics can be unpredictable. There's plenty that can go wrong here.
Looks like we are signatories of ACTA outside of the EU. According to the map key on that page
I’d say the lorries have focused our negotiators attention on the importance of a deal.
I have a hunch that the Kent lorry fiasco this week has finally made the penny drop.
It’s been 4 and a half years now. It’s bound to be a better deal than what we had isn’t it? 🙏
No chance DD
£79 billion reasons why the EU need us.
Not a spectacular sum of money in the scheme of things, much of which we’d import anyway with customers paying the extra because we can’t presently make it here, and the percentage impact in their GDP would be significantly lower than the hit on ours.
So no a deal was not nailed on.
We’ll see what comes out, but the rumours are BoJo moved substantially, which would make sense in terms of the lateness of it all - if it's not a Farage approved Brexy friendly deal it’ll need railroading through. Easier to go that and avoid scrutiny if the clock’s in the red.
Of course maybe he’s just going to throw in the towel and flounce away from the negotiating table.
Either way taking it to the wire not only suits BoJo, it’s probably fundamental to his position.
No chance DD
🙀
No chance DD
It’s going to be absolutely ****ing brilliant, Bravissimo!!
We’re all going to have cake, but get this...
WE CAN EAT IT TOO!!!
What a result, eh? 😃
What are you doing to that cat DD?!?
£79 billion reasons why the EU need us.
Sounds like £79 billion more things we need from them. I mean, we could just not import all that nonsense…
More cabbage soup anyone? Yes, it is a bit aniseedy… again.
Well, I guess with us finally out of the way, Turkey will be joining soon?
Peston on the news a bit earlier.... Basically saying it's the only trade deal in history where after the deal we have more barriers to trade than before the deal. 😁
deadlydarcy
Free Member
Well, I guess with us finally out of the way, Turkey will be joining soon?
My brexity bil was telling me earlier he'll wait till after 1 January to see if we get a good deal.
He will never, ever see that the best deal that was ever possible was being part of the EU. We genuinely could have our cake and eat it. Most of the time anyway.
I pointed out that rather than having migrants from Eastern Europe to do the stuff we won't do.... They will now come from Africa, ****stan, India, the middle east etc etc instead. I'm not sure if he got the implication...
Amazingly, as well as being brexity he's a bit adverse to people of colour. Yeah...
Don't speak of logic or of common sense. For it has forsaken this land.
Someone was doing their nut in the supermarket today because they couldn’t get a lettuce.
That’s just the tip of the iceberg.
Basically saying it’s the only trade deal in history where after the deal we have more barriers to trade than before the deal.
It really is a special kind of special, isn’t it?
Someone was doing their nut in the supermarket today because they couldn’t get a lettuce.
romainer?
Bag of mixed leavers
Peston on the news a bit earlier…. Basically saying it’s the only trade deal in history where after the deal we have more barriers to trade than before the deal.
Of course this analysis ignores that barriers to the rest of world have on whole been reduced as a result of leaving.
Of course this analysis ignores that barriers to the rest of world have on whole been reduced as a result of leaving.
😂
Of course this analysis ignores that barriers to the rest of world have on whole been reduced as a result of leaving.
Aren’t all the trade deals we’ve been doing essentially rollovers of the EU-RoW deals?
Of course this analysis ignores that barriers to the rest of world have on whole been reduced as a result of leaving.
Please… do tell us more…
We've significantly reduced the external tariffs and simplified them, so we will now be a more attractive export market than the rest of the EU. Our new external tariffs are probably the most significant impact of Brexit but passed largely unnoticed as there was no theatre.
I'm digging deep here to find a short term positive for myself on a purely personal level.
It's likely that the glaucoma meds my mother has won't be in short supply now in January.
In this smelly mound of brexsh*t I'm just going to hang onto that at the moment.
We’ve significantly reduced the external tariffs
We’ve hardly reduced them at all.
There was talk of a proper dropping of MFN tariffs in the event of no-deal… but that just led to other countries shrugging their collective shoulders about the value of bothering to get an FTA with us, so was quietly abandoned.
And what about exports…? Services…?
Well, as an EU National resident (settled) in the U.K., I can get an EHIC for me, my U.K. born spouse and dependant (although, he’ll have the undoubted privilege of U.K. and EU (RoI) citizenship soon, the lucky belter) and the NHS will fund it all. Don’t anyone tell the gammons or tory shills. They’ll shit their pants.
^^ Yeah, as a solely UK citizen this really feels like a win for myself and my family.😟
Incredibly, this really will be sold as a win for the UK too.... and lapped up by many. Incredible really.
We’ve hardly reduced them at all.
Average tariff has gone down by more than 20% and there aren't any on services.
Most tariffs haven’t gone down at all, whole sectors have been untouched, just carried across from the EU ones… what is your 20% figure…? By volume, value?
Edit: Thinking about it, there are few tariffs above 20% to start with.
Edit2: Hang on, are you suggesting, for example, that dropping a tariff by 1%, say from 5% to 4%, means it has “gone down 20%”. Very good… sounds highly significant, well done you.
That’s just the tip of the iceberg.
Other lettuces are available, but you need to do a cos benefit analysis.
romainer
Lol la rosso
Edit....
Can't seem to do quotes on the phone!
1084 classes of goods have had the tariff converted from EUR to GBP but generally done at a lower rate but may change subject to currency movements. 2000 have been completely liberalised so tariffs removed. 3960 claases have had no change, mainly because they were already zero but this also covers motor vehicle related classes where we maintain tariff levels. 36 are reduced rather than wiped out and 860 are simplified and reduced.
German car manufacturers finally put the squeeze on then?
If the deal is as stated in today’s Times the outcome is ok - zero tariffs, zero quotas and no jurisdiction of European courts. It’s certainly a lot better than the doom mongers have been predicting.
This should be a relief on all sides - job losses avoided and a framework that should see us working together constructively on trade, environmental issues and security in the future.
So mefty… number of tariffs, not volume or value of goods? And not 20%? So we’re looking at a tiny amount of reduction in volume and value? How much? More than 10% of the value of imports from MFN countries? More than 2% of value of all imports? Just want to know what “significant” means?
Anyway, fingers crossed we can escape all of Europe putting us on their MFN tariffs in a week’s time… that’s what matters… what’s significant.