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I'm fully on board now with brexit being a very bad idea, I'm still not onboard with it being a conspiracy to make lives worse for everyone or lower standards, if that was the case why look at the american model and not the chinese one?
I'd use the term overboard 🙂
Just look at labour in the US to see where we’re going. Average paid holiday in the US is 10 days and that’s after working for a year.
the yanks have a bizarre interpretation of work ethic.
remember that they started from no paid holiday way back in history, and worked up to that.
we started from no paid holiday and worked up to 4-5 weeks being the norm. it would take generations to accept a regression in that. You can tell the population/employees that a recession, lack of customers and so on results in lower pay or lower hours; but take away someone's free time and try to justify it to the masses...
Sorry, I’m just confirming my thickness here.
You are not thick. You can see the world as it is… but with a major change like this… we have to ask… what the change is…
…and the arguments stopping a trade deal with the EU right now tell you so much… we want the “freedom” to have lower standards than them, yet want to keep tariff and quota free access if we do. That is the red line causing the problem… we have happily waved goodbye to Erasmus+, passporting rights for the City… very big and useful things we could have squeezed into a deal… but we will not commit to the idea that if we have lower standards than the EU, that they can reciprocate. Why? Because the point of Brexit (for those in charge of it) is to not have to match EU standards… to have lower standards to be “competitive”.
It doesn’t “have to” be worse. But, why else to do you think Brexit is happening?
I mean, Raab I think it was - said a few months back that a potential benefit was to have higher environmental standards than the EU (thus making our even more expensive in the market - like a kind of organic farm shop). And then anyone with any sense exclaimed "you lying so and so".
'Unlocking Potential' = 'Screwing People over'.
But the rabbits in the headlights haven't even registered the presence of the speeding car yet...
Well, perhaps I look at life differently. I like to see what I can do for someone else.
That’s great. Do you think Johnson* thinks the same way?
*insert the name of anyone who campaigned for Brexit and is now involved in negotiations for a replacement deal.
we started from no paid holiday and worked up to 4-5 weeks being the norm. it would take generations to accept a regression in that.
Take about a week! NO recourse to tribunals, no legally mandated minimum holidays, high unemplyment. Your choice become a job with no holidays or no job. anyone offering decent terms and conditions is then undercut. Holiday entitlement gone for most ( OK maybe a few months)
Of course not. I don't really know what way politicians think. I must note, I was born and grew up in Belfast. My view of 'politicians' and politics is quite different.
I don't know how, I don't know when, I just hope we can sort something and try our hardest to compete.
but take away someone’s free time and try to justify it to the masses…
You don’t “take it away” from anyone… you just let employers drop what they are offering in new contracts. As I said… the well off and stable will keep their holidays (many already get more than the minimum). The young and low paid will increasingly be employed with fewer rights, and that includes minimum paid leave being lower, or done away with. It’s already happening, and will accelerate as part of the “change” coming.
Folks please outline once and for all for myself and others exactly who is behind this lowering of standards? Names please?
You say the current gov are the frontmen for them, who are they?
I genuinely want to know.
Names please?
Some reading for you… the writers are not in hiding… they are now government ministers…
FT review from 2012 is well worth a skim:
“Britannia Unchained prescribes shock therapy for the country: welfare cuts and Beecroft-style labour market deregulation.”
I will give you a long term benefit – Instead of sending money to the EU to have it repatriated to us on a basis of need, we can spend it directly in the UK on the basis of whatever takes the fancy of the gov’ of the day, including but I am sure not limited to:
– Areas with their party MP
– Businesses owned by their mates
– Areas called LondonI mean that has to be a benefit, right?
Unfortunately the money we paid for membership generated far more within our economy, which is why we're seeing the Govt forecast an up to 7% reduction in GDP due to leaving.
7% of £2.9T is over £200bn - and the tax take from this is serious money compared to the £10-15bn net spend on membership.
Did anyone else see the Twitter link further down that haulage story about Clarrissa Ward?
She was doorstepping the FSB Agent that killed someone or other recently. In some gloomy run down block of flats in Russia.
Serious cahones. Sooner her than me...
My brother is a farmer (at the time of the referendum I asked him how he was going to vote and his reply was: "My heart says leave but my head says remain", he voted remain), a week or so ago I asked him what he thought would happen if as part of a UK-US deal we accepted GM foods/crops. His answer was basically forget any food exports other than fish to the EU.
The standards/level playing field conundrum neatly exposes one of the many brexit lies. As above it has been claimed that being outside the EU we can have higher standards* so therefore a level playing field would mean the EU stepping up to those higher standards rather than the other way round.
* I'm unaware of any EU regulation that actually prevents a member state from implementing higher standards.
the writers are not in hiding
As mentioned above but lost in the ether...this one has a lot of answers, Rees Mogg's Father...
we started from no paid holiday and worked up to 4-5 weeks being the norm. it would take generations to accept a regression in that.
Don't forget as far back as 2012 they changed the law so that if you are employed the company could sack you with a weeks notice from 1 yr to 2 yrs, once free of EU regs I can see these rights being further eroded.
https://www.riaabarkergillette.com/uk/dismissing-employees-2-years-service/
Apparently there are more applicants for Freeport status than the number likely to be approved, some somebody in the industry must think they’re a good idea.
Is that the Crime Industry? They love Freeports...
You don’t “take it away” from anyone… you just let employers drop what they are offering in new contracts. As I said… the well off and stable will keep their holidays (many already get more than the minimum).
I'm not even sure of that. With the double whammy of Covid and Brexit, firms will be looking to make savings / redundancies and can easily ask employees to take a holiday or pay cut in place of redundancies. It might be illegal to take it away unilaterally but you can 'voluntarily' accept it. I had to do it post 2008 banking; BA asked their staff to do it to reduce the lay offs....
Of course employment rights and unions will be there to fight our corner. As long as those rights aren't torn up at the same time.........
Can someone provide me with a list of countries that have higher standards than the EU. I've got a blank piece of paper at the moment.
But lower standards of what? Food production? Transport and infrastructure? Employment policies?
Sorry, I’m just confirming my thickness here.
No you're not, you're confirming your lack of curiosity.
Just a quick google should help, try reading this guy:
https://twitter.com/chrisgreybrexit?s=20
Bottom line is that the Govt is forecasting that Brexit will generate up to a 7% hit on GDP and also on the tax-take, consequentially it will need to reduce public spending. A major item of spending is public sector salaries & benefits.
What easier way is there than to reduce the cost of employment overall and then the Govt will automatically save too.
Just one example.
Some reading for you… the writers are not in hiding… they are now government ministers…
These people come across on this thread as the front men and are derided as idiots, its implied on this thread that there are people behind the government seeking to lower standards, who are they?
Dougiedogg.
Barclay brothers, Murdoch, Desmond, Arron Banks, Rees Mogg, the Inoes guy, Other financial manipulators
derided as idiots
They do not see the value in workers rights, but they are fully able to rid us of them in future… you do not need to be exceptionally bright to have belief in a project, and you get to carry it out if enough people support you… despite you telling them that you want to remove their rights. It’s bonkers, but examples of this happening don’t need seeking out. I mean, you can link to a book where government ministers state, on the record, in plain sight, that they want to lower workers rights, and still people will tell you that “they don’t really want to do that”.
I mean, you can link to a book where government ministers state, on the record, in plain sight, that they want to lower workers rights, and still people will tell you that “they don’t really want to do that”.
Or is it because most/many people fail to make the connection with 'workers rights' and 'that means I could be sacked tomorrow with no notice'. Many probably already think that's the case, in which case they don't see it as a loss. A significant number will even agree, because they only think it's the ****less and incompetent who will get fired, not themselves. And then there's the association between workers rights and crackpot 6th form socialist ideology (you see that a lot here), which will encourage many to take a view against their own interests.
Yup… many think that it is other people that need workers rights… because they haven’t yet benefitted from them themselves (they are wrong, everyone has)… but we’re not even talking that here… many people (across the country) really think that the government does not want to use Brexit to have lower standards than our regional competitor (ex-partner) countries… despite it being the sticking point in the current negotiations with the EU… and despite ministers having told us 8 years ago that this deregulation project is what they are in politics for… I find that lack of being able to accept the motivations of the politicians currently running this country depressing*. They think Raab, Patel, Kwarteng, Truss and co are just like us… having the best of intentions towards the workers of the UK… they, are, not… and they don’t even pretend to be.
*EDIT: forget depressing… glass half full time… this is also heart warming… that many of us trust people to do right by their follow Brits, even after they have described us as work shy and telling us that they want to lower standards and reshape our economy off the back off extreme deregulation.
Thanks TJ at least I can research those people now and get an idea of why they might be interested in lowering standards.
Told you
https://twitter.com/nicholaswatt/status/1338878071483543568?s=19
If he can get it past the tory headbangers it will be signed
Thanks TJ at least I can research those people now and get an idea of why they might be interested in lowering standards.
That's good, and it is the right thing to do, but your question is basically 'why might a business owner be interested in lowering wages?' If you genuinely don't understand that, then....
Business A has just found out that the new minimum paid holiday per year is five days. Business A currently offers 20 days a year. Business A is run by someone who just wants to maximise profit and doesn't give a shit about the employees. Business A has just gained about 6% extra capacity for nothing.
Business B is in direct competition with Business A and is not run by a total arsehole. Unfortunately Business A has just lowered its prices by 3% and is undercutting Business B. Business B's owner rang his customers to see whether they could stand the extra cost of buying from them knowing that they are a more ethical company. But most of his customers said "we don't run our business for the good of your employees". Business B's owner has just gathered all his staff together and is beginning to speak: "I'm really sorry guys, but...."
These Brexit fundamentalists are free market loons.
And if you don't think this is already happening out in the real world, it is.
Is that the Crime Industry? They love Freeports…
They do indeed. As do tax evaders. Britain is being set up as a tax haven off the coast of Europe
And a deregulated city is going to be what the Bank of Panama was during the 1980’s. A laundering operation for dodgy Russian Oligarchs, Mexican drug cartels and any other dodgy bastard with bent money that needs cleaning.
The price of property in Chelsea and Knightsbridge is about to go through the roof
unions will be there to fight our corner.
Course they will. If they can make capital out of it, otherwise forget it.
Who would have guessed that the French are threatening to blockade the UK
These people come across on this thread as the front men and are derided as idiots, its implied on this thread that there are people behind the government seeking to lower standards, who are they?
Liz Truss and all the Brexiteer cabinet ministers are all shit-thick useful idiots. You can bet your arse that the second they lose their ministerial positions they’ll immediately be appointed to obscenely paid ‘consultancy’ roles for a lot of the companies who stand to benefit from Brexit
As with most things in life, follow the money. Look who funded that Brexit Leave Campaign, then Boris’s leadership campaign.
Men like Crispin Odey
Are Boris Johnson's Hedge Fund Backers Driving Policy?
Binners, with any luck Odey will be deprived of an opportunity and his liberty as a result of the sexual assault charges which he, naturally, is denying.
You have to wonder why Odey is allowed to make hundreds of millions out of what is, in effect, insider trading.
I guess if you commit your crimes on a big enough scale it is potentially too embarrassing to prosecute you....
Dannyh
Not saying you are wrong but the opposite happened in my company, we received extra hols over the 28 minimum as we were losing employees to our workforce competitors.
Skilled jobs I'll admit.
I’m going to go out on a limb here and guess that Iain Duncan Smith, Jacob Rees-Mogg and Dominic Raab didn’t go into politics fuelled by a passionate desire to make sure everyone got more paid holidays.
And there you have it (see above) the foremost reason for Brexshit. Disaster capitalists making a fast buck, see the Bloomberg documentary from a few years ago. Farage features in it quite a bit.
I hope those wanting answers to why Brexshit is happening, are starting to see why, and maybe starting to realise there is nothing more to Brexshit than a money making scheme for the extremely rich.
Dannyh
Not saying you are wrong but the opposite happened in my company, we received extra hols over the 28 minimum as we were losing employees to our workforce competitors.
Skilled jobs I’ll admit.
I know the opposite is happening somewhere else. 'Flexibility' (I.e. making people less secure and more easy to screw over) is the buzzword right now.
Skilled jobs I’ll admit.
And this is the key issue. The fortunate, those with skills in demand, will be fine. We'll get paid and have cushy jobs. Everyone else will get ****ed over. This has always been the problem, which is why we have labour laws guaranteeing workers rights.
This is what's referred to as 'inequality'.
When they ‘Get Brexit Done’ They’re going to set about to do to the middle classes what Thatcher did to the working classes in the 80’s and 90’s. And they’re going to kick the ****ing shit out of the working classes just from force of habit.
Just to repeat: this is no longer anything resembling a Tory party in any recognisable form. Bar the fruit loops on the back benches. There’s nothing ‘one nation’ about this lot. The lunatics have taken over the asylum.
This whole Brexit project is about furthering the interests of the 1%. Or more likely the 0.00001%. A tax haven billionaires playground in London with a great big sweatshop attached to it.
I wonder if there's any independent body that might monitor who will truly benefit from Brexit? Love to see Ian Duncan Smith et al doing time.
I wonder if there’s any independent body that might monitor who will truly benefit from Brexit?
Probably the same ones that should make sure referendum campaigns are honest and fair
I wonder if there’s any independent body that might monitor who will truly benefit from Brexit?
Probably the same ones that should make sure referendum campaigns are honest and fair
I think this is probably going to be the most important question in the west for at least the next 10 years: How can democracy continue to function in any meaningful way, now that politicians have figured out that they can just lie, lie lie, about anything and everything, and (as has been amply demonstrated) there are simply no repercussions for doing so - at least not any significant enough to dissuade them from lying in the first place.
I have no idea what the solution to this looks like - and I know that politicians have always lied/cheated, but how does democracy respond to finding itself in a post-truth world where the old adage of a lie getting halfway round the world while the truth is still tying it's shoelaces, has never been truer.
I wonder if there’s any independent body that might monitor who will truly benefit from Brexit? Love to see Ian Duncan Smith et al doing time.
Err who's in charge for the next four years?
Illegal proroguing of parliament was just the tip of the iceberg. It really worries me how fragile our democracy actually could be against these cheats and liars.
The worry for me is that upcoming economic implosion will enable really nasty political movements to gain in popularity. I mean, Farage and his Tory sleeper cell are nasty, but they are primarily using right wing populism as a means to line their own pockets. What if a total nutter formed a party? Given the mood music behind Brexit and the genuinely nasty emotions stirred up before, during and after, who is to say a really vile movement wouldn't succeed?
Certainly a lot of the stuff I saw on social media was along the lines of "this is just the start, we are the unheard Patriots" etc.
What if a total nutter formed a party?
Agreed - Trump has written the playbook, there are lots of people paying attention.
Robert 'Honest Bob' Jenrick will be taking his turn to lie and be made to look a twerp defending fatboy on R4 in a bit. Tune in to hear someone who knows he is lying and sounding ridiculous, but doesn't care because he is eyeing up a nice fat bank balance.
He gets a regular trot out, presumably because he got to keep his job despite admitting to acting illegally. Johnson wins him 100%.
And this is the key issue. The fortunate, those with skills in demand, will be fine. We’ll get paid and have cushy jobs. Everyone else will get **** over. This has always been the problem, which is why we have labour laws guaranteeing workers rights.
This is what’s referred to as ‘inequality’.
I was having an equivalent conversation on Twitter with a Leaver regarding Human Rights.
As usually they were totally against anything even vaguely to do with 'Europe', including the ECHR. So I just asked, "which human right are YOU happy to lose". Yep, flounced off.
All these folk wanting less rights for workers/H&S/environment etc don't believe it'll impact THEM. But for the majority, it will impact them, they're just too stupid to see it.
Now for another happy thought, constituency boundary reform, AKA gerrymandering.
Allowing the Scots to have another ref would be the most effective route to permatory rule down here.
And this is the key issue. The fortunate, those with skills in demand, will be fine. We’ll get paid and have cushy jobs. Everyone else will get **** over. This has always been the problem, which is why we have labour laws guaranteeing workers rights.
This is what’s referred to as ‘inequality’.
Vividly remember chatting to my leaver mate about Airbus and potential job losses - his solution was "retrain". As ****ing what?!?
As **** what?!?
Fruit picker.
Fruit picker.
That's pretty much it at the moment - perfect for ex-aerospace engineers.
Sorry, but when I cease to be an aerospace engineer, I'm full expecting those lazy ****ers that "have had their jobs stolen by the eastern europeans" to be my servant. I'm generous, I'm not going to come back and steal their job opportunities. I expect them to be my fruit picker, shelf packer, bus driver, plumber, ...
Those that have not been able to work "due to immigrants" should not only have first dibs, but should also be forced to do such jobs.
Oh they didn't really have their jobs stolen?
I shall retrain as a professional early retiree, and expect them to both fund that, and serve me.
Now for another happy thought, constituency boundary reform, AKA gerrymandering.
Remember like policing governing is by consent. We may have to withdraw our consent in a manner that leaves those in the executive in no doubt that they are going the wrong way.
Those that have not been able to work “due to immigrants” should not only have first dibs, but should also be forced to do such jobs.
Reunified Ireland.
Independent Scotland.
Now this!
Why was I ever indifferent to Brexit?
Just had a message from my sister in law who lives in Austria. She’s posted some stuff for Christmas but says that DPD there not accepting parcels for the uk after 18th December due to uncertainty over tariffs etc.
Easiest. Deal. Ever.
Well done leavers 👏👏 you’ve got what you wanted. Now what?
I think this is probably going to be the most important question in the west for at least the next 10 years: How can democracy continue to function in any meaningful way,
Very off topic, but I believe you are in Australia @batfink ? Do you have similar issues down there?
Those that have not been able to work “due to immigrants” should not only have first dibs, but should also be forced to do such jobs
I expect you'll find benefits reduced quite a lot too. The cabinet are decidedly unkeen on people who don't work.
I expect you’ll find benefits reduced quite a lot too.
Benefits? Not while there's all that fruit that needs picking...
The cabinet are decidedly unkeen on people who don’t work.
Unless they are PM.
It makes me so angry, how have the know-it-alls let this happen? Squirming away from their responsibility, moaning and frothing, blaming everyone but themselves.
It makes me sick, they've sat on their arses for decades living the Thatcher dream, behaving more like the elites than the norms.
It's time to call these scum out and force them to act. Not only do they sit and watch while the neighbour's house burns down, they sat there knowing a fire was about to start. It's shameful.
Sorry for the ranting buy I am so fed up with the apathy of the know-it-alls, I just need to vent.
Who are these know it alls?
Don't bother.
I've never seen exsee and ckewkw in the same room. Makes you think.
Would the know-it-alls ever consider getting involved in politics?
Not a bloody chance unless their bubbles get popped.
Busy looking after themselves living like right wingers but claiming they hate the right wing.
Think back to the European parliament elections, the know-it-alls were frothing about e petitions while farage and co were hammering the EU
Top job know-it-alls, 30 years of apathy have led us here, I hope you're proud💩
Don't take drugs, kids.
Or start drinking too early
30 years of apathy have led us here
Hard to disagree with this. Is Exsee a know-it-all?
Yep
You may jest Kelvin but the more I rant and point out the truth, the more responsibility I feel, I'm getting my inspiration back, I feel energised again. The ranting is just the beginning for me, I'm going to burst a few know-it-all bubbles and drag them kicking and screaming back to their roots.
The know-it-alls need a kick up the ahole, could I do more, oh yes, much much more 😤
Where the **** are all the norms on here, why aren't they shutting down the sneering know-it-alls that troll the shit out of every political thread
Call the scum out, force them to act
If they have all the answers then why didn't they do anything. Sneering at their brothers and sisters like good little right wingers. Scum
Just though id dip into this thread...saw some recent posts
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EU making some encouraging noises, still waiting for Boris to pop up and say he won't sign a deal unless they make him king of the world or some such nonsense though.
I'm sorry exsee I'm not sure what your position actually is.
You seem to hate neoliberals - which most people on this thread will share.
You seem to be pro Brexit though, and it's harder to figure out why.
Don’t take drugs, kids.
Or start drinking too early
🙊
Don’t take drugs, kids.
Or start drinking too early
I always until noon.
@molgrips - you clearly aren't a know it all - if you did you'd know their position
Wish I knew it all, I'd know so much more than I do now.
the more I rant and point out the truth,
do let us know when you plan on starting that
Dont really think its a case of "know it all" its all mostly in plain sight but often thats the best way of hiding.
This view is the standard "Dom" lets smash up the system... which has some merit if it were actually smashing up the system but its not.
The system is in plain sight, no one is smashing the system.... the system is smashing its resources (humans) and wants to rebuild them cheaper, faster and easily disposable, its a "Primark" business model.
I don't know it all even after nearly 60 years of living in this place, i dont know what i dont know.