They don’t need to worry, though, because they’ll blame everyone else other than themselves.
This. Forever. It’s how they started. It is of course how they’ll go on. The leave campaign was largely ‘Us vs them’ and it appealed directly to that mode of thought/personality. It also bolstered decades of drip-drip ‘up yours’ anti-EU/anti-immigrant tabloid propaganda/outrage-bait that is as much a part of the English ‘education’ as the fact that ‘we’ won WW2 because of Britishness.
This report includes several different surveys and opinion polls asking Britons why they voted the way they did in the EU referendum. It identifies that the two main reasons people voted Leave were ‘immigration’ and ‘sovereignty’, whereas the main reason people voted Remain was ‘the economy’.
The report also identifies several other resasons why people voted leave such as ‘to teach British politicians a lesson’ or a ‘protest vote’. Among possible reasons for voting Remain is ‘a strong attachment to Europe.’
Education is a factor. Was it the factor? Probably. Outweighed of course by a rushed ‘advisory’ Y/N referendum which was sold by Leave as ‘last chance’, ‘your decision will be implemented’) kicked into play during recession/austerity and won a by what I feel to be a criminally slim majority given the importance and significance of the decision.
The paper, published in the peer-reviewed journal World Development, applied a multivariate regression analysis and logit model to areas of the country to identify why people voted the way they did.
The level of higher education in an area was far more important than age, gender, the number of immigrants, or income in predicting the way an area voted, the researchers found.
Age and gender were both significant but not as important as education level, the researchers found. Income and number of immigrants in an area were not found to be a significant factor in how people voted.
There were iirc two anomalous areas (Malvern and N Devon) where they voted leave yet were also on average more educated. It’s probably no coincidence that the two areas are characterised by an older, insular, whiter, and typically Tory population.
Just been rereading a book on critical thinking and it talks a lot about 2016 us election and brexit referendum. It has this assessment of an individuals psychology:
His primary rules were: never allow the public to cool off; never admit a fault or wrong; never concede that there may be some good in your enemy; never leave room for alternatives; never accept blame; concentrate on one enemy at a time and blame him for everything that goes wrong; people will believe a big lie sooner than a little one; and if you repeat it frequently enough people will sooner or later believe it.
At first reading I assumed that it was talking about Trump, Boris, Cummings or some other moral vacuum of a vote leave high up. Turns out, and at the risk of invoking Godwin, it is actually a profile of Hitler drawn up by the US office of strategic services during WW2 and is now considered to be the blueprint for tyrrany and dictatorship.
Godwin won’t help the fact that a good percentage of the electorate believe their blonde savior is delivering them from both Stalin/ism and the hordes of impure job-stealers and human vermin
Education as in the issue of remain/ leave or education in general?
If it needs explaining then.............
If it needs explaining then………….
Almost as if there’s a theme. ‘Who needs experts’...when this thing called ‘gut-feeling’ is all you need. There is also ‘common sense’. You can use it as a label for any thought/motive. Brilliant! Cheesypeez
Its a pity they didnt do an IQ test as the exit poll, we could have used it to discount a lot of votes
Education as in the issue of remain/ leave or education in general?
Who was the last forumite who did this? I vaguely remember (probably on the original of this thread) someone striding in and throwing all sorts of brash assertions around with a Pomp and Circumstance background tune - parump....parump....parumpety....boom -tish.
They ended up like this too. Querying the semantics of words such as 'and', 'it' and 'or' ad nauseam.
But I suppose reductio ad absurdum is the logical path of any blindly optimistic defence of Brexit, so no real surprise there.
I think I'm still allowed to challenge the, "everyone is stupid we are smarter attitude" which previals on STW.
I think I’m still allowed to challenge the, “everyone is stupid we are smarter attitude”.
You are. Challenging it without proving it is difficult when you get into any detail, though.
Absolutely. It would help if you could post something both sensible and positive about Brexit. The floor is yours....
Education as in the issue of remain/ leave or education in general?
Moot question. The two are so very closely intertwined in this context as to be indistinguishable from each other IMO.
Moottrying to divert the discussion down a rabbit hole of ever smaller clarifications question.
FTFY.
Dougiedogg
If you want to challenge that stereotype then please list the actual real advantages we get from brexit. NOt just platitudes but concrete advantages
“everyone is stupid we are smarter attitude”
There are people far smarter than any of us who want Brexit to happen because they stand to benefit from it.
Do you stand to benefit from it? If so, how?
Its a pity they didnt do an IQ test as the exit poll, we could have used it to discount a lot of votes
Mainly leavers - the educated folk voted remain by a huge margin.
Do you stand to benefit from it? If so, how?
My company sells a lot into the US market, a trade deal would no doubt help us
Even if the price of that deal is a reduction in employment protection to us standards to remain competitive?
^ Bingo
All that guff to get to the point. So how does that help the UK long term? And is this (partly?) why you never got back about the NHS selloff docu I politely asked you to consider watching? Getting a big whiff of the ‘I’m alright’ part of the union Jack here? As ever, open to evidence rather than the oft-unreliable git-instinct.
Even if the price of that deal is a reduction in employment protection to us standards to remain competitive?
Do you think that's on the cards? I thought part of the Gov manifesto was to improve min wage/rights etc?
^. Bingo. I suspected as much but remained polite
Euroscepticism was my main motivator at the time
Its certain thats the aim Dougie. The tories have said so. "bonfire of red tape"
If you really think that the tories who have fought every improvement in workplace rights and who have eroded many hard earned rights are going to improve things you are living in lala land. We already have the worst rights in western europe and in the european discussions one of the sticking points is that the tories want to be able to reduce standards below the EU minimums to undercut EU companies
My company sells a lot into the US market, a trade deal would no doubt help us
No doubt? Strong words. Good luck.
dougiedogg
MemberI thought part of the Gov manifesto was to improve min wage/rights etc?
Like how they've committed to not lowering food standards?
Do you think that’s on the cards? I thought part of the Gov manifesto was to improve min wage/rights etc?
Yes it was on the manifesto but although our terms and conditions are allegedly better than Europes they would not legally sign to keep it that way (why would they do that then ?)
A 12% paycut has just been brought in by my firm as the economy/construction has tanked, hopefully some of these magical trade deals will get it back for me
Do you think that’s on the cards? I thought part of the Gov manifesto was to improve min wage/rights etc?
Tory? Manifesto? Pledge?
Do me a favour, you are now wing people off.
They've already reneged on countless 'promises'. Why was so much on standards specifically moved from the WA to the Political Declaration? Answer, because one is legally binding, the other isn't.
For *'s sake man.
Do me a favour, you are now w***ing people off.
I think Dougie is just trolling
His comment about wanting to be like Switzerland was too daft to be real, at this point no one is unaware what concessions Swiss have to make for SM access
BS or not?
UK pharma is also concerned that the UK could drop out of a Europe-wide initiative to crack down on fake medicines as a result of Brexit.
Arrangements under the falsified medicines directive (FMD) came into effect this month allowing medicines to be traced along the supply chain using a special barcode.
But it is not clear whether the system will be in place in April as Brexit would require the UK to leave the system.
Dr Rick Greville, director of supply chain at the Association of the British Pharmaceutical Industry (ABPI), said: “Billions of packs of medicines travel around the EU annually, destined for over 500 million patients. This new system means that patients across Europe will have the best protection from fake medicines in the world.
“It would be an absolute travesty if NHS patients aren’t part of a system specifically designed to protect them. But that’s exactly what could happen in a ‘no deal’ Brexit. It is just another reason why we urgently need a Brexit deal.”
https://pharmaphorum.com/brexit-implications-pharma/
The UK could pay £500 million more per week for drugs following a post-Brexit trade deal with the USA.
Worry? or not?
https://fullfact.org/health/500-million-nhs-drug-prices/
The NHS is on the table and your response is to grab a Dougie-bag? #atthetable
singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/brexit-2020/page/46/#post-11312784
You do know what America first means, don’t you? Don’t expect a trade deal that helps you if it risks US interests.
He's got to be trolling he believed Boris when he said the Tories would improve pay/rights 🤣🤣🤣
Ok, you guys are right, I've done my best, I'm wrong. I'm nieve but I've learned a lot from this.
Apologies for wasting your time. If I waste any more of mine I'll get sacked and I wont be able to blame brexit
Genuinely not trolling though.
And im still a eurosceptic
You do know what America first means, don’t you? Don’t expect a trade deal that helps you if it risks US interests.
And add to that the fact that once Trumpy (if it is him) have been handed the keys to the NHS and start demonstrating a benefit to US voters of increased drug pricing, no US president, not Obama, not Kennedy, not FDR, not Mother ****ing Theresa will be able (or willing) to reverse it.
Come election time, can anyone honestly see a US presidential candidate stand up and say "We're going to put drug prices here in the US back up so we can pass on the benefit to Britain"?
This stuff is irreversible.
And im still a eurosceptic
You can be 'sceptical' about something without burning your own house down to demonstrate your scepticism.
You are wasting everyone's time now.
Actually scrub that. I am wasting my own time being trolled by you, and I can do something about that.
Time to take back control. I'm out for a bit.
Euroscepticism was my main motivator at the time
And im still a eurosceptic
I'd gathered that, the question is why? What don't you like about being part of a strong trading block that has been succesful in defending your interests for the last 40 years, including reasonably fair trading arrangements with the US which are so important to your job?
these broad and far-reaching changes, will arise under any scenario, regardless of the outcome of negotiations between the European Union and the United Kingdom.
Keep scrolloing down, it gets really interesting at financial services.
So many docs to read:
This one is for the Channel Tunnel, and insists that the whole link be under EU regs… with France being handed the responsibly for sorting that with “us”.
OK Dougie took his toys, but can anyone support his concerns of an EU ‘superstate’? I believe in trying one’s level best to try and gather indeoendent evidence which SUPPORTS one’s opponent’s arguments, ie try and win their argument rather than defeat it. This, I find, is a good way to see how well that argument stands ups. Best practise and all.
I’d like to see the ‘evidence’ that fuelled the scaremongering*. He didn’t just pluck it out of his gut? IIRC Dougie said that of all issues that the ‘superstate’ was the ‘crux’ of his gut-instinct before voting leave. So what fuelled that instinct?
*(other than the drip-drip of decades of baseless bullshit in the shape of anti-EU/Nationalistic tabloidism that happened long before before the tsunami of same leading up to referendum)
I’m nieve but I’ve learned a lot from this.
Apologies for wasting your time.
If the former statement is sincere then it's not been a waste of time.
can anyone support his concerns of an EU ‘superstate’?
I don't actually know what he / it means or why it was something to be concerned about. I asked for clarification but (I know, I was astonished too) didn't get an answer.
I think that, in addition to the lazy and baseless reporting of "them EU lot dictating to us/wanting an army" etc, lazy politicians using the EU as a scapegoat go hand in hand, and fuelled the "them and us" mentality.
Yes I am sincere you guys have taught me alot, and I have to admit I was heavily biased to vote leave by my father. My father said that to have a nation you need a currency and an army, we have the euro so ....
Edit I knew it wasnt plucked from thin air,
German chancellor Merkel said “we ought to work on the vision of one day establishing a proper European army” in her address to the European Parliament in November 2018
On my gut feeling
Its the whole ever closer thing, where does it end? I saw how Tony Blair teamed up with USA to take us into two wars which I was desperately against, yes I know NATO could do the same. I just imagined a time when we are so integrated with the EU that we now have a bloc which can field an army, we don't need more armies.
The EU has never stated what the end goal of union is, is it to maintain the status quo until the end or will it become one large federal state?
I also fear us being so entwined in the whole thing that if it does come down we end up even worse off.
You can laugh at my fears but are they relevant? Yes gut feelings are logically irrational but they exist and cant be ignored.
Interesting. Why do you frame the European Union as something with an ‘end goal‘?
Because everything comes to an end, every country and nation comes to an end and changes, and yes the EU has been stable for 40 years but thats a blink of an eye in human history. So what is the direction? Maintaining the status quo will lead to stagnation, so where does ever closer lead?
