What has everyone here so convinced that Boris is aiming for a WTO style no deal brexit?
Because.
That.
Is.
What.
Is.
Going.
To.
Happen.
His current angle is an "Australia style deal." Australia does not have a trade deal with the EU. They've been negotiating one - for over two years and counting now. This is simply "no deal" in a cork-dangling hat and Craghoppers. At the risk of repeating myself: you are being manipulated.
What would that achieve?
It'd make a lot of disaster capitalists even more obscenely rich for starters. I mean, Rees-Mogg's father literally wrote the book on this.
What has everyone here so convinced that Boris is aiming for a WTO style no deal brexit? What would that achieve?
you know the theories of how Disaster Capitalism works, right?
Ask Jacob Rees-Mogg. His dads a master. A large majority of the present cabinet have serious form on this front
The reason you’re not getting this, as are the vast majority of Brexit supporters, is that you’re still harbouring the quaint illusion that, in the long term, any of this lot give a flying **** what happens to the UK Economy.
They really couldn’t care less. Their motive is pure, naked greed and financial self-interest. The interests of the ‘little people’ don’t even figure in proceedings
yes it evolved into more
It was always more.
But still, we were told by Vote Leave that when we leave the EU we would do so with a replacement Trade Deal that gave us full access to a "free trade zone" that included the EU and the other European countries... one that stretches from Iceland to Turkey and to the Russian border. What are you thoughts on the notion, reported in the Telegraph, that the Vote Leave government is giving up on a new deal? Ignore those of us that suspect that they never wanted one... just let us know what you would think of that not happening? Would you not mind? Would you feel let down? Or would you look to blame those not part of the Vote Leave team?
The best situation was remaining within the EU and using our influence
As 6th largest GDP why do we lose influence outside of the EU?
Countries like Germany, China, France, etc. have sovereignty, because they are wealthy and powerful states
As is the UK
Yeah and UK have been a driving force on its evolution
As 6th largest GDP why do we lose influence outside of the EU?
Well as we're about 10x smaller we are about 10x less influential?
Look how easily Johnson caved to Varadkar on Irish Sea customs border!
Ireland got to dictate terms they'd wanted from day 1 & Johnson folded like a wet napkin !
They really couldn’t care less. Their motive is pure, naked greed and financial self-interest. The interests of the ‘little people’ don’t even figure in proceedings
Except during election time?
I don't understand the sustainable nature of "disaster capitalism" and why any party would base policy on it, even one with a Moog in it. The financial crash ended labour, why would it be any different for the current party?
It isn't sustainable. And, again, you think they are acting for the country, or even the party... they are not. Vote Leave have already 'ended' the Conservative party... or at least hollowed it out and made it their own.
Well as we’re about 10x smaller we are about 10x less influential?
Look how easily Johnson caved to Varadkar on Irish Sea customs border
Surely that had as much to do with the GFA as anything?
Maybe we can decide where that money goes ourselves as opposed to it being decided by a council of member states?
You genuinely don't see a benefit to coordinating aid?
We decide unilaterally to support, to continue my previous example, Italy as they are badly hit. So do a dozen other countries. Result, whoever is second most badly hit gets shit. Collating it into a central point means it can go out in a fairer distribution.
Besides, who are we to make that decision? We get to pick and choose based on, what, who's got the nicest holiday lets? Do you make donations to charity with a little note dictating that they can only spend it on research and not new office chairs?
As 6th largest GDP why do we lose influence outside of the EU?
We were the fifth largest three years ago. We're heading for 7th with India snapping at our heels.
Are we learning yet?
I don’t understand
So maybe start listening to those who do?
Just because you or I do not understand something does not make it untrue. That's how religions get started.
Christ, that’s how brexit got started. Four years ago.
Surely that had as much to do with the GFA as anything?
Brexiteers spent 2 years telling us GFA was not a problem
Johnson specifically said no PM could ever sign up to customs checks
His own words....
https://twitter.com/JamesMelville/status/1184527118773997571?s=19
The financial crash ended labour, why would it be any different for the current party?
The people you’re talking about here don’t even care about Brexit. They never did. They just hitched themselves to it as a means to deliver their agenda and enrich themselves.
They certainly don’t care about quaint old outdated notions like political parties or sovereign countries.
The people who’s interests are being exclusively served here are a stateless, globalised super-rich elite
Given the Brexit message, it would be hilariously ironic if it weren’t for the fact it’s going to do us all such enormous damage.
You’re right in one respect though...
they know full-well they’ll only ever get one crack at a scam on this scale. Hence there being no limit as to what they’ll stoop too to achieve it (Russian collusion anyone?). They know they’re finished politically once the true economic scorched earth of Brexit becomes reality.
They don’t care. They never had any interest in politics in the first place.
This isn’t a political ideology. This is a bank job!
Here. Stop typing and read this.
You can also read the blog of Dominic Cummings (our unelected, unsackable de facto PM) where he admits to most of these things.
So what I'm hearing here is that our government are acting on behalf of a malevolent global elite who will happily sink an entire country for their own gain? As opposed to maintaining the status quo which would lead to a more slight gain albeit a sustainable one?
Seriously?
Seriously?
Is it any more far-fetched than the "Lisbon Treaty 2020" and all the other bollocks that your lot have all swallowed up without question?
Do you look at Johnson, Cummings, Rees-Mogg, Gove et al and think "yep... these are a stand-up bunch of guys in tune with the populace who have our best interests at heart, whom I trust implicitly and whom I have no doubts will come through with all their promises at the end of the year"? Given their track record of honesty and string of roaring successes so far?
To coin a phrase: "seriously?"
Yes seriously doug. Thats the whole purpose of this.
BTW there is no such thing as a WTO "deal" its a set of rules and almost no country in the world operates totally under them - and Brexit HAS happened - we are out but in a transition.
So what I’m hearing here is that our government are acting on behalf of a malevolent global elite who will happily sink an entire country for their own gain?
There you go. We got there in the end.
Note that the architect of this project, despite being our de facto PM has no political allegiance at all. He’s not, and never has been, a member of the Tory party. He’s on the record saying how much he despises the party, and reserves particular venom for the Brexiteer ERG who despise him right back.
He’s assembled a team which consists of a front man, who believes in nothing but himself and a load of spineless non-entities, most of whom are as thick as mince, all unquestioningly doing as they’re told.
What’s happened in the last five years is essentially a coup. The overthrow of the Traditional political establishment. It’s just that most people haven’t realised it yet, including most of the idiots in parliament who are enabling it
They soon will.
It’ll be too late then though. Its already too late.
They’ve won. We’re just the mugs who are going to have to spend the next decades trying to undo the damage these wreckers are about to inflict on us
dougiedogg, why not look at the evidence, rather than relying on your pre conceived notions of what must be the case? The game has changed and past notions of integrity, however flawed, have gone completely out of the window.
People need to wise up to this, quickly.
almostno country in the world operates totally under them
FTFY. The only country to operate solely on WTO was the economic powerhouse of Mauritania and I'm pretty sure they got a deal with someone somewhere (probably the EU, ironically) a couple of years ago.
There's a reason for this. Can you work out what it is?
So, you think maintaining the status quo will lead to a small but sustainable gain?
Suggest you revisit that premise at Dec 31st.
Johnson isn't capable of original thought so he surrounds himself with a clown circus in whose company he appears competent.
Actually, that's worth stressing, because it's important.
Every single country on the planet has negotiated trade deals to improve on WTO. WTO is the worst way to trade, it's not a 'freedom,' it's a fallback when you've got nothing.
The sum total of our negotiating for the last four years has been to line up theoretical deals with half a dozen developing African nations, all bar two of which we already had an agreement with via the EU, and ****ing Lichtenstein. Australia have been negotiating with the EU for TWO YEARS and haven't reached an agreement yet.
We are, conservatively, doomed. And you wanted this. You voted for it. And you're sitting here right now defending it still. And for what? Blue bloody passports.
... and come this time next year, don't say you weren't warned. "Project fear," another great lie to dismiss the opposition and deflect proper scrutiny.
Are we learning yet?
I'm still not seeing an explanation of why the EU or any country for that matter will willingly through away the ability to easily trade with an affluent country full of consumers?
As you guys say no one trades on WTO rules so why would we suddenly be doing this?
I’m still not seeing an explanation of why the UK or any country for that matter will willingly throw away the ability to easily trade with an affluent market of
515448 million consumers?
Fixed that for you.
so why would we suddenly be doing this?
Because, while it is damaging for the country as a whole, and for the majority of the population, it benefits a few, who see opportunity in it. Others still hope to benefit from the measures we will have to take as a country because of that damage.
I’m still not seeing an explanation of why the EU or any country for that matter will willingly through away the ability to easily trade with an affluent country full of consumers?
Be honest with yourself, how much homework did you do regarding the likely UK-EU trade-barriers that would result from a ‘no deal’ exit? What answers did you get? Or didn't you ask? To again coin a phrase: Why would you suddenly be doing this now?
The point about echo chambers is correct though… this is a useful trading of understandings here now, even if minds aren’t changed. Thank you dougie.
Anyway, before the referendum, the (Conservative) government spelt out the options for future trade, and expected timescales to achieve them. All still true in the main:
The WTO rules option is in there, and explained clearly. The trade offs required for the other options are clear as well… and you’ll remember them long since being derided as ‘not real Brexit’, after the referendum, by people using that to gain power.
I’m still not seeing an explanation of why the EU or any country for that matter will willingly through away the ability to easily trade with an affluent country full of consumers?
The EU didn't, we did.
As you guys say no one trades on WTO rules so why would we suddenly be doing this?
You tell us, you voted for it. We've been told repeatedly and continually that "we knew what we voted for."
We're "suddenly doing this" because charlatans at the top and in the media duped half of the country.
Are you angry yet?
As you guys say no one trades on WTO rules so why would we suddenly be doing this?
Because a bunch of thick ****s voted for it.
Oh, tw4ts is swear-filtered. Well, you get the idea. I didn't say cvnts at least.
Be nice.
I’m still not seeing an explanation of why the EU or any country for that matter will willingly through away the ability to easily trade with an affluent country full of consumers?
There are 27 of them, there’s one of us. They’re a huge economic trading block. We’re not. They’ll take a minor hit for 6 months - as they know that at that point we’ll have no option, due to the economic carnage we’ve endured, to go crawling back To them literally begging for a deal.
At which point the EU will say ‘there you go... take it or ****ing leave it’. As will the Americans, the Chinese and everyone else.
You’re still labouring under this charming old illusion that the present government give a shit about any of this
They don’t
As some of us have been pointing out for years: these people are not on your side. They couldn’t give a toss about any of us.
A good rule of thumb to work on is that anyone who runs their entire campaign on nationalism, xenophobia and naked populism is only ever out for what’s in it for themselves.
They all actually hate the people of the nation they claim to champion and will happily use them and then discard them without a second thought
That's the core difference between the left and the right. Like, when you strip it right down to its fundamental essence.
The left are fighting to save what they love.
The right are fighting to destroy what they hate.
And that right there is the difference between Leave and Remain. Leave was fuelled by hate and anger from the outset. "Here's all the things that are wrong, and it's all their ➡ fault." Meanwhile the Remain argument was Mr Logic from Viz, "well actually, I think you'll find..." Didn't work then and isn't working now, we've learned nothing about propaganda in the intermediate four years.
Our little Dougie here has been relatively reasonable and rational compared to many, but when asked about his reasoning for wanting leave he immediately listed things he didn't like. Only when we prompted him directly did he think to come up with two positives (which were actually negatives anyway, but y'know).
And it rather begs the question, which of those two ideologies do you want to get in bed with?
The left are fighting to save what they love.
The right are fighting to destroy what they hate.
Don’t agree. I’m of the left, and know people of the right who absolutely are fighting to save what they love. I’ve met people of the left who are driven by hate to want to destroy.
And there many different reasons for backing the winning side in 2016, and to still think it’s a good idea. Most have been, and will be, quietly forgotten by the Vote Leave team now that Brexit is done, and they’re embedded in no10 for the next few years at least. The amazing thing is how many people still haven’t seen that yet, as it was obvious and inevitable to many of us. I was angry towards people who took the bait in 2016 for quite sometime… now the bait and switch is almost complete, I feel sorry for those who still harbour hope that they’ll get anything they were promised back then… they’ll be getting nothing positive out of this, just like the rest of us.
The left are fighting to save what they love.
The right are fighting to destroy what they hate.
Utter BS.
Don’t agree. I’m of the left, and know people of the right who absolutely are fighting to save what they love. I’ve met people of the left who are driven by hate to want to destroy.
+1.
Left or Right… and people of both persuasions took the bait… Brexit is a con job.
Utter BS.
It's hard to counter such a robust and comprehensive argument.
I’m of the left, and know people of the right who absolutely are fighting to save what they love.
Can you give an example of what you mean?
And there many different reasons for backing the winning side in 2016,
Yes there were.
and to still think it’s a good idea.
No there isn't. Or at least, yes, there are many reasons to think it's still a good idea, but none that hold any water beyond propaganda and rhetoric. Unless as Dougie suggested you believe that being able to opt out of humanitarian aid is a net positive. That's the same line of thinking that believes immigrants and asylum seekers are the same thing.
Price worth paying?
Don’t agree. I’m of the left, and know people of the right who absolutely are fighting to save what they love. I’ve met people of the left who are driven by hate to want to destroy.
there are plenty of Thoroughly decent (now-former) Tory people like Dominic Grieve and Michael Heseltine who are clearly appalled by what their Brexiteer party has become and clearly despise Johnson and Cummings for what they’ve done.
If you want to hear absolutely mental, there are two older blokes who drink in my local who are full on far left Corbyn/Bennites and listening to them talking about the EU you’d think you were talking to Nigel Farage. FFS, just look at Corbyn! Ambiguous, at best, about the most far right project this country has ever seen. He certainly happily enabled it.
This is a project initiated by the far right, but it’s been hijacked by people even more sinister than them. People like Cummings and Johnson who are essentially nihilists who have no greater goal than their own acquisition of more power and money. They’ve corralled the most unpleasant aspects of the Tory party, of which there are many, to deliver their result
Some campaign messages born out of fighting for what you love, yesterday.
And many, many, many more.
Hey, I don’t approve of anything the Vote Leave people used to win the referendum, and to push for a harder and harder Brexit (and install their people into no10) since… and Leave.EU were even worse, as your images remind us. And Brexit is and has always been a con. What was your point exactly Cougar?
My point is that none of those posters were about the great things we can do when we leave, they were about the bad things (allegedly) because we were in. Stoking fears, getting people riled up.
There were much, much worse which were sent out via targeted advertising that the vast majority of remain-leaning people never saw (so couldn't object to them). I've got a copy of a couple on one of the machines here but I'll have to hunt for them and get back to you.
And all people who either are ‘of the right’, or voted Leave (these are different things don’t forget) supported either or both of those two despicable campaign teams and their horrible negative messaging? The fact that there were people on the right fighting against them, and people of the left voting with them, suggests you are oversimplifying and generalising.
I’ve got a copy of a couple on one of the machines here but I’ll have to hunt for them and get back to you.
No need. I’ve seen many of them. Polar bears, bullfighting and the banning of cups of tea included.
