Someone has to be telling Starmer pretending Brexit is a good idea is a vote winner. Or he believes it himself.
He's a very intelligent bloke, he cannot possibly believe in Brexit itself. 🙄
I think it's more that he doesn't want to write the Tory's Red Wall attack ads for them.
I think it’s more that he doesn’t want to write the Tory’s Red Wall attack ads for them.
Ergo - a vote winner on balance.
As I've said, if this is some kind of well thought out plan, then fine. No skin off my nose.
As I’ve said, if this is some kind of well thought out plan, then fine.
The plan seems to be the "who else will they vote for" approach. An odd tactic given the constituency he is trying to regain but hey ho.
“Look, it’s not that you were too stupid to understand that Brexit was a bad idea. It’s that you were too gullible…”
Ermmm no. Its rather telling both you and Del come up with amazingly patronising views of voters.
Now you might think people are too stupid and gullible to notice that we are doing rather badly now and it cant all be blamed on covid and Ukraine but I have a bit more faith in people.
It won’t be winning my vote
Then the alternative is the Tories. Every vote in England that doesn't go to Labour is essentially a vote for the Tories, that's our electoral system. I will be voting Labour despite the EU/Brexit shit that they come out with because the chances of poorer folks lives becoming better is greater under Labour than it is under Tories, it's not going to be the socially democratic govt of my dreams, but it may just manage to put a few quid back in the pockets of the folks who need it most, it may manage to settle strikes so that the railways run a bit better, and the nurses are more content, it'll fund councils and the NHS better. Right now after all this time under the Tories, that'll ****ing do me.
The next Labour govt is not going to take us back into the EU, that ship will not sail, that duck is dead in the water. There's so much more that needs to happen first beforehand. One has to, for the time being; accept that basic principle of UK politics as it stands at 2023 is that we are out of the EU. The fact that according to one poll there may be a small electoral gain overall, and a small loss in some seats that voted for it before is not going to make a difference to the Labour strategy. Unless re-joining the EU becomes the stated policy of both political parties and the overwhelming (like 75-25) of people and there are protests and rallies in the streets. If this Labour govt pave the way fro some sort of deal with CU or single market or even some limited form of free movement for tourists, and get it through parliament that in my eyes; would be a massive- huge- win.
^^^
I fully accept all that.
But I still can't vote for a supposedly grown up party, with a supposedly intelligent leader who feels he has to debase himself by pretending that a gargantuan error/cockup isn't one.
Sorry and all that, but here we are.
So you'd better brand me a Tory now for my pro-rejoin stance - if that one will survive the irony filter. 🤷♂️
Its rather telling both you and Del come up with amazingly patronising views of voters.
The problem with your proposals isn't with the voters. No-one has said it would be. I think it's rather telling that you and TJ both seem to think it be good politics for the Labour Party to be condescending and dishonest by telling voters they made the wrong decision and Labour will fix it (whatever the reason), and that it's all the Tories' fault.
Thats more honest than the current position. You know - treat the electorate as adults and tell the truth.
the chances of poorer folks lives becoming better is greater under Labour than it is under Tories
If "poorer folks" want to spitefully and vindictively **** up my life, and also incidentally their own lives, for no purpose other than to make themselves feel better while they wave their pathetic flags, then they will have to make do without my vote. And if the Tories end up taxing me less as a result, well that's not my choice and it's not an electoral system that I support, but once again moves to change that a few years ago were blocked by mindless ****s so I'm not going to lose any sleep over any supposed blame or guilt.
And if you think 4 years of Labour peddling the same nonsense is really going to help much, you need to give your head a wobble. They will surely be better in some ways, but the economy needs more than faith-based policy making.
I think it’s rather telling that you and TJ both seem to think it be good politics for the Labour Party to be condescending and dishonest by telling voters they made the wrong decision
The only way this makes sense if you are a brexiteer true believer.
It is not dishonest to point out that voting brexit was the wrong decision and its not condescending either. If you look at what was being promised vs what was delivered for brexit it is pretty reasonable to assume that people didnt get what they thought they were getting.
What is condescending and dishonest is sticking the head in the sand and pretending actions dont have consequences.
As for telling voters they made the wrong decision. They do that every single election. I can walk downstairs now and see at least two examples of it in the recycling bin.
No, @dissonance, you just don't understand. The Brexit ref was the One True Democracy, no prior or subsequent vote can ever disagree with it or change the outcome. No-one can change their mind. Any attempt to change anyone's mind is Undermining the One True Democracy and anyone involved in this is a Traitor.
Don't complain at me, I don't make the rules.
but the economy needs more than faith-based policy making.
I absolutely agree, do you think that the overall settlement for most folks will be better or worse under Labour or the Tories? Or the chances of a country that's more distributive, fairer and has better social services, healthcare and infrastructure than before. That's your choice. Politics is mostly faith and compromise.
It is not dishonest to point out that voting brexit was the wrong decision and its not condescending either.
I agree, I don't think Starmer is the right person to tell voters that, in that same way that Corbyn could never resonate with those same voters, it just doesn't sound real. Until Labour have a leader (of either the middle or further left, it doesn't matter) that can communicate with former Brexit voters that they need (for whatever reason) to change their minds Labour should go nowhere near it.
a country that’s more distributive, fairer and has better social services, healthcare and infrastructure than before
That's part of it, but I'm not a saint and part of it is also what is in it for me? I'm not going to support people who spitefully and vindictively set out to harm me just out of the goodness of my heart.
And don't pretend they didn't, I was actually out knocking on doors at the last election, manning street stalls, and I got that in spades from bitter angry hostile voters who actively wanted to cause harm (but only to others, they didn't think they would suffer, oh no).
Give me a quid pro quo I can support, and I'll gladly do so. More belief in the Good Brexit based on waving the flag even harder (but without any sort of alignment or moving closer to the EU, ie without anything that will actually plausibly make it better) doesn't do it for me.
With democracy comes responsibility, and I won't shed too many tears about people who voted for this shitshow suffering the consequences. Those who didn't, of course that's a shame. If and when there are enough of us prepared to do something about it we can set it right.
That’s part of it, but I’m not a saint and part of it is also what is in it for me?
working NHS, working trains. Councils that provide more than just statutory provisions?
I was actually out knocking on doors at the last election, manning street stalls, and I got that in spades from bitter angry hostile voters who actively wanted to cause harm
Yep, me too, and I got the same. There has to be an acceptance that governments of both colours have let huge parts of the country stall. Huge parts of the country haven't seen their wages increase or their prospects get any better for themselves or their children in decades, and both Labour and the Tories have to shoulder that responsibility. If you didn't expect that folks wouldn't take their chance to express a giant "pox on all your houses" when offered the opportunity, then one of the most salutary lessons to the political classes from the electorate would've been all for naught. Don't blame the folks who were lied to about Brexit, blame the people who told them lies about it, and the EU has been the handy whipping boy for both Labour and the Tories to hide from the electorate decisions that they took.
Huge parts of the country haven’t seen their wages increase or their prospects get any better for themselves or their children in decades
I want to see data for that. I don't believe it's true. It's certainly not remotely close to being true for a large majority of the population.
The stall - indeed drop - in living standards has been very specifically and clearly since about 2010. You can blame some of it on the global financial crisis of 2008ish if you want, and blame Labour in turn for that if you are desperate to say "a pox on both their houses". But even that doesn't negate what happened prior to 2008, and I think any reasonable analysis would in fact say a large part of the blame for what happened since is very specifically and fairly placed on the Tories for the post-2010 austerity policy.
The simple fact is that when people vote en masse to harm themselves there isn't really much I can do about it. But I can at least refuse to aid and abet it.
You know – treat the electorate as adults
Hahaha lol.
Maybe they can start acting like adults first.
Don’t blame the folks who were lied to about Brexit, blame the people who told them lies about it, and the EU has been the handy whipping boy for both Labour and the Tories to hide from the electorate decisions that they took.
Very much so. Now we haven't got the EU to blame people are being encouraged to point the finger at folk on small boats
Don’t blame the folks who were lied to about Brexit, blame the people who told them lies about it
Which means both the current Tory and Labour parties as they both continue to lie about it. It isn't "making brexit work" it is "limiting the damage of brexit" - for one example.
Back to square one. If you have disdain for the parties who lie about Brexit, you can't vote Labour or Tory. 🤷♂️
I want to see data for that.
Y'know, @thecaptain a while back I would've scoured google to back it up, but these days, not so much. I've set out my reasons why I'm voting Labour at the next election and my own view as to the reasons about Brexit, I'm not really interested (as I'm sure you're not remotely interested in me trying) to change anyone's mind on a forum. We've all of us got to come to our own decisions about what we think is the best way forward, and be more accepting of other's reasoning.
You could just admit it isn't true.
My "scouring google" took about 30s to show that the *median* (I know...) had seen huge real wage growth up to about 2008-2010.
Now it's possible there is a small minority right at the bottom of the distribution who hadn't seen any growth, but it's inconceivable that it's any more than a small minority.
You could just admit it isn’t true.
Oh I think I could find the stats about places like Lincolnshire or Humberside that have both mean salaries that are lower than the UK average and who's votes for Brexit were on average larger than the UK as a whole, but it doesn't really matter and won't make any difference to how you or I intend to vote next year.
The claim you made was that huge parts of the country hadn't seen wage growth for decades, not that some areas were poorer than average.
cool. you win.
My “scouring google” took about 30s to show that the *median* (I know…) had seen huge real wage growth up to about 2008-2010.
Not sure it should be counted as huge
It is not dishonest to point out that voting brexit was the wrong decision and its not condescending either.
You omitted the end of my sentence and changed the meaning. It is dishonest to blame the Tories for the whole Brexit mess, and it is bad politics to lead with a campaign that wants to relitigate Brexit. Labour comprehensively screwed the pooch on Brexit. It lost the internal debate, given the Corbynite delusion about a socialist Brexit. It then lost the culture war. It then managed to be "lose the vote" (despite being on both sides!), get equally blamed by Remainers, and get no credit from Brexiteers! Brexit was Labour's greatest disaster since WW2.
Listen, we all want to say "I told you so", and to make Brexiteers undo their stupid votes. But encouraging Labour to reopen Brexit at this point is like asking them to reopen the coal mines. It's terrible politics. Brexit is the one thing the Tories have "achieved" in the last ten years. It's still very popular in some circles. Why choose to fight on the issue that is Labour's weakest point and the Tories' strongest point among their supporters?
Re-entering the EU will take years and years, snd they're not in the mood to hear more bullshit from Chaos Island. The unsatisfying and sensible thing to do is stabilise this shambles we are in at the moment, align on trade and regulation, and then make a case for sensible re-entry.
Perhaps some of those issues were though?
We did this to death in 2016.
Whatever issues there were / are, leaving the EU was never going to solve them. It was a scapegoat.
A grown-up government would have analysed the poll results, concluded "people have concerns, let's see how we can best address those." But, well...
Now you might think people are too stupid and gullible to notice that we are doing rather badly now and it cant all be blamed on covid and Ukraine but I have a bit more faith in people.
I admire your optimism, but history has demonstrated time and again that your faith is misplaced.
Then the alternative is the Tories. Every vote in England that doesn’t go to Labour is essentially a vote for the Tories, that’s our electoral system.
Not quite. The alternative vote is whoever stands the greatest chance of defeating the Tories in your local constituency. That's probably but not necessarily Labour. If I thought it'd help in taking a seat from the Tories I'd vote UKIP.
It is dishonest to blame the Tories for the whole Brexit mess
True.
It was also the fault of Russia, tabloid media, Aaron Banks' Leave.EU and associated "bad boys," and the useful gullible both within the electorate and the Tory cabinet itself.
...and the Lexit lobby of the Labour Party that campaigned for Brexit, and the 30% of Labour voters that voted Leave.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48039984.amp
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_Leave
I find it quite difficult to care about the opinions of parties not in power because they, erm, aren't in power.
Back on the previous Brexit thread when every third post was Binners spitting vitriol about Magic Grandad I couldn't help but think "so what?" What an opposition party should be doing is opposing and I'm 100% in agreement with him on that point, Labour have been Tory Lite for some time now because yay populist politics. They haven't just dropped the ball but are busy tunnelling to New Zealand with it. But beyond that though... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I'm also finding it quite difficult to care about the referendum any more. It was 2016, that was (are you sitting down?) seven years ago. It's as relevant today as Milliband not challenging the Tories over tuition fees. They won we lost get over it.
Politics doesn't just have a vote and then stop. Or as someone cleverer than me once said, a democracy that cannot change its mind ceases to be a democracy.
align on trade and regulation
Labour has ruled out any alignment.
I agree that if they were to promise in their manifesto to increase alignment, that would be useful and I'd quite probably be able to support it. I don't expect them to promise an immediate rejoining. I do demand (at an absolute minimum) that a vote for them cannot be interpreted as support for a hard Brexit. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
I will wait to see what they actually put in their manifesto before making any final decision. Starmer has already abandoned almost all of his pledges when he was campaigning for the leadership, so he might u-turn an odd number of times between now and the election. Currently he's headed in the wrong direction.
Labour has ruled out any alignment.
Citation?
No single market, no customs union, no freedom of movement = no aligmnent withthe EU
He said it more specifically and recently on a podcast, think it was an interview on the News Agents. Not just something far-field about the SM, but about alignment in general.
Citation?
"We will not be joining the single market. We will not be joining a customs union."
Kier Starmer, Monday 4 July 2022 / 7:30 PM
https://labour.org.uk/press/keir-starmer-sets-out-labours-5-point-plan-to-make-brexit-work/
Theres also this...
https://labour.org.uk/stronger-together/
We proved that we’re stronger together. Labour wants to harness that spirit to start building a fairer, greener future for everyone in Britain.
He's just a talking head with no policy, just scratting around for populist votes, via trite & contradictory sound bytes...
In this respect he's a lot more closely alligned to Boris Johnson than he might care to admit.
So @cougar
I’m also finding it quite difficult to care about the referendum any more. It was 2016, that was (are you sitting down?) seven years ago.
Politics doesn’t just have a vote and then stop. Or as someone cleverer than me once said, a democracy that cannot change its mind ceases to be a democracy....
... They won we lost get over it.
All in one post too, impressive! so What is it? 😉
No single market, no customs union, no freedom of movement = no aligmnent withthe EU
I don't think that's the case. There's more to "alignment" than being in the SM/CU, surely this is obvious?
All in one post too, impressive! so What is it? 😉
A white hole?
I don’t think that’s the case. There’s more to “alignment” than being in the SM/CU, surely this is obvious?
Nothing of any significance that will make any real difference. Regulatory alignment diminishes one small barrier to trade while allowing all the rest to remain
What else could he do? its just gaslighting by now. What else will make a significant difference now he has ruled out on multiple occasions the basic preconditions for any meaningful arrangement?
So what else do you think he will do that will actually make a concrete difference?
We did this to death in 2016.
Whatever issues there were / are, leaving the EU was never going to solve them. It was a scapegoat.
Sorry, but I don't think it's black/white on a number of things. Leaving the EU removed FoM, even though it didn't have to. So if you worked a trade, for example, you could expect to see less competition for work. If you are a banker, you're expecting to see more financial deregulation. If you were a UK manufacturer competing against cheaper imports, your position has improved.
There was an example on the HoL report which struck me, something like an 80% drop in school trips to the EU. To me, that's an awful impact. But logically, you'd expect a significant increase in school trips inside the UK. And there are a LOT of people who would see that shift as a positive thing.
So what else do you think he will do that will actually make a concrete difference?
Well the first 6 years post vote were antagonistic political showboating, pretending that we didn't really need the EU at all. Perhaps a less combative approach would help?
So what else do you think he will do that will actually make a concrete difference?
I'm not an international trade expert. Maybe find one in Twitter.
When (if?) Labour get back in to office then the post Brexit conversation can begin. Up until then, it's just a humongous but invisible elephant in the room.
I blame Corbyn anyhow. He walked down the steps of a bus (ironic eh?) waving a piece of paper like a tramp version af Neville Chamberalin and said ; "I've had a think about it and on ballance, I think we're probably better off in than out".
Liar. As someone above mentioned, he was secretly dreaming of a pie-in-the-sky socialist Brexit and sold us all down the river.
With pro EU Cameron not campaigning because he 'was a good egg' and wanted to stay above the fray and Corbyn p**sing on our backs and telling is it's raining, Remain was left with no one to front the campaign.
I hate Corbyn. I blame him even more than Cameron. If Cornyn had been honest and told us the truth, that he was pro Brexit, then Remain would have won.
And did I say I hate Corbyn?
