Got to love the BBC's attempt at an explainer for what happens next for your holidays abroad. Every single answer is "Between now and December 31st nothing changes. After December nobody knows yet."
Yeah, they know what they voted for.
No fireworks or celebrations that I'm aware of up here in Shetland and no one I know here is a leaver.
Obviously we'll be getting an MRI scanner facility delivered on Monday with our new found wealth to save the community continuing to fundraise for it. We will won't we? 🤔
Original thread (EU Referendum – are you in or out?) locked on page 1929, how strangely appropriate.
Sorry, I'm going to need a bit of help with that one.
The difference, of course, is that the Boaty McBoatface vote was trivial enough to be dismissed, but then-Prime Minister David Cameron had held the Brexit referendum in order to resolve an internecine conflict within his own party, which made that act of voting for the joke option significant enough to trigger a constitutional crisis.
There's probably some mileage in - did Simon Cowell kill democracy? Vote now, vote for everything and everywhere.
The “where’s my elephant?” theory takes it name, of course, from The Simpsons episode in which Bart gets an elephant
The Monorail one is always a good one for explaining how populism takes hold.
What was wrong with Molly’s thread?
🤷♂️ been mentioned before but gets ignored
According to my dad, there are two major theories of history. The first, the “conspiracy theory,” holds that there exists a shadowy elite behind all the various outrages which constitute the whole grim story of mankind, deliberately manufacturing evil to suit their nefarious designs. The advantage of subscribing to the conspiracy theory is that if you were to find some way of unraveling the conspiracy, you would be able to make everything all better.
But the second theory, which my dad personally would always say he subscribed to, is the “cock-up theory,” holds that all the bad things that happen are essentially just mistakes: that it is human to err and so, ultimately, nothing can ever really improve. Incremental gains, sure, can sometimes be made, but someone is always bound to cock things up again.
My dad tended to raise the cock-up theory against my naïve attempts at teenage dinner-table Marxism, since he assumed that any sort of central state intervention — under which he included any attempt to make things better for people using politics — was likely to result in more cock-ups. So I guess the distinction between these two folk historiographies has always bugged me.
Which is why I’m going to sketch a third one. Call this the “where’s my elephant?” theory of history (I got this phrase from someone who follows me on twitter who goes by “JamesFerraroFan”).
The “where’s my elephant?” theory takes it name, of course, from The Simpsons episode in which Bart gets an elephant (Season 5, episode 17, to be precise). For those of you who don’t know the episode: Bart wins a radio contest where you have to answer a phone call with the phrase, “KBBL is going to give me something stupid.” That “something stupid” turns out to be either $10,000, or “the gag prize”: a full-grown African elephant. Much to the presenters’ surprise, Bart chooses the elephant — which is a problem for the radio station, since they don’t actually have an elephant to give him. After some attempts at negotiation (the presenters offer Principal Skinner $10,000 to go about with his pants pulled down for the rest of the school year; the presenters offer to use the $10,000 to turn Skinner into “some sort of lobster-like creature”), Bart finds himself kicked out of the radio station, screaming “where’s my elephant?”
The story is picked up by the news (Kent Brockman: “Isn’t that what we’re all asking in our own lives? Where’s my elephant? I know that’s what I’ve been asking.”), which leads to the presenters being threatened with the loss of their jobs, which leads to them to obtain the elephant for Bart. Bart has won his joke prize, but now he must deal with the joke’s consequences. Predictably, the elephant proves impossible for the Simpson family to keep — it costs them a huge amount of money and does a significant amount of damage to local real estate. In the end, they give the elephant away to an animal sanctuary. A few seasons later (in the episode in which the Simpson family hosts Apu’s wedding in their back garden), Bart is barely able to remember that he even had an elephant at all.
In short then, the “where’s my elephant?” theory holds the following:
1) If you give someone a joke option, they will take it.
2) The joke option is a (usually) a joke option for a reason, and choosing it will cause everyone a lot of problems.
3) In time, the joke will stop being funny, and people will just sort of lose interest in it.
4) No one ever learns anything.
So what evidence is there that the question “where’s my elephant?” has somehow been in the background throughout the history of our species, the driving force behind all human events?
Well, here’s one somewhat news-relevant example: On Friday, the UK will officially leave the European Union. In a sense, this event will conclude the almost four years of political turmoil that have raged in my home country following the June 2016 Brexit referendum. But of course “in a sense” is doing quite a bit of heavy lifting here. In truth, the agreement to withdraw passed by Boris Johnson’s government only really settles a few formalities about what will happen the day the UK ceases to be an EU member state, with much of Britain’s future relationship with Europe still to be agreed upon (questions of how trade will work, how the borders will work, etc.). Given the difficulties still to come, it is no surprise that the conservative Tory party — which most recently campaigned on a platform of pretty well ending Brexit, and indeed politics in general, forever — have moved to ban the word “Brexit” after January 31. Brexit will remain with us — and yet, even as it continues to happen, it will be forced into feeling like a distant memory, the after-image of some unpleasantness we no longer wish even to understand.
And perhaps it was the same with Boaty McBoatface. In hindsight, everyone should have always known that people were going to vote for Brexit — because a few months before the referendum, a poll to name a new vessel owned by the British National Environment Research Council was topped, following a social media campaign, by the suggestion “Boaty McBoatface”. In the end though, the public were denied the opportunity to call a research vessel something manifestly very silly, with the then-Science Minister Jo Johnson (Boris’s centrist, anti-Brexit brother) intervening to ensure that the boat would be called “RRS Sir David Attenborough.” “Boaty McBoatface” still became the name of something — but only one of Attenborough’s remote-controlled submersibles. As with Brexit, the Boaty McBoatface poll saw the public voting en masse for the joke option, the option no-one ever expected them to choose — in part, one suspects, simply because the people in charge had not thought to plan for what would happen if they did so.
The difference, of course, is that the Boaty McBoatface vote was trivial enough to be dismissed, but then-Prime Minister David Cameron had held the Brexit referendum in order to resolve an internecine conflict within his own party, which made that act of voting for the joke option significant enough to trigger a constitutional crisis.
Just contributing my bit to the Loony Thread part 2.
I have cut & pasted what has been added on page one in true echo chamber tradition of the pre-Brexit Loony Thread.
A land in which moderators did what you all agreed you wanted to do in the previous 2000-page thread
I'm afraid I'd stopped reading that hate speech outlet, an explanation for those of us who could no longer face reading it would have helped.I'll post here what I said on that one
More money into hating each other, nowhere near enough of that going on.
We have this appalling situation now where it seems many of those who wanted to leave think that everything will magically happen without them doing anything and can see no downsides and those who wanted to remain who seem actively to want disaster because being right is all that matters.
It looks hopeless but I don’t think it is. If we can look at one thing from recent history that gives hope to mankind it’s the Truth and Reconciliation program from South Africa. I can think of little in my 54 years on the planet to equal it. Sure South Africa did and still has it’s issues but it could have been so much worse but for the bravery and magnanimity of people on both sides of what seemed an insurmountable divide. So I’d like to see money put into that. I’ve always been a remainer but I am really disturbed by some of the hate directed at those who think differently from me. If the hate continues we will all lose.
As Auden said, before changing it because it seemed illogical “We must love each other or die”
Spend the money on love, people on here have very different views but I know those wouldn’t matter one bit if someone needed help. Just look at the support this place gives to anyone who needs it. If you end up doing well out of Brexit then share your good fortune with those who will undoubtedly suffer.
And apologies for the touchy feely crap if it offends you I’ve been on the port and it has the habit of bringing out the person I’d like to be.
Hmmm how’s the independence going 🙂
Mooman...that was posted on p1
Mooman was trying to be ironic or something
Anything to avoid scrutiny of the Brexit shitshow we have to look forward to for the next decade of divisive & poisonous debate on the much tougher & more complex future relationship
I'm sure the air is sweeter this morning.
My energy is cheaper, my salary is going up, and them kippers at breakfast are only from UK waters and a UK boat.
Oh.
Wait.
🦄
I have been baiting remainers on facebook including on the various official pages. It great fun if somewhat petty pointing out Johnson used to be in favour of the EU and that he is an outright racist.
Eh?
Mooman was trying to be ironic or something
On yeah. I forgot it was him.
Today starts the countdown to Brexit Realisation Day on Jan 1st 2021,
Brexit voters and Nigel may have won the battle, but the war is not over, not by a long shot.
I suspect it really is.
I think for the vast majority of the population (no matter how it affects them behind the scenes) Brexit is over now. It will become an increasingly boring and small story on the news and no matter what happens at the end of the transition period, no matter how bad the deal is, no matter what lies may or may not be told, most people will shrug their shoulders and not give a sh1t.
The only thing to look forward to as far as I can see, is when people start saying "but no one voted for this", I can laugh and say - "yes they did, they literally did, twice"
31/01/2020 - or as it should be known surrender day, when Britain finally accepted it wasn’t big enough to hold its own in a club made up of international heavyweight countries.
Never mind, we’ll be rejoining in a bit.
I think the argument that the Elephant will be slowly forgotten has some merit. Those clambering for it don’t really know why they want it, so won’t really be looking for what happens because of it.
Anyway… this loser sums it up perfectly for me…
https://twitter.com/jessphillips/status/1223529587625381888?s=21
If you want to have a little giggle out of all of this have a listen to the first 3 minutes of Graham Norton's Radio 2 show from today. The choice of opening words (all 3 of them) and his opening song choice is genius 😁
yes had a wee chuckle to myself whilst pottering in kitchen.
unless Boris goes back on his word (again) and extends the transition period
As with so many things with this whole sorry saga, the worst has happened because successive politicians painted themselves into a corner. Theresa May did it from the off, and in doing so left herself with no wiggle room to negotiate, as she had to satisfy the hardliners whose rhetoric she'd shamelesslessly pandered too to keep herself in power
Boris, with his bluster and bravado, has just done exactly the same. Don't forget... his paymasters have no fear of a no deal Brexit. They'll do fine out of that. I can't see anything other than that at the end of the year. Any successful negotiations will involve compromise, but Boris is still going with his ridiculous'cake and eat it' narrative. This won't survive contact with the real world, when the reality of just how weak our position is becomes glaringly apparent once the real negotiations start.
At that point calm compromise would be the wise thing to do. But the flag-waving no surrender narrative they've already written means this is impossible.
So a no deal crash out is the only option. Its inevitable. Always was. We merely put it off for a bit. Because the vision they peddled is simply undeliverable.
Look how happy the winners are:
https://twitter.com/itvnews/status/1223368660217212928?s=21
Who’d be a journalist (a real one) in this decade?
Looks like Mr Cummmings is finally having the realisation that Johnson and Gove had the morning after the referendum...
Shit just got real
The good news is the extra £50 million a day the NHS is going to get.
Boris promised.
Oh....
We don’t have any laws in Britain apparently: https://twitter.com/changed_gear/status/1223532581989371904?s=21
And our laws come from Germany:
https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1223518314913259520?s=21
Nobeer - stupidity on my behalf I have been baiting brexiteers!
Sorry, I’m going to need a bit of help with that one.
A lot of people lost a lot of money in a world recession that only stopped after we had killed an awful lot of people.
If you want to have a little giggle out of all of this have a listen to the first 3 minutes of Graham Norton’s Radio 2 show from today. The choice of opening words (all 3 of them) and his opening song choice is genius 😁
Brilliant. 😀
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Much like my feelings about the wonderful northern working class following the election, I’m done with trying to understand or empathise with them. They can all go and **** themselves.
However tempting it is to feel that way, the whole point of this has been to create lasting division. We're talking about people who've been highly politicised, but who have absolutely no idea why they're angry.
Not all of us northern denizens voted leave... Or for the tories either! 🙂
What was wrong with Molly’s thread?
been mentioned before but gets ignored
Page 1
A land in which moderators did what you all agreed you wanted to do in the previous 2000-page thread. I mean, I literally clock-watched to set this up despite spending half of this week in the hospital with bugger all sleep for the last two days.
I appreciate that ‘doing what you say you’re going to do’ is a bit of an alien concept in brexitworld, but still.
There’s probably a metaphor here, or something. I’m too tired to care, goodnight.
Nothing is keeping you here, so why not go & live in another country then?
Because Brexit has taken away our freedom of movement, I guess.
What was wrong with my thread? I asked people not to whinge on it - that was probably it 😉
I'm seeing a lot of highly divisive Scottish posts on my FB that are basically stuff the knuckle dragging rUK only we progressive Scots are true Europeans. Er.. hold on a minute...
Nothing is keeping you here
Ha! The standard kneejerk response of the misguided offended patriot. I was born here, unfortunately, and yes while the idea of leaving is very appealing (and not entirely beyond my resources), I have strong connections with friends and family which I wouldn't want to break, along with the usual reasons of the hassle of starting a new life somewhere else. I've never quite understood why people such as yourself get so offended when their fellow citizens declare a dislike for the government and culture in which they have to live.
Nothing is keeping you here, so why not go & live in another country then?
I have in the past, and I'd absolutely love to again (you have no idea), there are only two issues:
1) My ageing parents may need my support in the next decade or so, and
2) MY RIGHT TO FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT HAS JUST BEEN TAKEN AWAY
How stupid can you be to vote to severely restrict someone's ability to leave the country and then say 'why don't you leave the country?' Honestly, the brains of some people...
Not if he moves before the end of 2020 and applies for citizenship somewhere
A bit late Dazh, you have been telling us since the referendum that we as remoaners need to accept the result and move on.
What was wrong with Molly’s thread?
Nothing. I created this before I saw the other one was all, and as I said on the first page I was very tired.
Nothing is keeping you here, so why not go & live in another country then?
Great idea. Move to France, then get deported in 12 months because that's literally what you've voted for. Thought about this, haven't you.
Besides which - why should I? If leavers are so desperate not to live in a European country, why don't they bugger off to America or Australia or Russia or somewhere? Everyone's a winner.
Not if he moves before the end of 2020 and applies for citizenship somewhere
Which EU country allows you to apply for citizenship if you have only lived there for less than one year, and have no previous claim in citizenship? Genuine question. I’m ignoring options that require huge financial reserves.
we as remoaners need to accept the result and move on.
We do. We lost, but it doesn't stop me hating the ****ers even more, and the hatred levels are quite high right now. It'll probably pass, but it's going to take a while. The trouble is that being able to say 'I told you so' may feel good for a very short amount of time, but it's not something to celebrate.
TJ I'm not sure Hume would approve of you bating Brexiteers. A man who hated certainty (I'm sure he'd have a lot to say about Remainers), was ruthlessly skeptical but was renowned for his general good humour in how he conducted himself.
He is role model for how it's possible to attack ideas rather than individuals.
Brexit has happened. All we can try and do is shape where we go from here. The Nihilists who've given up or are sulking about it, it's just sad.
All these amazing ideas and chemes for new tax incentives, new industry, employment and social services. Terrific and all that, but where is the money coming from?
(the answer is of course a rise in taxes......)
The other big concern i have is over energy security. Leaving Europe reduced our "energy catchment area", as we try to move to renewables, and as our exsiting generation assets age (a lot of our baseload assets are already running well into "overtime" ie are running past their design life today), will we really be able to negate "amazing deals" for energy from our European neighbours.
Immagine the bargaining table conversation:
UK: We'd like to buy some of your electricity
Europe: OK, great, of course, it's £1 a kWh.
UK: WHOA THERE! what, £1? your're having a laugh!, we're oonly gonna pay 10 pence per kWh
Europe: Ok, bye. thanks for asking!
.
.
.
2 years later, and with the lights turning off across the UK
UK: Hey Europe, we've changed our mind, we'll pay that £1 now
Europe: Hah, no, it's £2 per kWh now........
The other big concern i have is over energy security.
We’re building the biggest gas power station in the world Europe at Drax to cope… that pro Brexit planet killer with no sense and no feelings for anyone but her self (Andrea Lothsome) signed it off, ignoring the advice of all experts in all areas that it shouldn’t go ahead.
TAKE BACK CONTROL
Edit: just read that there is a fresh legal challenge… but that kind check/balance on what the government can do to us (and the planet) is unlikely to be a barrier to this Leave government.
The question now is what else their 'victory' will usher in?
I always worry when I watch triumphalist right-wing nut-jobs in celebratory mood. Unfortunately those bell ends are very much in the ascendency, drunk on their own hubris.
I'll give it 3 months before they're waging an orchastrated campaign to bring back hanging, with the vocal support of many senior Tory MP's
