MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
Its pathetic. Stating brexit is a huge mistake and moving back to the EU is imperative would be a vote winner. Thats the worst bit of Starmers enthusiastic embrace of brexit.
He could and should have dumped all the blame on the tories,. Instead he has taken shares in it. Stupid, short sighted and a vote losing position
Stupid, short sighted and a vote losing position
That's clearly not what his strategy advisors are telling him, though.
And that is a reflection on us.
But it is what the polls are telling us. By taking this he is concentrating on the "red wall" even tho even there the polls show disavowing brexit would be a vote winner and his position is a huge vote loser in remain areas.
Well if that is the case then his advisors are wrong.
It's no concern of mine, I didn't vote for this nonsense, and I can't vote for anyone who won't call it out for what it is. 🤷♂️
Me too. I cannot vote for a brexiteer party which is what labour are.
I’ve a feeling it’s been pulled (see note at bottom) – or else I missed it in the article
Yeah. I read it in the actual paper edition, and I think she said 'just because some ****ers voted for Brexit'. Seems like that got her in trouble with her in-laws so she asked the Grauniad to cut it.
He could and should have dumped all the blame on the tories,.
This has the slight disadvantage of being completely dishonest. There was no good Brexit that Labour could have done better. Labour did not support either side - it allowed party members and elected reps to choose for themselves. The majority of the electorate voted for Brexit. Blaming Brexit all on the Tories is just rubbish.
...and rubbing the electorate's nose in it by saying "hey ****s you were wrong and we are going to un**** your stupid decision" isn't a votewinner. Even if it would be correct...
Me too. I cannot vote for a brexiteer party which is what labour are.
I'll remind you both again of Douglas Adams' "lizards" theory. Whatever you may think of Labour, it has to be better than the alternative.
SNP and Greens for me I have alternatives that are not brexiteers
and rubbing the electorate’s nose in it by saying “hey **** you were wrong and we are going to un**** your stupid decision” isn’t a votewinner. Even if it would be correct…
the polls say it is a vote winner even in the red wall seats.
By being an enthusiastic brexiteer Starmer is writing off large parts of the UK and it will cost him seats. The polls have been moving that way for a long time and will continue to do so - and would move more if he showed leadership on this issue
There was no good Brexit that Labour could have done better
NO brexit is the big one - and a less hard brexit would have been better.
But the labour / tory pact gave the tories 10 scottish seats that saved Mays government. that pact cost us so much.
vote labour get tory
You do know that a lot of traditional Labour voters voted for brexit. A definitive poll of my cycling group who usually voted labour voted to leave.
Starmer knows that too.
There is hard polling that makes it clear opposing brexit is a vote winner overall. Yes they would lose some votes but they would gain more - even in target and red wall seats.
No imagine if Starmer had spent the last year opposing brexit and leading public opinion - it would have been even greater positive towards rejoin
Starmer said he wanted to be a leader for all of the UK. His enthusiastic support for brexit and lying about it ( we can make brexit work) will cost him dear i Scotland and in remainer places in the south.
What does opposition to something that has happened and can’t easily be reversed look like? Opposition to the position we are now in as a result of Brexit makes sense… propose changing it. But a simple “we shouldn’t have left, or deary me”… what’s the point? No need to rub some people’s faces in the mess, just to make others feel vindicated in their “I told you so” positions. Every year more and more people will realise that Brexit was a mistake, they don’t need Labour telling them so but not offering a quick route back to a time and arrangements it won’t be in their power to return us to. We gave up control. Labour can’t simply get it back for us, they can only crack on with rebuilding relationships and improving agreements.
a lot of traditional Labour voters voted for brexit
Lots of traditional X voters voted for Brexit, for all X. Nevertheless, they are a dying breed (again, for all X). Both figuratively, in the sense of changing their minds (albeit slowly and partially), and literally, in the sense that they were largely towards the elderly end of the demographic and are dying out.
Remember, no-one at all under the age of 25 voted for Brexit (um..ok make that 24y and 10 months). Not a single one. By next June, you can make that no-one under 26.
Chasing a dying demographic seems a bit silly to me. There was possibly a case for it back in 2017-19 when Brexit hadn't turned out to be a complete bit of a mess. Sticking with it now just makes Labour leadership look clueless, backward-looking. They aren't offering anything to me.
That may be true, but taking a "screw the Brexiteers, they're all dying anyway" approach doesn't fix anything because younger voters don't bloody show up and vote! Brexiteer OAPs will be at the polling station at 7.01am...
https://www.britishelectionstudy.com/bes-findings/age-and-voting-behaviour-at-the-2019-general-election/#.ZE-MR6TTU0E
I also suspect that younger voters aren't as interested in rejoining the EU as much as "we" are, precisely because they've never known it and didn't take a position on Brexit. But I don't have stats for that.
Kelvin - they could pin the mess on the tories. Of course they could make strong moves back to the EU and make that policy. They could stop lying about it by pretending they can "make brexit work"
All of which would be vote winners and would spread labours appeal across the UK
for sure the SNP and lib Dems will make it an election issue and will gain votes and seats off the back of it.
Stop being a brexiteer apologist. the labour party position is not the only possible one.
Except the young represented the lowest turnout. Apathy doesn't decide elections.
I'm about to to meet my cycling group who are in their early 60s. They'll be around a while longer and sadly they'll be brexity as last week. They're not suffering with their final pensions and income from additional properties.
There is hard polling that makes it clear opposing brexit is a vote winner overall. Yes they would lose some votes but they would gain more – even in target and red wall seats.
No imagine if Starmer had spent the last year opposing brexit and leading public opinion – it would have been even greater positive towards rejoin
Starmer said he wanted to be a leader for all of the UK. His enthusiastic support for brexit and lying about it ( we can make brexit work) will cost him dear i Scotland and in remainer places in the south.
1) okay, let's see this "hard polling"
2) Brexit has happened (and it's a shitshow). You may as well oppose the Second World War or the metric system. The only sane thing to do would be aligning with the EU on trade and then proposing a route back to entry - which will take a decade at least, even if the EU feels at all acommodating to the UK. It will also be difficult and time-consuming.
Reigniting the historic culture war over Brexit that Labour spectacularly lost on would be a cosmic mistake (which tbf means there is a 50% chance Labour will do it). It would be like adopting a "coal not dole" platform.
3) specifically which are these down South remainer seats that Starmer is going to lose because he won't stand on an anti-Brexit platform?
Kelvin – they could pin the mess on the tories.
Labour can't blame Brexit on the Tories because half of Labour and a majority of voters were in favour of Brexit.
Labour can't blame bad Brexit on the Tories because, as you say and I agree, there is no such thing as good Brexit.
politecameraaction - read the article I linked to above for the polling
A majority of voters were not in favour of brexit - a majority of the voters that voted - a very different thing and that majority has clearly gone now - and the referendum was advisory only.
Labour can’t blame Brexit on the Tories because half of Labour and a majority of voters were in favour of Brexit.
More accurately a majority (just) of those that voted, it wasn't a majority of the total electorate.
I also suspect that younger voters aren’t as interested in rejoining the EU
Depends on your definition of younger. At 60 there's a large tranche of people younger than me who know exactly what the benefits of being in were.
Lib dem target seats
https://www.electionpolling.co.uk/battleground/targets/liberal-democrat
map those against the seats that voted remain or only very closely for leave
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_2016_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum
A whole swathe of seats where being brexiteers will lose them votes compared to a rejoin stance
Lib dem target seats
https://www.electionpolling.co.uk/battleground/targets/liberal-democrat
/blockquote>I want Lib Dems to take seats off the Tories. Growing the Labour vote in those seats is problem 100 behind 99 others for the Labour Party, and for the UK. And at this stage probably counter productive.
EDIT: If a few Labour seats go to the Lib Dems as well, I’ll just shrug. Arguably Labour have insulted the people of Sheff&Hal in recent years with the previous representative they gave them, and deserve to lose that seat.
I've given up debating on this and other politics threads because the STW (same three *******) just swamp discussion by volume and repeating over and over again. It makes this place frankly unpleasant, and you can't ignore them because they suck everyone else in and poison the debate for all
But the last time I disagreed with TJ on this was 6-8 weeks ago, and I was interested by that article and whether things have moved further. Maybe they have but it's still not clear cut, and I can't leave that unchallenged. If you go beyond the headlines in the Keegan article, and look at the actual poll
https://consoc.org.uk/publications/red-wall-polling-2023/
Among Red Wall voters:
Exactly half agree that Brexit has made Britain worse off
46% say Brexit was a mistake
On General Voting Intention, Labour has a lead of 33% over the Conservatives
This lead could shrink to 30% if Labour said Brexit was a mistake, but the Party would still win all 42 Red Wall seats.
So in the red wall seats, the election battleground, labour would lose votes by coming out for Brexit. But not by enough to sway the result. And indeed, it may increase votes in other seats, that they will already win or which LD are on to win, further increasing majority.
It might be cowardice but at present there isn't any chance for the Tories to mobilise on 'they don't respect the vote you made' 'antidemocratic', 'they want to reopen the debate and waste all that time and money again....' and when the benefit is winning 527 or 550 seats against a risk of ****ing it all up ..... does it matter?
Right, I'm out again.
I'm more concerned about what Labour will actually do if they win. If they spend 4 years pissing about "making brexit work" in the way they've talked about, the party will fall apart and we'll have another decade of Tory.
Fair enough jonv although there is a typo in there yo might want to correct 🙂
so coming out against brexit would lead to a bigger majority and overall be a vote winner at a time when polls are tightening and the election win does not look assured any more. the polls against brexit are only going one way
Remaining brexiteers and continuing to lie about it will lose them seats and of course as ever I am most concerned about Scotland. Starmer says he wants to win all over the UK. His pro brexit stance will not go down well here and means they will not make the gains he wants and is an easy weapon to use
Remember this is before the campaign. Lib Dems and SNP will ensure this is a significant point in the election.
I know several English ex labour voters who will not vote labour because of their embrace of brexit
A majority of voters were not in favour of brexit – a majority of the voters that voted – a very different thing
"Voters" are people that actually vote. I am not a marathon runner just because I could get off the couch and run a marathon.
Lib dem target seats
3 of the first 40 seats are Labour, and winning that 40th seat would require a 14% swing from Labour to Lib Dem against the backdrop of a Labour vs Tory national contest. It ain't gonna happen. The rest are Tory and a couple of SNP, Lib Dem and Green seats.
The idea that Labour is losing out in the south of the UK by not pursuing some intransigent rejectionist anti-Brexit platform is not plausible.
Fair enough jonv although there is a typo in there yo might want to correct 🙂
Have read and can't spot it.
intransigent rejectionist anti-Brexit platform
I don't understand how you can portray the idea to align and rejoin the SM and CU in such a manner. It smacks of trying desperately to set up a silly straw man to distract from the paucity of the argument.
The intransigence is surely the idiots pretending that Brexit can be made to "work" in any other way, despite the growing mountain of evidence to the contrary.
Jonv
labour would lose votes by coming out for Brexit.
I think you mean against 🙂
some intransigent rejectionist anti-Brexit platform is not plausible.
Errmm - yes it is. Its the enthusastic embrace of brexit and the telling of blatant lies about it which is not plausible and will cost labour votes and seats
for rejoin I meant, yes. Ta
It smacks of trying desperately to set up a silly straw man to distract from the paucity of the argument
I refer to you to TJ's post two after yours, and his others on this thread, where he is advocating that Starmer campaigns against Brexit and blames the Brexit mess on the Tories. That is an approach that is bizarre (Brexit has already happened), hypocritical (Labour and the electorate's fingerprints are all over the stupidity of Brexit too), and self-sabotaging (by picking a culture war with a significant chunk of the electorate - the same culture war that was lost a few years ago!).
There's also the possibility that by re-opening the can of Brexit worms that could hand the Tories a huge opportunity to attack Labour as the party that wants to drag us all through that endless crap a second time which itself could be a vote loser.
I suspect that's part of it. There's people who think it was a mistake, then there's people who want to start undoing the mistake now, and people who just want to move on despite the mistake because they dread the whole idea.
If I was in charge of Labour electoral campaign, I'd want more evidence that one poll in March is showing given that the strategy they're already following is doing all right.
The polls have being moving that way for many months.
its too late to change now tho really - but what a missed open goal.
Make the tories take all the blame and be ahead of and leading public opinion not being dragged in the direction the public are going reluctantly
Labours poll lead is because the tories are so awful not because of any great love for labours position.
Labour will regret this I am sure. Its such an obvious weapon for the lib dems and SNP
I think one of the issues is that her we have politicians prepared to say the truth on Brexit and it creates a positive feedback. If you don't have that it becomes less obvious. Brexit and the disaster it has caused is a common topic here
It comes back to the concept that you don't win arguments by telling people how stupid they are/have been. It's difficult to grasp I know.
But it works so well on here Del 😉
Personally I think there's a big difference between agreeing that Brexit was a mistake and voting for a party looking to take us back into the uncertainty that we had for 4 years. I'd probably be comfortable doing that but I can see that many others are looking for stability after the shite tsunami that has been Tory government.
Also disagree that nothing can be done to make Brexit less damaging than it has been to date. Using the bad divorce analogy, we can carry on being obtuse and using lawyers to sow discontent. Or we can work with the EU to improve our future relationship and make life better for our children.
It’s difficult to grasp I know.
Says the person going for the passive aggressive variant.
Its also, unsurprisingly, overly simplistic.
You dont have to call people stupid but point out how they were lied to and how the issues that they hoped were going to be addressed werent and never would have been.
However then of course you actually need to have some suggestions how to solve those issues.
Perhaps some of those issues were though?
but what a missed open goal.
It's not though, Labour can't take us back into the EU by itself, so they're just making undeliverable promises.
No but they could have pinned the tories with the blame and said the were going to move to the eu.
As well as not lying about making brexit work
you don’t win arguments by telling people how stupid they are/have been
Again with the rather childish straw men. It's almost like you don't want to engage with the substance of the discussion.
I'm sure the Labour advisors know what they're doing and pretending Brexit is a good idea is, on balance, a vote winner.
It won't be winning my vote, but I'm a drop in the ocean, apparently. It is what it is.
Thats not what the polls say
I value politician that tell the truth - or at least sound plausible
How about
"You were lied to about Brexit, dirty russian money was used to pump out propaganda, the far right wanted it for their own reasons, We are going to undo the damage it has caused as quickly as possible"
"BTW - here are examples of the damage"
And keep on hammering that line. make the tories own it
Ah leave it a few more years then rejoin SM @ CU and sell it as a Brexit win as we couldn't that whilst in the eu.
We've gone so far down the rabbit hole there's no point in using reason, its a whole new game for another generation of players.
Anyway people will soon forget the freedoms they had and you don't miss what you've not had, we may never have close ties, just got to get used to having to spend a few hours of your holiday going thru etias or get a decent holiday home with a golden visa now your part of a "high-wage, high-skill" economy.
Someone has to be telling Starmer pretending Brexit is a good idea is a vote winner. Or he believes it himself.
He's a very intelligent bloke, he cannot possibly believe in Brexit itself. 🙄
I think it's more that he doesn't want to write the Tory's Red Wall attack ads for them.
I think it’s more that he doesn’t want to write the Tory’s Red Wall attack ads for them.
Ergo - a vote winner on balance.
As I've said, if this is some kind of well thought out plan, then fine. No skin off my nose.
As I’ve said, if this is some kind of well thought out plan, then fine.
The plan seems to be the "who else will they vote for" approach. An odd tactic given the constituency he is trying to regain but hey ho.
“Look, it’s not that you were too stupid to understand that Brexit was a bad idea. It’s that you were too gullible…”
Ermmm no. Its rather telling both you and Del come up with amazingly patronising views of voters.
Now you might think people are too stupid and gullible to notice that we are doing rather badly now and it cant all be blamed on covid and Ukraine but I have a bit more faith in people.
It won’t be winning my vote
Then the alternative is the Tories. Every vote in England that doesn't go to Labour is essentially a vote for the Tories, that's our electoral system. I will be voting Labour despite the EU/Brexit shit that they come out with because the chances of poorer folks lives becoming better is greater under Labour than it is under Tories, it's not going to be the socially democratic govt of my dreams, but it may just manage to put a few quid back in the pockets of the folks who need it most, it may manage to settle strikes so that the railways run a bit better, and the nurses are more content, it'll fund councils and the NHS better. Right now after all this time under the Tories, that'll ****ing do me.
The next Labour govt is not going to take us back into the EU, that ship will not sail, that duck is dead in the water. There's so much more that needs to happen first beforehand. One has to, for the time being; accept that basic principle of UK politics as it stands at 2023 is that we are out of the EU. The fact that according to one poll there may be a small electoral gain overall, and a small loss in some seats that voted for it before is not going to make a difference to the Labour strategy. Unless re-joining the EU becomes the stated policy of both political parties and the overwhelming (like 75-25) of people and there are protests and rallies in the streets. If this Labour govt pave the way fro some sort of deal with CU or single market or even some limited form of free movement for tourists, and get it through parliament that in my eyes; would be a massive- huge- win.
^^^
I fully accept all that.
But I still can't vote for a supposedly grown up party, with a supposedly intelligent leader who feels he has to debase himself by pretending that a gargantuan error/cockup isn't one.
Sorry and all that, but here we are.
So you'd better brand me a Tory now for my pro-rejoin stance - if that one will survive the irony filter. 🤷♂️
Its rather telling both you and Del come up with amazingly patronising views of voters.
The problem with your proposals isn't with the voters. No-one has said it would be. I think it's rather telling that you and TJ both seem to think it be good politics for the Labour Party to be condescending and dishonest by telling voters they made the wrong decision and Labour will fix it (whatever the reason), and that it's all the Tories' fault.
Thats more honest than the current position. You know - treat the electorate as adults and tell the truth.
the chances of poorer folks lives becoming better is greater under Labour than it is under Tories
If "poorer folks" want to spitefully and vindictively **** up my life, and also incidentally their own lives, for no purpose other than to make themselves feel better while they wave their pathetic flags, then they will have to make do without my vote. And if the Tories end up taxing me less as a result, well that's not my choice and it's not an electoral system that I support, but once again moves to change that a few years ago were blocked by mindless ****s so I'm not going to lose any sleep over any supposed blame or guilt.
And if you think 4 years of Labour peddling the same nonsense is really going to help much, you need to give your head a wobble. They will surely be better in some ways, but the economy needs more than faith-based policy making.
I think it’s rather telling that you and TJ both seem to think it be good politics for the Labour Party to be condescending and dishonest by telling voters they made the wrong decision
The only way this makes sense if you are a brexiteer true believer.
It is not dishonest to point out that voting brexit was the wrong decision and its not condescending either. If you look at what was being promised vs what was delivered for brexit it is pretty reasonable to assume that people didnt get what they thought they were getting.
What is condescending and dishonest is sticking the head in the sand and pretending actions dont have consequences.
As for telling voters they made the wrong decision. They do that every single election. I can walk downstairs now and see at least two examples of it in the recycling bin.
No, @dissonance, you just don't understand. The Brexit ref was the One True Democracy, no prior or subsequent vote can ever disagree with it or change the outcome. No-one can change their mind. Any attempt to change anyone's mind is Undermining the One True Democracy and anyone involved in this is a Traitor.
Don't complain at me, I don't make the rules.
but the economy needs more than faith-based policy making.
I absolutely agree, do you think that the overall settlement for most folks will be better or worse under Labour or the Tories? Or the chances of a country that's more distributive, fairer and has better social services, healthcare and infrastructure than before. That's your choice. Politics is mostly faith and compromise.
It is not dishonest to point out that voting brexit was the wrong decision and its not condescending either.
I agree, I don't think Starmer is the right person to tell voters that, in that same way that Corbyn could never resonate with those same voters, it just doesn't sound real. Until Labour have a leader (of either the middle or further left, it doesn't matter) that can communicate with former Brexit voters that they need (for whatever reason) to change their minds Labour should go nowhere near it.
a country that’s more distributive, fairer and has better social services, healthcare and infrastructure than before
That's part of it, but I'm not a saint and part of it is also what is in it for me? I'm not going to support people who spitefully and vindictively set out to harm me just out of the goodness of my heart.
And don't pretend they didn't, I was actually out knocking on doors at the last election, manning street stalls, and I got that in spades from bitter angry hostile voters who actively wanted to cause harm (but only to others, they didn't think they would suffer, oh no).
Give me a quid pro quo I can support, and I'll gladly do so. More belief in the Good Brexit based on waving the flag even harder (but without any sort of alignment or moving closer to the EU, ie without anything that will actually plausibly make it better) doesn't do it for me.
With democracy comes responsibility, and I won't shed too many tears about people who voted for this shitshow suffering the consequences. Those who didn't, of course that's a shame. If and when there are enough of us prepared to do something about it we can set it right.
That’s part of it, but I’m not a saint and part of it is also what is in it for me?
working NHS, working trains. Councils that provide more than just statutory provisions?
I was actually out knocking on doors at the last election, manning street stalls, and I got that in spades from bitter angry hostile voters who actively wanted to cause harm
Yep, me too, and I got the same. There has to be an acceptance that governments of both colours have let huge parts of the country stall. Huge parts of the country haven't seen their wages increase or their prospects get any better for themselves or their children in decades, and both Labour and the Tories have to shoulder that responsibility. If you didn't expect that folks wouldn't take their chance to express a giant "pox on all your houses" when offered the opportunity, then one of the most salutary lessons to the political classes from the electorate would've been all for naught. Don't blame the folks who were lied to about Brexit, blame the people who told them lies about it, and the EU has been the handy whipping boy for both Labour and the Tories to hide from the electorate decisions that they took.
Huge parts of the country haven’t seen their wages increase or their prospects get any better for themselves or their children in decades
I want to see data for that. I don't believe it's true. It's certainly not remotely close to being true for a large majority of the population.
The stall - indeed drop - in living standards has been very specifically and clearly since about 2010. You can blame some of it on the global financial crisis of 2008ish if you want, and blame Labour in turn for that if you are desperate to say "a pox on both their houses". But even that doesn't negate what happened prior to 2008, and I think any reasonable analysis would in fact say a large part of the blame for what happened since is very specifically and fairly placed on the Tories for the post-2010 austerity policy.
The simple fact is that when people vote en masse to harm themselves there isn't really much I can do about it. But I can at least refuse to aid and abet it.
You know – treat the electorate as adults
Hahaha lol.
Maybe they can start acting like adults first.
Don’t blame the folks who were lied to about Brexit, blame the people who told them lies about it, and the EU has been the handy whipping boy for both Labour and the Tories to hide from the electorate decisions that they took.
Very much so. Now we haven't got the EU to blame people are being encouraged to point the finger at folk on small boats
Don’t blame the folks who were lied to about Brexit, blame the people who told them lies about it
Which means both the current Tory and Labour parties as they both continue to lie about it. It isn't "making brexit work" it is "limiting the damage of brexit" - for one example.
Back to square one. If you have disdain for the parties who lie about Brexit, you can't vote Labour or Tory. 🤷♂️
I want to see data for that.
Y'know, @thecaptain a while back I would've scoured google to back it up, but these days, not so much. I've set out my reasons why I'm voting Labour at the next election and my own view as to the reasons about Brexit, I'm not really interested (as I'm sure you're not remotely interested in me trying) to change anyone's mind on a forum. We've all of us got to come to our own decisions about what we think is the best way forward, and be more accepting of other's reasoning.
You could just admit it isn't true.
My "scouring google" took about 30s to show that the *median* (I know...) had seen huge real wage growth up to about 2008-2010.
Now it's possible there is a small minority right at the bottom of the distribution who hadn't seen any growth, but it's inconceivable that it's any more than a small minority.
You could just admit it isn’t true.
Oh I think I could find the stats about places like Lincolnshire or Humberside that have both mean salaries that are lower than the UK average and who's votes for Brexit were on average larger than the UK as a whole, but it doesn't really matter and won't make any difference to how you or I intend to vote next year.
The claim you made was that huge parts of the country hadn't seen wage growth for decades, not that some areas were poorer than average.
cool. you win.
My “scouring google” took about 30s to show that the *median* (I know…) had seen huge real wage growth up to about 2008-2010.
Not sure it should be counted as huge
It is not dishonest to point out that voting brexit was the wrong decision and its not condescending either.
You omitted the end of my sentence and changed the meaning. It is dishonest to blame the Tories for the whole Brexit mess, and it is bad politics to lead with a campaign that wants to relitigate Brexit. Labour comprehensively screwed the pooch on Brexit. It lost the internal debate, given the Corbynite delusion about a socialist Brexit. It then lost the culture war. It then managed to be "lose the vote" (despite being on both sides!), get equally blamed by Remainers, and get no credit from Brexiteers! Brexit was Labour's greatest disaster since WW2.
Listen, we all want to say "I told you so", and to make Brexiteers undo their stupid votes. But encouraging Labour to reopen Brexit at this point is like asking them to reopen the coal mines. It's terrible politics. Brexit is the one thing the Tories have "achieved" in the last ten years. It's still very popular in some circles. Why choose to fight on the issue that is Labour's weakest point and the Tories' strongest point among their supporters?
Re-entering the EU will take years and years, snd they're not in the mood to hear more bullshit from Chaos Island. The unsatisfying and sensible thing to do is stabilise this shambles we are in at the moment, align on trade and regulation, and then make a case for sensible re-entry.
Perhaps some of those issues were though?
We did this to death in 2016.
Whatever issues there were / are, leaving the EU was never going to solve them. It was a scapegoat.
A grown-up government would have analysed the poll results, concluded "people have concerns, let's see how we can best address those." But, well...
Now you might think people are too stupid and gullible to notice that we are doing rather badly now and it cant all be blamed on covid and Ukraine but I have a bit more faith in people.
I admire your optimism, but history has demonstrated time and again that your faith is misplaced.
Then the alternative is the Tories. Every vote in England that doesn’t go to Labour is essentially a vote for the Tories, that’s our electoral system.
Not quite. The alternative vote is whoever stands the greatest chance of defeating the Tories in your local constituency. That's probably but not necessarily Labour. If I thought it'd help in taking a seat from the Tories I'd vote UKIP.
It is dishonest to blame the Tories for the whole Brexit mess
True.
It was also the fault of Russia, tabloid media, Aaron Banks' Leave.EU and associated "bad boys," and the useful gullible both within the electorate and the Tory cabinet itself.
...and the Lexit lobby of the Labour Party that campaigned for Brexit, and the 30% of Labour voters that voted Leave.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48039984.amp
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_Leave