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Binners, I was once asked what the creative industries contributed.. in a house that an architect designed, in a room influenced by a million interior design influences, and the chair he was sitting on was designed like every other product around around the room, by a designer, the clothes he was wearing were designed by a fashion designer, yup even Asda jeans.
He had a tv to watch film, media, visual advertising, all creative industries, and a car that was designed by an automotive designer, with a radio, a creative media in its own right and listened to music created by musicians, shops in a supermarket surrounded by shelves of millions of packaging designs, reads the odd magazine filled with graphics and photography, has a laptop to browse the work of web designers, graphic designers, content creators, animators, digital artists.
He put the kettle on, that was designed by a product designer, to have a coffee..out of a cup, yup there was a ceramicist behind that, no doubt now geared for mass production, they do that too, they also did the plate with the biscuit on, it was wrapped in silver foil with graphics emblazoned across it, he also plays computer games and has a reasonable library of books, who made those I wonder?
And he works for a company that was rebranded with an internationally recognisable logo, and voted for brexit.
Yes, if someone didn't know that the Britain was an international powerhouse of creative ingenuity, but thought the fake concept of sovereignty was worth something, they probably won't understand how to work out the future loss of revenue via intellectual property.
Anyone check that before we tore up the pay cheque? nope.
a non-profit organization set up to benefit the European animation industry?
Which is exactly my point. Kelvin sad there were no laws preventing uk animators from contributing. Is he wrong? More to the point what’s to be gained from this protectionist approach? There are many reasons and benefits to be in the eu, but this sort of protectionism isn’t one of them.
It’s not about the law, it is about being a member or associate country and being involved. This is what a Hard Brexit is all about. No longer being involved. Withdrawing. Not cooperating. No collaborators. Refusing to get involved even where industries have asked for us to be. See also Horizon and Erasmus+ (and Euratom, IEM, etc etc). Business and individuals in the UK are now hampered by the UK government’s decisions to not be involved.
Anyone check that before we tore up the pay cheque?
So do you (and Binners) agree with the prevailing view here that creative professionals should suffer because of the politics (not the laws, Kelvin already confirmed that) of brexit? Or should animators in the uk and eu put aside their political differences and continue working together for mutual benefit?
Animators? Scientists? Researchers? Academics? Engineers? Designers? Yes, all hampered by the UK government not being involved in the bodies set up to help people collaborate across borders.
wtf has it got to do with laws? We are not talking about laws, we are talking about groups of people coming together and cooperating/collaborating.
Membership of those groups is defined by the groups themselves, according to their aim. Here we have a group who's aim is to foster collaboration within the European animation industry for their mutual benefit. Yes, they could throw-open membership to the whole world. but then it wouldn't be doing what it was established to do.
Your argument is only one step away from "all-lives matter".
Jesus christ.
We - as a country - were eligible to take part in a European organisation, to wit the Cartoon Club or whatever it's called, by dint of our membership of the EU. When we left the EU we no longer met the entry criteria.
Other non-EU countries such as EEA members appear to get a priority consideration for joining, but we left that too.
Beyond that, it's explained in the PDF that I linked and you probably didn't read, and the previous posts I and others have made time and again which you've also ignored until you can find one you can poke a hole in.
We fell out of ERASMUS+ as a nation state. Reckon the EU are punishing us because it's all political when it shouldn't be and you don't understand why we can't just send a few students over for Freshers' Week?
Jesus christ. You're either trolling just to get a rise or you're an idiot, and I don't believe for a moment that you're an idiot. I don't know why I keep taking the bait.
So do you (and Binners) agree with the prevailing view here that creative professionals should suffer because of the politics (not the laws, Kelvin already confirmed that) of brexit?
Oh **** off. That's not the prevailing view and you know it.
Swap "should" with "unfortunately" and you're closer.
So do you (and Binners) agree with the prevailing view here that creative professionals should suffer because of the politics (not the laws, Kelvin already confirmed that) of brexit? Or should animators in the uk and eu put aside their political differences and continue working together for mutual benefit?
I don't think anyone is saying creative professionals should suffer, they are saying that there are inevitable consequences to not being in the EU, you are actually the first creative I have come across that didn't know this and moan about it before brexit.
I don't know the particular complications for animators, it sounds like you need a visa to work or take part in EU business events, if so it's not just you, this was the deal struck for you, no one felt it important to cover that in negotiations, it was all about trading with the rest of the world, presumably brexiters would suggest you go there in stead.
UK: we dont want to be in your club, give us our money back
EU: ok
UK: Waaaaaaa! why you not let us in club? I'm telling, err no-one, cos there's no one who cares
the view from the rest of the world is that the UK is a slow motion car crash off a cliff.
think I'll stay over in Oz for another decade
I think that's the sound of a distant penny dropping.
In fact, I think that's a sound that going to become deafening over the coming months. "oh, so because of Brexit we won't be able-to/eligible-for/included-in XYZ any more?" Insert inevitable and easily forseeable negative outcome here.
Hopefully some people's response will be to admit to themselves that they were fooled by the tories, and badly let down by Corbyn/Labour and vote accordingly next time. But I fear that most people will double down on the populist message and allow themselves to be convinced that it's somehow the EUs fault for unfairly excluding excluding plucky old Britain.
The wedge will be driven deeper by the politicians , making it even less likely that deals benefiting Britain can be agreed. Those Bastards! We'll show them.....
think I’ll stay over in Oz for another decade
We are planning to move home to the UK at the end of next year (Covid, children, aging parents etc) - but that's contingent on the UK not turning into a complete basket case in the meantime.
We are planning to move home to the UK at the end of next year (Covid, children, aging parents etc) – but that’s contingent on the UK not turning into a complete basket case in the meantime.
Yeah, its a hard choice. particularly if this trajectory continues
Yeah, its a hard choice. particularly if this trajectory continues
Yeah, ideally we would wait another 3-5 years - but we have a three and a five year old who haven't seen their grandparents since they were 1 and 3 respectively. We facetime obviously, but I find the guilt absolutely crushing. We were only supposed to be over here for a couple of years...... been here 9
you got PR or citizenship? can always come back
Yeah citizenship. That’s a prospect that has markedly improved from today - hotel quarantine with the kids was not an appealing concept (we did consider it though).
doors always open then
How long before covid and Brexit are separated in the blame game? Covid has done a fantastic job of muddying the waters for the layperson.
The situation in NI is becoming increasingly bizarre. Listen, watch or read anything from the 6 counties about how relived they are, how the tension is already easing and nearly every company, shop, organisation is happy about the "EU climbdown" to allow them to behave, well, not to put too fine a point on it, as if they're back in the EU.
And so to the UK mainland press, especially the more Brexity end, how to report this good news from across the sea...errr? Anyone?
but we have a three and a five year old who haven’t seen their grandparents since they were 1 and 3 respectively.
So you’re stopping your kids from seeing their grandparents (and vice versa) because of brexit? FFS man it’s only politics. Stop watching the news and you wouldn’t know the difference. What’s going to change between now and a few years?
So they've now temporarily (6 months) relaxed the rules on cabotage (spelling) for foreign lorry drivers, pretty much reversing the tightening they bought in after Brexit.
The industry doesn't seem happy about it and it does seem to go against everything they have recently been doing.
But Grant Schapps is selling it as a common sense approach and one of the Brexit benefits of being able to take back control....
So you’re stopping your kids from seeing their grandparents (and vice versa) because of brexit?
Stop that Dazh. You’re being a dick.
So you’re stopping your kids from seeing their grandparents (and vice versa) because of brexit? FFS man it’s only politics. Stop watching the news and you wouldn’t know the difference. What’s going to change between now and a few years?
Uh, I dont think Batty lives in the UK and will be significantly affected by both the pandemic and in the future Brexit implications on migration options.
Which is exactly my point. Kelvin sad there were no laws preventing uk animators from contributing. Is he wrong? More to the point what’s to be gained from this protectionist approach? There are many reasons and benefits to be in the eu, but this sort of protectionism isn’t one of them.
Were you the bloke on Question Time last night? He's showing your level of 'reasoning'...
https://twitter.com/bbcquestiontime/status/1448767383879962624?s=20
Yes - respectfully: wind your neck in, you don’t know what you are talking about
Yeah, ideally we would wait another 3-5 years – but we have a three and a five year old who haven’t seen their grandparents since they were 1 and 3 respectively. We facetime obviously, but I find the guilt absolutely crushing. We were only supposed to be over here for a couple of years…… been here 9
Don't feel guilty, they can always come and see you. We use to worry about this (when the kids were younger), and then a friend pointed out that both sets of grandparents were retired, what was stopping them coming to us.
Unfortunately, there has been a global pandemic preventing them from coming and seeing us for the last two years.
Good news is that this is changing from 1st November - announced today! Parents of citizens now allowed in
Binners, you contininue to give examples of how creative industries create turnover rather than tax revenue.
You quoted fashion. I started a Great British products thread and checked out some of the suggestions made. Some were properly British, but some were at best a British design office. All the production was foreign and given the structure of the companies it was abundantly obvious there was scope for concentrating profits somewhere other than the UK.
As for industrial designers, take Dyson. There may be a design office in the UK but the products are made elsewhere and the tax is paid elsewhere:
https://www.cityam.com/boris-johnson-told-sir-james-dyson-he-would-fix-tax-issue/
If you want to make it profitable for companies to do everything in the UK/EU you need protectionism to cost them more than tax and higher labour costs. The EU has import duties that are IMO too low, it's too attractive to make stuff elsewhere and too easy to pay tax elsewhere.
Hilarious that dazh is saying the EU is the one imposing unnecessary bureaucracy 🤣🤣
The amount of extra red tape created by brexit is insane (in our lab there's an item a week we have to chase or pay a charge on we never had to prebrexit)
Just wait until we finally implement post brexit import checks on EU goods (& that bit of protectionist red tape is courtesy of the WTO) its going to be carnage
I see the government is now allowing eu drivers to do multiple drops in the UK, but they'll still be based in the EU (& paying taxes there)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58921498
And despite the fantasies of Johnson & dazh its another example of brexit not improving the lot of UK workers, instead it just makes the UK less competitive and we end up importing more goods & losing jobs
Eventually people might figure out immigrants grown your economy
eg we are culling turkeys & pigs for incineration, & are instead importing bacon & frozen turkeys from Europe for xmas
UK farmers facing huge losses, how long before they fold?
Meaning prices rise for consumers...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58895250
Good news is that this is changing from 1st November – announced today! Parents of citizens now allowed in
For real life? Sweet!
Good news!
EDIT: The travel restrictions loosening that is, not the shifting of UK work to offshore suppliers in the name of keeping people with funny accents out of the UK.
So you’re stopping your kids from seeing their grandparents (and vice versa) because of brexit? FFS man it’s only politics
Grandparents used to be here for 6 months of the year. Covids a bastard
Moving back to the uk Brexit means a significant drop in standard of living and lifestyle
too easy to pay tax elsewhere
Things are finally starting to move there. One positive of Brexit perhaps… the EU can now push for international rules on making it harder for multinational companies to avoid taxes. The UK (and a few of the smaller states, including Ireland) where always a brake on such initiatives. Pretty obvious why we were, our offshore tax havens are the top three in the world, and all are highly interconnected with London.
For real life? Sweet!
Yes, the new premier is simultaneously removing the requirement to quarantine on arrival (at all - not even home quarantine), and expanding the definition of “close relatives” of citizens to include parents. Whoop.
Moving back to the uk Brexit means a significant drop in standard of living and lifestyle
I think we were/are comfortable with where things have been until now… but the concern is what will the place be like at this time next year? Food shortages and energy hyperinflation are not a tempting prospect. I work in Pharma, which I hope is relatively secure in the UK market but who knows?
Moving back to the uk Brexit means a significant drop in standard of living and lifestyle
Any figures beyond tabloid hysteria and pro-EU bias to back that up? You'll also need to define 'significant'.
Nah - don’t think I’ll bother.
You know we live here, right?
Source and full article for Kelvin's "chaos monkey" screenshot on the previous page:
https://www.ft.com/content/ff650169-34bc-4ac9-9dc9-dcc429c580ec
And despite the fantasies of Johnson & dazh its another example of brexit not improving the lot of UK workers, instead it just makes the UK less competitive and we end up importing more goods & losing jobs
This is exactly what's happing with the company I work for. All production and design engineering is is going offshore, that's around 100 staff going. Those of us (yes I'm one of the lucky ones) who are left will be relocated into a small sales office.
I would say that the great majority within the company (especially the ones who worked on the assembly lines) voted to leave, They used to say that they pay better at sainsburys. If that were the case I'm sure they would have gone.
All this talk about being given a fair wage for doing their job all it does is fuel inflation and no one is really better off. Appart for, I guess landlords who just put up rent.
Any figures beyond tabloid hysteria and pro-EU bias to back that up? You’ll also need to define ‘significant
50% drop in salary.
So… your company is trying to deal with the effects of the pandemic and Brexit at the same time… forgot about all that, what you should be doing (assuming you hope to stay in business beyond this mess of a winter) is to be preparing for the trade war…
Okay, this is in the Telegraph (no link, sorry, find it yourself if you subscribe) so it could be easy to dismiss as fantasy nonsense… but their man is in number 10 (well, he is sometimes)… and can you think of a better way for him to win the next election than presiding over a trade war, where you’re either on side or a collaborating traitor? Likelihood low, but you can bet it’s being weighed up by Johnson. Don’t rule it out.
Isn't this how Star Wars stars?
Chapeau molgrips 😂
Isn’t this how Star Wars stars?
'Start war-gaming now', nice language to play to the patriotic victim type, the Telegraph could teach the USSR how to win minds.
FFS man it’s only politics. Stop watching the news and you wouldn’t know the difference.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Says the eejit who was just greetin' cause he cannae go tae cartoon club.
I'm sure the fishermen and slaughter men will be pishin' themselves at the irony.
Anyone else I'd have sympathy for, in your case, what's that phrase again, something about a petard?
Re kelvin's post ^^^ - as if proof was needed that the torygraph is an arsewipe.
Well you can’t get stuff on the shelf’s currently so wot difference is a trade war going to make, different problem but the end effect appears the same to the public.
He’ll use whatever he thinks will get him another 5 years or provides needed distraction when required.
I do remember the first carrefour in Bristol as a kid in probably the end of the 70’s and the amazement of how much choice you had compared to what we were used to.
Like I say if you’ve never had it you don’t miss it so freedom of movement and lots of choice on the shelves will be forgotten if they can get a bit of time under the Brexit bridge.
The new norm.
Like I say if you’ve never had it you don’t miss it so freedom of movement and lots of choice on the shelves will be forgotten if they can get a bit of time under the Brexit bridge.
Social media will help demonstrate to the young that things are better elsewhere. In top of that, young people are being so screwed over by house prices etc that they are already looking for an alternative.
Looking at my own kids as they get older they are getting their influences from outside the family and immediate peers far more than we were as kids because of the diverse media they consume, so maybe this will help to break the cycle of people voting the way their parents did.
Winter of discontent 2.0
That's how history will remember this period, only it won't be used in reference to one particularly bad winter, it will refer to a whole decade.
I hope molgrips is right, that as the youth mature they will reject this UKIP vision of little Britain wholesale. Brexit divided the country by age more than anything else. My only fear is that the right wing will only be able to gain traction with future generations by luring them further down rabbit holes of conspiracy theories and extremist nationalism.
The long term outlook for the Conservative party is for them to get even nastier....much much nastier.
Social medias a double edged sword thou…..
Once you’ve mastered effective use of it you get where we currently are. Look at the targeted anti eu crap they put out, that unless you saw would’ve be unaware what was being used to manipulate people.
We only saw the scale of this after the fact.
I do think you need a more vibrant option than the Labour vs Tory stitch up.
Looking at my own kids as they get older they are getting their influences from outside the family and immediate peers far more than we were as kids because of the diverse media they consume, so maybe this will help to break the cycle of people voting the way their parents did.
The daughter of a colleague of my GF has been spat on at school for being Polish... I wish I shared your optimism, we are in a society where some sections regard racism as acceptable and also blame everyone else for their life.
mrmo - thats what happens when the party in power legitimises and stokes racism - deliberately.
Look at the targeted anti eu crap they put out,
Yeah, but are young people seeing it? Or old gammons?
Wot I’m getting at is they’ll just use the same playbook, hmm eu was stopping us Protecting polar bears doesn’t smell like bacon not everything was turkey joining the eu.
A depressingly accurate piece by Polly Toynbee in the Grauniad
The Tories are sacrificing Northern Irish businesses on the altar of Brexit purity
Here comes the destroyer, as David Frost, the Brexit minister, stomps into talks on the Northern Ireland protocol this week with European commission vice-president Maroš Šefčovič. His mission from Boris Johnson is to stir up Brexit trouble, and keep stirring: yes, even at the risk of stirring the darkest shadows of Northern Ireland’s history. Let Brexit never be done if it can keep alive the antagonisms that shot Johnson into No 10.
Have you noted Mail readers (Mail readers!!!) have said in the Mail on Sunday poll that if asked again they’d vote 45-39 to remain in the EU (I am assuming 16% don’t know but who knows).
I’ll repeat that. Mail readers.
Have you noted Mail readers (Mail readers!!!) have said in the Mail on Sunday poll that if asked again they’d vote 45-39 to remain in the EU (I am assuming 16% don’t know but who knows).
The numbers I saw were 45:36. If you assume that the 19% don't knows translates into none-voters, then that means a putative vote of 56%:44% Remain:Leave.
IIRC, the 2016 Leave vote was just over 1/3 of the voting population, so those numbers could be seen as the Leave vote holding up, but lots of non-voters moving to a remain position.
I’ll repeat that. Mail readers.
A survey for the Mail, but not necessarily of Mail readers, is my understanding.
Be interesting if the Mail decides to follow the money and change its tone - full page apologies for false stories and misleading it's readership to vote the wrong way, with opinion pieces demanding another referendum.....
What...sorry...must have nodded off, had the most peculiar dream.....
Be interesting if the Mail decides to follow the money and change its tone
They've a history of changing stance on the same day to sell more papers.
Yay, cheaper GroundEffect and Macpac kit.
Just don't try to buy Vaude or other European kit.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58988711
Tbh aren’t the E.U in the process of negotiating one anyway.
So the Uks arrived earlier but what’s the price 🙂
Never mind a trade war - lets have some over the top Trafalgar Day celebrations. The Gammons can get all frothy about the really good old days!
https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-latest-activity/features/trafalgar-day
Ahh the good old days when you’d wake up with a new job after having too many pints down the harbour tavern 🙂
Tbh they only get frothy over WW2 stuff as that’s the films they remember watching/hallucinating they lived thru.
Trafalgar Day is not exactly new news since Brexvid, is it?
Tbh they only get frothy over WW2 stuff as that’s the films they remember watching/hallucinating they lived thru.
That's something I never really understood about this whole notion of viewing WWII through pineapple-ringed spectacles. It ended in 1945, anyone who can even vaguely remember anything about it first-hand must be in their 80s or older.
Cougar
Full MemberThat’s something I never really understood about this whole notion of viewing WWII through pineapple-ringed spectacles. It ended in 1945, anyone who can even vaguely remember anything about it first-hand must be in their 80s or older.
I think inevitable tbh- the less people that remember it, and the less people that got first hand accounts from relatives that lived through it, the easier it gets to be jingoistic and flagwavey about it. I mean, i grew up with all the war films and Commando comics and action man and that but at the same time it was tempered by having assorted relatives around to occasionally tell us what it was really like, or have gigantic meltdowns at family parties about being a POW. Or younger relatives who missed the war but grew up in the immediate aftermath like my mum and dad. But that all gets thinner and thinner every year and so it gets easier to fantasise about it or hijack it.
That’s something I never really understood about this whole notion of viewing WWII through pineapple-ringed spectacles. It ended in 1945, anyone who can even vaguely remember anything about it first-hand must be in their 80s or older.
The Guardian has covered this
This week Iain Duncan Smith has been attracting no little criticism for suggesting civil servants need to get back into the office – presumably to protect precious small businesses such as Pret a Manger and commercial landlords with a diverse city-centre portfolio. In a really quite bizarre piece in the Mail on Sunday that included a segue about trying to get his motorcycle licence that any other writer on earth would have had firmly edited out, Duncan Smith – a man born in 1954 – wrote: “When I think of all the brave civil servants who went to work in the 1940s, determined to do their bit regardless of the threat from falling bombs, I wonder what has happened to us as a nation.” Well Iain, we got broadband.
Twice as many UK citizens have been killed by corona than UK civilians were killed in WW2
Its flag shagging basically and it plays into their fantasies of plucky UK
when the truth is were were not invaded because Hitler thought us Aryan ( to oversimplify greatly) and hoped we would join him and US industrial might and manpower actually defeated Germany along with Russian manpower
When I think of all the brave civil servants who went to work in the 1940s, determined to do their bit regardless of the threat from falling bombs, I wonder what has happened to us as a nation.” Well Iain, we got broadband
In line with the rest of the Brexiteers. IDS is as thick as mince. Maybe we should all smash our bathrooms up and install a privy at the bottom of our gardens while we’re at it? Rip our central heating out and get coal deliveries going again
I love the way these idiots endlessly bang on about cosy, patriotic, over-romanticised myths while ignoring the actual realities of an era they never lived through anyway, any more than I did. The ****ing clowns
Following binners post ^^^ rip up the decking and patio, get rid of hot hub.
Lawn, shrubs and trees - all out.
Your garden is now your allotment; dig for Britain- grow your own fruit'n'veg to survive austerity v2.
Rip out your block paved drive, park on the street if you still have a car; more growing space.
Use daily mail and express as arse wipes.
That overwhelming feeling of nostalgia - or is it nausea from the outpourings of the brain dead like drunken smith.
Could be huge opportunity for night soil men when outdoor bogs are in the resurgence.
“When I think of all the brave civil servants who went to work in the 1940s, determined to do their bit regardless of the threat from falling bombs, I wonder what has happened to us as a nation.”
I always like the ‘to do their bit’ bit 🙂
At the first sign of threat, air sirens and all that, you’d be scampering to a bunker and tbh there was no difference in threat between being sat in your office or asleep at home in your bed or walking down the st.
Even the fantasy makes no sense, did they stoically sit typing away whilst the bombs dropped around their desks, heroically typing that urgent memo about spam fritters.
That’s not even going on about the poor sods on the frontline who didn’t have a nice safe government job well away from the fighting.
Who err would most likely be us.
Twice as many UK citizens have been killed by corona than UK civilians were killed in WW2
A fact that needs writing on a boxing glove so we can punch them with it every single time they come out with this bollocks.
I'm "patriotic" by the standards of this place but I'm not a blinkered uneducated flag shagger by any means.
And plenty of public servants have been on the frontline in offices and doing home visits throughout the pandemic. And their actions, as well as those of us working from home, kept things working so we didn't have the complete collapse of public services that would have seen him and his party get thrown out on their ears.
So he can, frankly, **** right off.
Its flag shagging basically and it plays into their fantasies of plucky UK
I'm sure not the only one who's seen various media reports about the next General Election - basically how late can Johnson afford to go to the country, before the Brexshit is really obvious to even the most hard-of-thinking?
IMO they'll be looking for an 'event' to help them, a bit like Thatcher did with the Falklands War. She's not living forever...
Even the fantasy makes no sense, did they stoically sit typing away whilst the bombs dropped around their desks, heroically typing that urgent memo about spam fritters
only in a monty python sketch that was never made
Who err would most likely be us.
I don't think so. The STW demographic is much more Dads Army than frontline.
I’m sure not the only one who’s seen various media reports about the next General Election – basically how late can Johnson afford to go to the country, before the Brexshit is really obvious to even the most hard-of-thinking?
Surely that was always going to be the way... While the cult faithful still believe Brexshit is the bomb diggy, get the GE started. Plus, Labour aren't exactly back in from the cold yet. Johnson will out-brazen the immediate forthcoming bad winter with "mumble mumble Covid mumble EU didn't want our oven ready deal" or some similar variation. But more bad years? Two winters? Three winters? Mask might slip by then.
But who knows. I completely underestimated how much the country would go for his matey-matey-I'm-one-of-the-lads-me-whoops-another-mistress-up-the-duff clown act.
I’m still surprised how quickly we they moved to allow a return to more pollution going into our rivers and seas (“leaving the EU is not about seeking to lower standards”), but it’s a good example of why opting out of common standards cuts you off from the market… this tweet sums it up better than any long post could…
https://twitter.com/seindal/status/1452180600530644994?s=21