Thanks for the thinly veiled insults Dazh.
Really not meant as an insult so you shouldn’t take offence. It’s just a plain fact that that anyone who diverges from the popular view here is jumped upon. It’s a bit like unconscious bias or other forms of coercion when those in the minority are forced to conform through fear of being isolated. It’s nothing more than standard herd social dynamics.
In this example, they “jumped on” Binners, and said there wouldn’t be delays at ports, and it was all in hand. A few of us pointed there already are, and why there are likely to more in the New Year, especially in a no deal scenario. They then asked about this exact same point a day later, and I clumsily suggested reading back over what we already said in replies to them just a few pages ago. I, personally, intended that to be helpful, not rude, and they took offence. You quoted them getting offended and suggested there was a pile on. Kryton’s contributions are valid and welcome here, and I hope will continue, but when excitedly calling someone out for scaremongering, about something not only likely to happen, but already happening, then responses should be expected pointing out what’s going on.
Really not meant as an insult so you shouldn’t take offence. It’s just a plain fact that that anyone who diverges from the popular view here is jumped upon. It’s a bit like unconscious bias or other forms of coercion when those in the minority are forced to conform through fear of being isolated. It’s nothing more than standard herd social dynamics.
No dazh
If you make a statement, especially one that disagrees with the consensus view (in this case that brexit is a disaster that will only benefit a few rich tories)
Then you need to come with evidence or at least try & justify what you're saying
Otherwise yes, you'll get called out
That's not as unreasonable as you're trying to make it seem
Its a shame to see this thread, like many, resorting to mud slinging and name calling, when we are all facing the sh!t storm of all sh!t storms. But then again, what is said on here and most other forums/social, media will have absolutely zero impact on the future of this sad little isle, so.....if it helps you feel ever so slightly better.....sling away.
(in this case that brexit is a disaster that will only benefit a few rich tories)
That’s not what I’m talking about though. Brexit is demonstrably a stupid and ridiculous thing that will create huge damage. The fact that many think otherwise, despite the clear evidence is more my concern, and that won’t be solved by ignoring them and dismissing them, or reminding them of how shit it will be and how they will suffer from it. That’s the same condescending attitude which made many vote for it in the first place, and it’s certainly not going to change their minds.
or reminding them of how shit it will be
Okay, there are have been no problems at the ports, and there will not be in January either. All supply chains are working just fine, and will continue to do so for at least the first six months of 2021. Glass half full (not sure what of though… tasty misdirection perhaps).
That’s the same condescending attitude which made many vote for it in the first place, and it’s certainly not going to change their minds.
So what will? I think everyone agrees with you that these people need to be engaged, persuaded to see that what they are doing is going to cause themselves and the rest of us harm...... but we've been trying that for the past 4 years, and it hasn't worked. Eager to hear what your approach would be as the clock runs down.
Unfortunately, one of the prequisites for being a brexiter is being wilfully ignorant of the facts, even when they are presented to them in every conceivable shape/flavour so as to try to make them understood. So how do you convince that person? The US are wrestling with exactly the same thing.
Not a rhetorical question - lets hear it.
there are have been no problems at the ports
Missing the point again. They don’t care, or believe it will be a temporary problem. Or they think it won’t affect them directly, because other than being f**** over repeatedly politics rarely affects them, and what’s a little more inconvenience on top of all the other crap?
Not a rhetorical question – lets hear it.
Are you asking how to persuade them against brexit or how to combat their ignorance? The former is impossible, and any attempt only compounds and entrenches the position. The latter though is possible. You give them power, a sense of agency, economic security and a belief that things will be better for their kids.
When people feel remote from and ignored by those whole rule over them it's not a surprise when they react against it, and when they get an opportunity to change it they'll take it. And brexit was the mother of all opportunities, provided by a self-serving and naive government and political party who for decades deflected their own failings onto others (the EU in this case).
There's no going back unfortunately, but the root problems can be addressed, and once they are things can improve. Or maybe I'm wrong and things will keep getting worse? It seems to me the best way to ensure that is to keep repeating the mistakes of recent history where people are disenfranchised and treated as human resources in an economic machine which doesn't serve them. We're not going to solve this problem by saying we should go back to 2015.
^ again, nothing there to disagree with..... in fact, I think everyone here will agree with that - and has done over the last 4 years. It's certainly been posed here ad infinitum.
You give them power, a sense of agency, economic security and a belief that things will be better for their kids.
Yep, yep, yep, yep...... all these things would obviously be excellent - the question is how that is achieved, and (importantly) how to do that in a group of people who, when presented with facts that are counter to their own viewpoint, reject them, and actively vote against their own interests?
Moreover, how to do that expediently, with the cliff edge in sight?
The latter though is possible. You give them power, a sense of agency, economic security and a belief that things will be better for their kids.
That's the problem, they were made to think Brexit would give them that, when it clearly won't.
So having been lied to by the "politicians" into voting for something that will make their lives worse, how the hell do you persuade them to vote for any politician who might make it better?
(That's a kind of rhetorical, off topic point. Brexit is happening regardless)
We have left the EU. There is no point trying to convince people that we shouldn’t do what we’ve already done. But that doesn’t mean that we have to join in with sticking our heads in the sand. Supply chains are, and will be, impacted, as the transition period comes to an end. The scale of the disruption will depend on whether we get a deal, when we get it, and what it covers. In the event of no deal, there are ways that impact can be reduced, but they can’t mitigate the issue completely… there will be supply chain issues. Being ready for them, rather than getting angry with people for pointing out they will happen, is something worth considering, and talking about. It no longer matters how you voted, or your long term hopes about what Brexit will deliver, we can all get ready for what is happening in the short term, eyes wide open.
Cockhome syndrome.
Genius! 😀
In this example, they “jumped on” Binners, and said there wouldn’t be delays at ports, and it was all in hand.
Speaking for myself, I didn’t say that. I criticised Binners for his constant sweary Boris bashing on the basis that although it may be correct it wasn’t helpful, and suggested that suggesting people should start stockpiling food was in appropriate, and work was being done to help the Port situation. I’m not having the argument again because...
Kryton’s contributions are valid and welcome here, and I hope will continue
... they won’t, because as I pointed out yesterday in another thread I feel I was made to feel uneducated in Brexit knowledge*, and an enemy of the thread populous for criticising binners call for stockpiling. There have also been veiled comments to a Brexiteer attitude which I do not hold.
Then when asking for advice yesterday, only one poster kindly took a few minutes to summarise it; the spiky attitude from others was essentially “read back through 110 pages and learn it yourself”
Regardless of how you all interpreted your actions that’s how I felt aka alienated, and I’m now conciously not bothering to contribute becuase of it For example, I was about yesterday to but held back from the obvious point confirmed yesterday in this thread that C19 has contributed to Port & goods disarray, is not 100% inflicted by Brexit. Also, did you know as of yesterday we signed the 57th non EU trade agreement with Singapore, the largest number of any country in such a period? Now, that may not mitigate all the impacts of Brexit, but it’s surely good news for the country. However, we don’t like any if slightly related Brexit good news here do we.
*is likely true compared to a lot of others but isn’t the point.
So no doubt this post will be torn to pieces but I have a job to do so I’m off, please enjoy a few minutes angst and frothing at my expense (again) you can have this one on me.
Our governments over the years have painfully failed us.
the root cause of this is the 20+ year propaganda campaign run by malign media barons, our useless pseudo democracy and the poor quality of our politicians. Blair had the opportunity to reform media ownership and bottled it. Johnson has majority power on a minority of the vote.
Constant low level jingoism is not properly challenged
The "left behind" are a symptom not the disease
Also, did you know as of yesterday we signed the 57th non EU trade agreement with Singapore,
fiddling around the edges and will do nothing to mitigate the damage of brexit. there is no brexit related good news
“read back through 110 pages and learn it yourself”
As it was me that said “read back”, I will point out the posts I was referring to were from the day before and were direct replies to you, so not “hundreds of pages and learn for yourself” and I also listed bullet points of some of the reasons the port problems are occurring, including many not Brexit related. Brexit is just the straw that broke the camel’s back at the ports. Sorry if you feel “uneducated” when people try and answer your questions for you. And none of us need to stick up for the PM, we can bash him as much as we want. No one deserves it more right now.
I criticised Binners for his constant sweary Boris bashing on the basis that although it may be correct it wasn’t helpful, and suggested that people should start stockpiling food was in appropriate, and work was being done to help the Port situation.
You are aware that I'm a fat middle-aged bloke howling into the abyss talking bollocks on an internet forum for other fat middle-aged blokes, and not the presenter of Newsnight?
The one thing that is going to get people stockpiling food and stuff is to do exactly what the government did yesterday and make a statement saying not to bother stockpiling food as everything will be fine
It's all a bit "Try not to think of an elephant", isn't it?
Clowns!
andy8442
Its a shame to see this thread, like many, resorting to mud slinging and name calling, when we are all facing the sh!t storm of all sh!t storms.
+1
with food bank use & child poverty already on distressingly high, I dont see how you can be so nonchalant about it all.
My wife and her band of volunteers have cooked and frozen 200xmas dinners, she's also got donations from the local slipper manufacturers and other businesses and managed to put a Xmas gift hamper together.
Some of the referrals coming through are heartbreaking to read.
I'm running about on Xmas Eve in my van collecting from the local supermarkets to then deliver to the local food bank to then distribute locally.
In a 1st world country it shouldn't be happening but there are large gaps that people are falling through.
Let’s see how the Telegraph are reporting this today… (they presumably aren’t “Boris Bashing”)…
A no-deal outcome could lead to a three-month "meltdown" at UK ports and significant tariffs on car and agriculture exports after it leaves the bloc, according to Yellowhammer, a leaked Whitehall document outlining the possible worst-case scenarios.
Extra reserves of non-perishable foods and essentials such as toilet paper are being built up by shops and suppliers to counteract the threat of turmoil at UK ports when the Brexit transition period finishes at the end of this month.
Disruption to fresh produce supplies are meanwhile being treated by retailers as likely, since they cannot be stockpiled.
Approximately 30 per cent of the food in British supermarkets is imported from the EU, meaning consumers can expect to see a dramatic increase in their weekly food bill if a deal is not agreed upon.
The Telegraph reported on December 14 that crucial updates to IT systems that will enable smooth trade between the UK and the EU from January are being delayed because of continually missed Brexit deadlines, likely heaping further chaos on already struggling ports.
And the only bit I’ve taken action on (we have 3 months worth of insulin in the fridge rather than the usual one)…
But the deputy chair of the British Medical Association (BMA), Dr David Wrigley, has raised concerns that some medicines with short shelf lives cannot be stockpiled, such as insulin. Despite these concerns, individuals have been discouraged from stockpiling their own medicines.
If insulin lasted longer, I’d have made sure we had more… because I’m not comfortable at all that there won’t be supply problems over the next few months.
As for food… I’ll expand on what I said in response the Binners’ stockpiling comment the other day… I’ve gone for accepting slightly higher prices and fewer choices in 2021… there is no way I’m stockpiling, it would be selfish… but if your budget is super tight, than getting some of the stables in now to avoid stress and expense in January might be wise.
The most courteous thing I think I could manage right now if confronted with a Brexit supporter bemoaning the effects of what they voted for is a shrug.
I will point out the posts I was referring to
But you didn't, did you Kelvin, only now in retrospect.
In which case:
so not “hundreds of pages and learn for yourself”
How how would I know of the now 112 pages to look at without looking at all of them progressively until I found my answer?
Sorry if you feel “uneducated” when people try and answer your questions for you.
Don't be sorry, its not a problem for me that people know more than I do, its only an issue when you ask those people and the forthcoming answer is made to be difficult to achieve to the point it feels personal.
we can bash him as much as we want
I never said you couldn't, I suggested it isn't helpful in the main, I essentially implied that same as Andy8442 a couple of posts above this, yet he gets a +1 from Pondo, I get slammed for trying to be less negative than others.
I totally support people trying to be less negative (even though Brexit is a thoroughly depressing and negative event to be living through) - Andy's point was neat and concise and fully in line with my own thoughts, it doesn't mean I don't have sympathy with some or all of anyone else's. It just feels like we've had four shitty years of Leavers Vs Remainers, which is depressing enough - now we're on the cusp, most of the leavers have (ironically!) left and the remainers have started arguing amongst ourselves.
Can't we all just get along? 🙁
It’s great to take a “glass half full” approach to life in general, but when preparing for January, it is not scaremongering to say people should expect supply chain problems. And I for one will absolutely not stop “bashing Boris” for the ongoing mess he has made… he’s had a lifetime of people quietly putting up with his damaging entitled behaviour… I feel no responsibly to join in with that. I have a positive attitude to life, but that absolutely does not extent to joining in with supporting that man in any way. I will not apologise for that.
the forthcoming answer is made to be difficult to achieve to the point it feels personal
I’m sorry for that. I just wanted to encourage you to read the replies many of us had already given, the day before, directly to you. Your apparent surprise at a news story saying exactly what we had been telling you, and then asking for explanations you’d so recently been presented with, got my back up. Let’s all take a relaxing sip from that glass and move on… or at least back onto the subject in hand, not the people posting.
A possible Brexit plus, according to the guy from the British Ports Association I was listening to the other day.
As a result of leaving the single market the BPA anticipate a decrease in RoRo traffic through the major pinch points (Dover, Harwich/Felixstowe and (Tyne?))and an increase in short sea container crossings making use of smaller ports, particularly along the east coast.
Coastal areas in the UK are some of it most deprived areas, and those around the older smaller ports even more so. Spreading the load will help regenerate coastal areas. I think the figure they used were £1 generated by the port = £7 generated in the local economy.
Obviously a long term thing that's the product of short term pain, but they were certainly seeing this as an opportunity.
Also, did you know as of yesterday we signed the 57th non EU trade agreement with Singapore, the largest number of any country in such a period? Now, that may not mitigate all the impacts of Brexit, but it’s surely good news for the country.
Not necessarily. Simply having a trade agreement isn't automatically a good thing - it has to be a good trade agreement.
Not necessarily. Simply having a trade agreement isn’t automatically a good thing – it has to be a good trade agreement.
Indeed. We signed a "hugely improved" trade agreement with Japan recently yet when pressed (repeatedly by both journalists and MPs) the secretary of state was unable to say just what those improvements over the EU deal it replaces were.
Also many of the deals are simply rollover deals, basically they've crossed EU out of the documents and put UK in its place.
Sorry to pop your bubble of positivity over the new trade agreement but from reading this:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55255082
"But while both sides are keen to tout this deal as a success - it is effectively a rollover of the EU Singapore free trade agreement."
It's replacing one we already had via the EU, so not really new at all, most of the others are the same.
Also, did you know as of yesterday we signed the 57th non EU trade agreement with Singapore, the largest number of any country in such a period?
Which is great but broadly speaking all the deals signed are pretty much just replacing the agreements already in place with the EU, so yes easy to achieve but very little if anything actually gained for the UK
Airbus not happy,
This is why Johnson will cave & get a deal
https://twitter.com/Brexit/status/1338562744652587012?s=19
Wrexham may have voted for brexit but they've elected their first tory in nearly a century
Airbus leaving world be a disaster for the local economy
As a result of leaving the single market the BPA anticipate a decrease in RoRo traffic through the major pinch points (Dover, Harwich/Felixstowe and (Tyne?))and an increase in short sea container crossings making use of smaller ports, particularly along the east coast.
I think that's the first genuinely possible positive I've heard.
This is why Johnson will cave & get a deal
I think you're massively misjudging Boris's loyalties. He cares nothing for the population of the UK who will be hugely negatively impacted. He's a sociopathic narcissist who literally doesn't give a flying ****! He has a pact with his backers which can only end in the delivery of a No Deal Brexit. They've already ploughed billions into this and expect a big return on their investment.
Then there's the ERG and the rabid ultra free-marketeers who, lest we forget, presently constitute the entire cabinet. They have, from day one, had only one outcome from this - the end of regulatory alignment. That is the holy grail. Failure to achieve that would render the entire Brexit project completely pointless. So they won't vote for it. And there are over 100 of them, the 2019 intake being the most barking of the lot. So simple mathematics dictates that even with the entire labour party supporting him, Boris can not force through any Brexit deal through parliament that does not allow the UK to diverge from (read: tear up) EU regulations
It's that simple. These 'negotiations' are a charade. The EU will not budge on the 'level playing field'. If you want access to the single market, you sign up to their rules. It's an absolute red line. But an end to this arrangement is the one thing Boris was tasked to deliver and promised he would.
No Deal is the only outcome. It always was. And no amount of posturing will change that
So you'll have to excuse my failure to embrace your positivity
I think that’s the first genuinely possible positive I’ve heard.
Hate to take the wind out of your sails & not sure if this has been posted (been away for a couple of days) but...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-55279468
& a Cornish MP's response...
https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/mp-accuses-cornwall-council-constant-4795403
Can you all just take a moment to stop and reread your posts before hitting submit?
I don't have a problem with people disagreeing with me on here, or proving me wrong, but the wording and the tone makes a huge difference to how it feels to be on the receiving end. And saying that in response to a post seems to lead to doubling down or piling on at times.
A lot of people are hurting over Brexit and Covid, and often seem to be lashing out rather than discussing. It's made some great and informative threads really unpleasant to read at times.
Be kind. Lord knows, we all need that at the the moment.
Hate to take the wind out of your sails & not sure if this has been posted (been away for a couple of days) but…
Oh, it wasn't in any way an endirsement of Brexit, I know the upsides are outweighed by.... Well, the downsides are just short of infinite and there's only the one potential upside I've seen so far.
That MP's a real charmer, isn't he? 🙁
A lot of people are hurting over Brexit and Covid, and often seem to be lashing out rather than discussing. It’s made some great and informative threads really unpleasant to read at times.
Be kind. Lord knows, we all need that at the the moment.
+1
That MP’s a real charmer, isn’t he? 🙁
All the Cornish MP's fall into that category. George Eustice's brother owns a farm/restaurant & he's screwing him over with Brexit.
one potential upside
We need to grab the positives when then come up. That's a medium term one though... short term those ports are currently operating at full capacity... there are containers stuck in ports in northern Europe that came from further afield but were diverted... companies being told not to expect to get them on the short routes to the UK any time soon. Longer term though... investment in the right places could help those small port areas (but that could have happened anyway, IMHO).
I will give you a long term benefit - Instead of sending money to the EU to have it repatriated to us on a basis of need, we can spend it directly in the UK on the basis of whatever takes the fancy of the gov' of the day, including but I am sure not limited to:
- Areas with their party MP
- Businesses owned by their mates
- Areas called London
I mean that has to be a benefit, right?
Speaking of fish, I'm not sure if this falls into the good news or bad news category. I suspect it falls into the category of 'Things the government haven't thought of'.
It highlights as well that Norway pays a big bureaucratic price for being able to sell their fish to the SM
Does irritate me when leavers constantly complain we just want a deal that norway/canada/Korea got, ignoring the differences on scope & trade offs in each deal
BenP makes a point I've been making to friends since 2015 since that bus rolled out with the £350m for the NHS.
If you believed that statement and others about taking back control of money, law etc, you also have to believe that the government in charge of that money are honest and will spend it to the benefit of the citizens of the UK.
Now who on earth believes the tories are gonna spend that cash on the public and the greater good of the country? I think there is some recent evidence to the contrary
Coastal areas in the UK are some of it most deprived areas, and those around the older smaller ports even more so. Spreading the load will help regenerate coastal areas. I think the figure they used were £1 generated by the port = £7 generated in the local economy.
I know my employer uses these little ports, bulk goods are expensive to move, think grain and fertiliser, so it makes sense to get the port as close to the source/destination as you can. Will this work more widely? You do need a certain level of facilities, you also need to have a ship that can service the port and container ships have been getting bigger for a while, A LOT BIGGER.
Speaking of fish
There is a nice big new boat built especially to fish those Norwegian waters... UK fisheries are warning it may never get used under a UK flag, and will have to be sold... I'll look for the info...
EDIT : here you go ... https://bylinetimes.com/2020/12/08/britains-cod-awful-fishing-fiasco-as-52-million-trawler-sits-idle/
As a result of leaving the single market the BPA anticipate a decrease in RoRo traffic through the major pinch points (Dover, Harwich/Felixstowe and (Tyne?))and an increase in short sea container crossings making use of smaller ports, particularly along the east coast.
There needs to be sufficient trailers available for Ro-Ro to work and containers are only viable if the port has the necessary handling equipment all ready to go now. Most of that equipment is made overseas and importing it will be a problem after 1 January.
