[Closed] Shots fired outside Westminster

I was in a conference a couple of miles away when it happened.

The Chairman asked if everyone was happy to continue and if anyone wanted to leave. No-one left.

The only difference I noticed was a lot of policeman on the streets, didn't notice are obviously armed and the later trains were busier than normal. I think people just held back to avoid the possible extra rush hour passengers.

Remarkably calm.

"Hmm. During heightened tensions, main railway stations are patrolled by armed police officers carrying sub-machine guns.
Clearly, the force doesn't consider your caveats relevant?"

I was talking about this specific incident, not in general.

The Pagan's terrorised plenty of people, Woppit, but no longer do so in great numbers. Unless you think that those sacrificed weren't terrorised and quite happy with being killed.

My thoughts and prayers are with those killed and injured, many horifically it seems.

We where travelling back to the UK yestersay so only saw the news from around 17:30 when more infirmation had been confirmed.

Given the world we live in today a car ramming affecting many people oppositte the Houses of Parliament and a subsequent knife (machette) attack and a fatal shooting the [b]only probable[/b] explanation is a Jihadist terrorist attack. Yes there are other possibilities but they are extremely unlikely.

I take the point that some posts may be "too soon" but anyone with an ounce of sense knows the likely chain of events

"Membership" of terrorst organisations is very different today than it was in the past. Now it's a sympathiser who gets his/her information via internet More than face to face. The days of radicaised individuals hoing to training campa in Libya, Afghanistan or ****stan are being replaced by "how to manauals" on the web. These car/stabbing atacks are not random or unplanned, to the contrary. Neither are they new, from Jerusalem to Austria (F1 event)!to France (multiple market attacks before Nice) to Germany (Berlin) to Lee Rigby's murder.

I commend the Muslim Council of Britain for their remarks. We are all aware that Muslims themselves are the biggest victims of Islamic extremism. However, they are also the major perpetrators.

I agree wholeheartedly with Edukator, whilst the Old Testament has passages outlining "acceptable violence" and attitides towards homsexualtity for example we find wrong today they not being used by radical preachers and extremists to encourage terrorism, violence and murder with a goal to see that religion dominate the world.

Jive Saudi's fund one form of Islam and arguably extremism but Iran funds another to a much greater and more extreme extent. As I posted above the biggest victims are other Muslims caught up in this primarily sectarian violence.

Another attack on British soil was inevitable, it won't be the last. Just as with the IRA we will go on with life and we won't be defeated.

Did we do the R4 tube station notice?

According to the reporter this has been posted - probably the best piece of writing I've seen in the subject.

"Terrorists are politely reminded that this is London and you can do what you want to us but we will drink tea and jolly well carry on"

As we say about toddlers throwing temper tantrums, they are only doing it for attention. There are enough idiots in the world to win on a 4 victims to one idiot ratio.

Set the police and intelligence services on them and ignore them.

Now spare a thought for the victims, their friends, families and colleagues (who will be of several religions and nationalities) and carry on with your lives.

Edit. Repetition.

tjagain - Member
One thing I don't understand - was the cop not wearing an anti stab vest? All cops in Edinburgh do at all times.

They're not a lot of use when some psychopath tries to behead you, unfortunately.

Edukator - Reformed Troll
The Pagan's terrorised plenty of people, Woppit, but no longer do so in great numbers.

So, on the behalf of what religion were the "Red Brigades" or the Baader-Meinhof gang or the Provisional IRA doing their terrorising?

Religion isn't the only source of human conflict, Woppit. It is however a source of some of the most futile conflicts. The troubles were always pitched as Protestants versus Catholics so the IRA was a politically and religiously identifiable group.

Political doctrines and religion have a lot in common. The doctrine is attributed to a God in one case (though is transcribed by human hands) or a visionary in the case political doctrine. In both case "belief" in the doctrine means people will commit horrors because the doctrine justifies it.

Edit: in many places the state, the political and religious doctrines are interwoven. The Queen is both head of state and head of the CoE.

The troubles were always pitched as Protestants versus Catholics so the IRA was a politically and religiously identifiable group.

It wasn't a religious thing at all. Purely political.

it just so happened that the 2 groups were different domination's of the same religion.

There was never a suggestion that the killing was performed because of a difference of opinion on what the Bible told you to do and how to do it.

I would disagree gobuchal because the religion was the thing that differentiated the two groups

I suggest you Google for some of the reverend Ian Paisley's Catholic hating speeches, Gobuchul. I haven't forgotten but don't want to post them here. Religious was at the origin and the heart of the conflict.

A difference though is that these people performing these acts in the name of religion are viewing themselves as a lot more expendable than someone from a political group, because they believe their act is going to end up with them reaping some sort of reward in another place.

There certainly is a place to blame muslim clerics for not providing a loud enough voice to clarify the possible misinterpretations of the Quran and the words of their prophet.

If the LBC presenter Maajid Nawaz can provide rational arguments disarming these radical viewpoints when expressed on his show, then it should be pretty easy for a cleric to do it.

because the religion was the thing that differentiated the two groups

No it wasn't. [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism_in_Ireland ]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism_in_Ireland[/url]

It was their ancestry. They are the descendants of British, mainly Scottish settlers.

The religion was a side issue, although it identified them, it wasn't the issue.

I would disagree

You can disagree all you want. But you'd be wrong, sorry. You wouldn't be the first to use "The Troubles" as a stick with which to beat theists. And, I'm fairly positive you won't be the last. Nobody was doing any beatings, kneecapping, bombing or polis informing in the. Some of god.

OK just one then:

"I denounce you, Antichrist! I refuse you as Christ’s enemy and Antichrist with all your false doctrine."

Rev. Ian Paisley on the leader of the Catholic religion.

"I denounce you, Antichrist! I refuse you as Christ’s enemy and Antichrist with all your false doctrine."

Rev. Ian Paisley on the leader of the Catholic religion.

Where in that quote does he call for acts of violence be performed in the name of his God and Religion?

He obviously doesn't like it but that's different from calling for a religious War.

I note that the murdered PC would probably still be alive if he had had more than a truncheon and an air of authority to protect himself.

Hmm. During heightened tensions, main railway stations are patrolled by armed police officers carrying sub-machine guns.

This was a Policeman manning a pedestrian gate who had someone attack him at close quarters with a knife. I'd have thought a gun would be limited use in that situation

tjagain

I would disagree gobuchal because the religion was the thing that differentiated the two groups

Edukator

I suggest you Google for some of the reverend Ian Paisley's Catholic hating speeches,

Historically, most or certainly a lot of Irish rebel leaders were Protestants. Irish independance and a united Ireland are political goals, not religious.

The civil rights movement of the late 50s and 60s in NI was just that - catholics were a 30% minority who were discrimnated against in every way mainly due to multiple brutal plantations in Ulster where catholic land was given to wealthy english land owners to populate with protestant labour loyal to the crown.

Paisley saw the civil rights movement as a potential threat to the Union and protestant rule in NI so he characterised the civil rights movement as an IRA resurgence, going so far as to murder catholics and carry out bombings in the name of the (then non existent) IRA.

What do you do with "vermin"? That's how Ian Paisley described Catholics.

Something still smell fishy Simmons, I hope he didnt die needlessly. We've seen unarmed coppers bring men down with machetes, it would seem that you just have to have enough manpower to do so.

It suprises me a LITTLE that he wasn't jumped on by half a dozen polcemen the moment the knives came out...at a gate like that.

HOWEVER I am completely ignorant of policing matters.

Wolfe Tone, one of the first leaders of the Irish Revolution was Protestant

Religion, Politics or just the naked lust for power.

None of these things are the CAUSE of the terrorism.

As was pointed out by binners some time ago, these things are just convenient hooks on which to hang a basic human impulse - thankfully not shared by the majority...

[I]Edukator - Reformed Troll
What do you do with "vermin"? That's how Ian Paisley described Catholics. [/I]

I thought you were going to go wax something?

To everyone else:
There are people out there right now who are having a really bad day as a direct result of the events of yesterday.

You're free to start a religion thread as previously suggested.

Yesterday a cowardly monster used a car and an edged weapon to attack unarmed people, resulting in loss of life.

Ask yourselves if this thread is the right place to have a "my knowledge of religion is better than yours" debate.

It suprises me a LITTLE that he wasn't jumped on by half a dozen polcemen the moment the knives came out...at a gate like that.

Thoughts for the poor Copper, but my first thought was ...how were they taken by surprise. I know the area quite well and the noise that car crashing caused, was huge apparently....so why were they not immediately on their guard so to speak? One of the coppers ran off to get help, rather than help his mate defend themselves. Clearly speculation and the full facts will emerge eventually, but just thought it odd they weren't ready for him.

Solo

You're free to start a religion thread as previously suggested.

Yesterday a cowardly monster used a car and an edged weapon to attack unarmed people, resulting in loss of life.

Ask yourselves if this thread is the right place to have a "my knowledge of religion is better than yours" debate.

Religious extremist kills five and critically injures 40 more in the name of religion, but don't discuss religion here. That would be inappropriate.

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/london-terror-attack-victims-pc-keith-palmer-aysha-frade-uk-muslim-community-donations-a7645396.html ]How come these religious people aren't being terrorist? I mean after all, they ARE religious...[/url]

"One of the coppers ran off to get help"

Yes, I think that term was to spare his blushes. Running off is just running off.

No blame though, most of us have never been tested so who are we to judge.

I also suspect his mate nay have been beyond help in which case running was prolly the right action.

Probably a good move to attempt to summon resources who can neutralise the threat quickly rather than ending up incapacitated and the attacker free to carry on. I wouldn't fancy going up against a machete with an asp but obviously the stw posters would do a better job

Rockape63

It suprises me a LITTLE that he wasn't jumped on by half a dozen polcemen the moment the knives came out...at a gate like that.
Thoughts for the poor Copper, but my first thought was ...how were they taken by surprise. I know the area quite well and the noise that car crashing caused, was huge apparently....so why were they not immediately on their guard so to speak? One of the coppers ran off to get help, rather than help his mate defend themselves. Clearly speculation and the full facts will emerge eventually, but just thought it odd they weren't ready for him.

Do you know what the 'guard paradox' is?

let me explain. Being a sentry or guard or providing any kind of security is 99.99999999% total boredom, with the occasional 0.000000001% blind panic.

The sort of person who can be a guard has to be able to do a job that mostly includes doing nothing, but that self same person must be asked to instantly jump to full action and thwart an attack, but one that might not, and probably never does come. In the real world, that sort of person doesn't exist.

What this means is that yesterday was like any day in London, a noise from the street isn't often a terror attack, and man walking up to you generally ISN'T a terrorist, who's going to try to kill you. Normality is er, the norm, and people act appropriately.

Mr Woppit - Member

How come these religious people aren't being terrorist? I mean after all, they ARE religious...

Well the obvious answer to anyone not trying to 'virtue signal' is that they have a different interpretation of their ambiguous religeous texts.

As was pointed out by binners some time ago, these things are just convenient hooks on which to hang a basic human impulse - thankfully not shared by the majority...

I was going to say much the same thing. If religion magically disappeared tomorrow, we'd still have nutters. We'd still have causes, we'd still have excuses for people to do bad things. And we'd still be looking for things to transition blame onto for as to why people do bad things (today Islam, tomorrow Grand Theft Auto) regardless of whether it's factually accurate or not.

Religious extremist kills five and critically injures 40 more in the name of religion, but don't discuss religion here. That would be inappropriate.

It depends on the nature of the discussion really, I suppose. Is it relevant to the discussion and respectful of the situation, or is is a tedious willy-waving contest between keyboard warriors?

Then shouldnt they be rotating people out of sentry duty a lot Max? Id be interested to hear what the rock ape has to say, I'm sure he's used to doing mind numbing sentry duty.

But in general, isn't this why it's best to do things in numbers even greater than a pair - more eyes - more likely that one of you will react quickly.

What this means is that yesterday was like any day in London, a noise from the street isn't often a terror attack, and man walking up to you generally ISN'T a terrorist, who's going to try to kill you. Normality is er, the norm, and people act appropriately.

Yeah I get all that, but only a few yards away a car crashes at speed into a bunch of tourists, killing and maiming and making a god awful noise and you'd have thought it might just have put them on edge? As I say, its just speculation and there may be all manner of reasons why not. Poor b@stard!

Id be interested to hear what the rock ape has to say, I'm sure he's used to doing mind numbing sentry duty.

Used to your mind numbing comments more like!

I think it's also worth noting that the reason only 4 people were murdered yesterday is because of our countries hard restriction on guns.

Yesterdays attacker carried a knife, not a gun, he killed more people with his car than with his knife, and when he got out of his car, after catching the one unfortunate Police officer off guard, he was quickly neutralised by security forces.

Now, just for one minute, imagine the exact same scenario where he had a pistol, or worse, a semi or full automatic firearm. That situation plays out daily in the USA, where rich white and powerful men defend their stupid right to carry arms, and use it to excuse the deaths of literally thousands of people every day...

Are we expecting a statement from the head of Hyundai UK stating that the terrorist actions aren't in anyway representative of the majority of Hyundai drivers, the vast majority of whom are proud to call themselves British and wish to live peacefully alongside drivers of other cars (even Kias)?

Just asking.

I didnt mean to offend rockape.

Im just a little pissed at a policeman dying and the platitudes being spoken by the politicians who cut their funding.

The cause of terrorism is western aggression and uneven distribution of wealth and resources

The tool that is used to push those desperate people over the edge into a state of mind where they are prepared to martyr themselves is religion.

I think it's also worth noting that the reason only 4 people were murdered yesterday is because of our countries hard restriction on guns.

Rockape63
Yeah I get all that, but only a few yards away a car crashes at speed into a bunch of tourists, killing and maiming and making a god awful noise and you'd have thought it might just have put them on edge? As I say, its just speculation and there may be all manner of reasons why not. Poor b@stard!

We know that, because we know the full picture after the event. In real time, confusion and lack of information become critical. The "fog of war" is also prevalent in piece time.

So, from that policemans position, could he actually see the crashed car, the man running with his knife? Cars crash all the time, in london there is always a siren, horn screach of brakes or other commotion.

Our brains often fail to put 2 and 2 together, because they use past experience to provide the most probably outcome, and normality is not a terrorist attack.

It should also be noted the classic system of 'defence in depth' quite clearly worked yesterday in this case. Unfortunately, if you are in the front line of that system, you are more vulnerable by default. Here, our uniformed, unarmed police officer acted, as intended, as that first line, and unfortunately paid the price. But the buffer he provided allowed the second line to stop any further penetration.

"Are we expecting a statement from the head of Hyundai UK"

A point that needs to be made more IMHO.

Sounds like he lived in a flat - what are the flat dwelling community doing about this problem in their midst.

He was wearing clothes, yet garment wearers are silent about this outrage caused by one of their own.

The only group who need to address this are the "murdering ***** with personality disorders" community and I don't think we'll be hearing much from them.

Again, apologies rockape - as I didnt actually apologise in the previous post.

"Are we expecting a statement from the head of Hyundai UK"

A point that needs to be made more IMHO.

Sounds like he lived in a flat - what are the flat dwelling community doing about this problem in their midst.

He was wearing clothes, yet garment wearers are silent about this outrage caused by one of their own.

The only group who need to address this are the "murdering ***** with personality disorders" community and I don't think we'll be hearing much from them.

Totally agree. I saw on TV this morning that they had someone on from the Muslim council. Does he really need to actually condemn someone doing this just because they are linked to his religion. Can people really not work that out for themselves?

(no answers please as I know the depressing answer)

Armchair heroes who have watched too many movies.

They stopped the attacker quickly, everyone did their job incredibly well. Be thankful for these people.

IS tv(who would have known?) have claimed IS are responsible.

The only group who need to address this are the "murdering ***** with personality disorders" community

My point. Entirely.

The cause of terrorism is western aggression and uneven distribution of wealth and resources

The tool that is used to push those desperate people over the edge into a state of mind where they are prepared to martyr themselves is religion.

He was British born and lived in Birmingham.

So?

Well, I am just wondering what western aggression pushed this poor desperate man over the edge.
A certain type of egotist will always find a cause to kill people who refuse to submit to what he believes in.

G5604 - it's more a case of hoping the bobby on the beat gets the right resources and treatment.

I would guess that the fella in some way identifies with people in other countries that are victims of capitalism

The only point that I'm clumsily trying to make is that blaming terrorism on religion is taking a very child like view

You're right though.. we see that strange egotism of the unfulfilled man forcing their view on others on here, all day every day

"The so-called Islamic State group has said it was behind the attack."

[url] http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-39363297 [/url]

He was British born and lived in Birmingham.

Hang on, has his identity been confirmed?

The last I heard, they were saying it was Terry Brooks but then that was retracted on the grounds that, well, it wasn't him at all and TB is in prison. Has there been another statement since?

From the link above, Cougar: "The Westminster attacker was British-born and known to the police and intelligence services, the prime minister has revealed."

Laura Kuenssberg just said (on daily politics) that the two plain clothes policemen who shot the attacker were Michael Fallon's personal protection officers, not guards stopping people from entering the house, so it could have been a lot worse if they werent there looking after Mr. Fallon. 😯

Cougar - yes; TM made statement in parliament this morning; identity known to police and intelligence services but not being disclosed yet.
He was investigated several years over 'violent' extremism'; described as '....peripheral and not part of current intelligence picture'.

frankconway - Member

IS tv(who would have known?) have claimed IS are responsible.

Of course they have, they also claimed responsibility for that fire at the Eiffel Tower.

Mr Woppit - Member
The only group who need to address this are the "murdering ***** with personality disorders" community
My point. Entirely.

Said it before, but I wish we (society, the media) would stop legitimising these events by describing them as ideologically-driven/terrorism/lone wolf attacks. They should should just be described as mass murders and those who perpetrate them as just plain old murderers.

I missed that, cheers both.

Are we expecting a statement from the head of Hyundai UK stating that the terrorist actions aren't in anyway representative of the majority of Hyundai drivers, the vast majority of whom are proud to call themselves British and wish to live peacefully alongside drivers of other cars (even Kias)?

It looks like the attacker was a Birmingham Asian. My wife is from Birmingham so I'll also be calling on her and her family to condemn yesterday's attacks.

Those folk who are questioning the coppers response have you ever been in emergency situations? While those I have been in are no threat to my life I have been in medical emergencies and despite having done it a few times and been well trained when the brown stuff hits the ventilation unit its astonishing what basic mistakes you make and how easy it is to be shocked into stasis / panic.

Said it before, but I wish we (society, the media) would stop legitimising these events by describing them as ideologically-driven/terrorism/lone wolf attacks. They should should just be described as mass murders and those who perpetrate them as just plain old murderers.

no, they shouldn't.

They should should just be described as mass murders and those who perpetrate them as just plain old murderers.

Yeah perhaps you could if it weren't for that ****ing great elephant in the room.

Tj, I just think that its a bit harsh as a society to ask PERHAPS relatively soft (compared to some) unarmed coppers to guard such a gigigantic target full of people that most of the country loathe. If I worked that job I'd be counting my days expecting one day to meet my maker via the medium of a truck bomb.

It seems more like a job for retired special forces types.

I guess they chose to do it but that still doesnt make it sit right with me.

I think this is made worse by the fact that the Parliament building is not really fit for purpose and is being used for tourism and image purposes. Parliament should be located aomewhere rural with security like Porton Down.

I agree Tom - but some folk seemed to be questioning why the cops did or didn't do various things and just from my peripheral involvement in emergency situations I know how hard it is to respond properly even when well trained and practised

Again, apologies rockape - as I didnt actually apologise in the previous post.

don't worry about it....thought you were having a needless pop, thats all!

Yeah perhaps you could if it weren't for that ****ing great elephant in the room.

I suppose by that you are referring to Islam.

I further suppose that you haven't read any of the previous posts where this has been discussed at length, concluding that the particular religion has nothing to to with it.

There is no elephant.

Tj, I just think that its a bit harsh as a society to ask PERHAPS relatively soft (compared to some) unarmed coppers to guard such a gigigantic target full of people that most of the country loathe. If I worked that job I'd be counting my days expecting one day to meet my maker via the medium of a truck bomb.

It seems more like a job for retired special forces types.

I guess they chose to do it but that still doesnt make it sit right with me.

I don't think i've read as much shite as i've read in this thread. PC Palmer was a highly experienced Police officer of 15 years service and prior to that he served with Royal Artillery (as an ex-artilleryman myself - 7 Para RHA), he wasn't some young lad who didn't know what he was doing, the guys working for Parliamentary and Diplomatic Protection are experienced officers, you only have to look at how quickly the situation was quelled, despite the huge number of innocent bystanders they were surrounded by.

It beggars belief that you feel after having watched no doubt a few "SAS heroes" documentaries on TV that you have the experience to comment on what he did wrong and that we have a surplus of "special forces types" just knocking around to stand on the door and protect everyone.

I'm sure what he did, he did out of civic duty and that when he left his family that morning, they would of expected him to come back that night and that is what should be remembered, the world has lost a good person and a family have lost a husband and father.

IF you can't say anything of intelligence or at least out of a slight bit of experience, then don't say anything at all perhaps?

I further suppose that you haven't read any of the previous posts where this has been discussed at length, concluding that the particular religion has nothing to to with it.

I failed to see that conclusion...

I am happy for Edukator and Woppit to criticise religious violence.

I am not happy for Edukator to claim that Islam is intrinsically violent and it's Islam's fault that we have terrorism.

Fair enough Scud, I just hope they are properly resourced that is all.

I did capitalise "perhaps" - so thanks for educating me.

I do wonder about the ethics of keeping Parliament in its current location though.

"Yeah perhaps you could if it weren't for that ****ing great elephant in the room."

Seems to me these people are usually drug takers, dropouts, petty crims.

What they rarely turn out to be are good Muslims.

Like I said earlier.. blaming terrorism on religion is the thought process of a daft kid..

It does however suit the atheist fundamentalist narrative

I am happy for Edukator and Woppit to criticise religious violence.

I am not happy for Edukator to claim that Islam is intrinsically violent and it's Islam's fault that we have terrorism.

The last act of terror against MPs in this country that I recall (just under a year ago) was certainly not Islamic in any sense (not a good Muslim, bad Muslim or any other sort of Muslim).

Internet tough guys, calling dead policeman soft - is there anything more pathetic?

I think this is made worse by the fact that the Parliament building is not really fit for purpose and is being used for tourism and image purposes. Parliament should be located aomewhere rural with security like Porton Down.

That's not really the way an open democracy works though is it.

If you start hiding your parliament buildings away in the countryside then what does that say about the country it sits in?

It says the terrorists are winning and we are changing our way of life because of them.

Probably g5604. But it doesn't spring to mind.

concluding that the particular religion has nothing to to with it.

No one sane would blame all of Islams followers for terror attacks.

However, to pretend that there no issues with areas of Fundamentalist Islam is completely insane as well.

This lunatic who carried out this attack would of described himself as Muslim and that he was following the true Islamic path.His branch of Islam glorifies and encourages murdering the Infidel.

Not all Muslims believe that this is the correct understanding of the Quran but a very small minority do.

There are 2,500,000 Muslims in the UK. So if only 0.001% do believe they should kill in God's name that's still 2500 potential martyrs.

To pretend this isn't anything to do with Islam is not going to help solve the problem.

I'm not sure people are criticising the individual police involved and their response. But if it is true that 2 randomly placed plain clothes shot the perp as BBC have reported then it begs the question what would have happened if Michael Fallon had been somewhere else.

It seems pretty clear to me that the security arrangements on that gate were not as good as they could have been and that a slightly more organised attack with perhaps a hand gun or more than one attacker etc would have got through and done some damage in the lobby or perhaps worse. I suspect this will be addressed in the coming days.

To say that this type of attack wasn't expected in exactly this area is ridiculous yet I have heard so many quotes from the media and politicians expressing this and saying 'well we will have to increase security at the gate now'

If I was the PM I would be asking what the hell were they doing before.

The bridge incident on the other hand is much harder to prevent though I guess railings might help.

Fair enough Scud, I just hope they are properly resourced that is all.

Probably not no, but then again nor are many sections of our armed forces, other branches of the emergency services, our Doctors, nurses, the list could go on.

The point was you seemed to insinuating that this would affect the level of professionalism shown yesterday and that the situation would of been different if every building of importance was guarded by armed "special forces" types? Has that situation ever played out differently in the United States where the Policing and Armed forces budgets are much higher per capita than ours? The French Police are armed, did it play out differently there?

Just think what that officers family lost, before you question whether he was up to the task