Forum menu
Tim "shouty shouty" Farron has resigned ... 😯
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40281300 ]BBC News[/url]
Crikey ... 😮
Must be you lot questioning his personal belief. 😯
So does that mean Brian Paddick is going [url= https://twitter.com/brianpaddick/status/874976886069374976?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fpolitics%2F2017%2Fjun%2F14%2Flib-dem-peer-brian-paddick-resigns-over-farrons-views-on-gay-sex ]to delete his tweet[/url] and not leave?
I met him, briefly on a protest march. Seemed like a nice bloke at the time.
But I can wholly understand Brian Paddick's stance.
So does that mean he's not coming on?
On or out?
This last two years have seen the Liberal Democrats recover since the devastation of the 2015 election.That recovery was never inevitable but we have seen the doubling of our party membership, growth in council elections, our first parliamentary by-election win for more than a decade, and most recently our growth at the 2017 general election.
Most importantly the Liberal Democrats have established ourselves with a significant and distinctive role - passionate about Europe, free trade, strong well-funded public services underpinned by a growing market economy.
No one else occupies that space. Against all the odds, the Liberal Democrats matter again.
We can be proud of the progress we have made together, although there is much more we need to do.
From the very first day of my leadership, I have faced questions about my Christian faith. I've tried to answer with grace and patience. Sometimes my answers could have been wiser.
At the start of this election, I found myself under scrutiny again - asked about matters to do with my faith. I felt guilty that this focus was distracting attention from our campaign, obscuring our message.
Journalists have every right to ask what they see fit. The consequences of the focus on my faith is that I have found myself torn between living as a faithful Christian and serving as a political leader.
A better, wiser person than me may have been able to deal with this more successfully, to have remained faithful to Christ while leading a political party in the current environment.
To be a political leader - especially of a progressive, liberal party in 2017 - and to live as a committed Christian, to hold faithfully to the Bible's teaching, has felt impossible for me.
I'm a liberal to my finger tips, and that liberalism means that I am passionate about defending the rights and liberties of people who believe different things to me.
There are Christians in politics who take the view that they should impose the tenets of faith on society, but I have not taken that approach because I disagree with it - it's not liberal and it is counterproductive when it comes to advancing the gospel.
Even so, I seem to be the subject of suspicion because of what I believe and who my faith is in.
In which case we are kidding ourselves if we think we yet live in a tolerant, liberal society.
That's why I have chosen to step down as leader of the Liberal Democrats.
I intend to serve until the parliamentary recess begins next month, at which point there will be a leadership election according to the party’s rules.
This is a historic time in British politics. What happens in the next months and years will shape our country for generations.
My successor will inherit a party that is needed now more than ever before. Our future as an open, tolerant and united country is at stake.
The cause of British liberalism has never been needed more. People who will fight for a Britain that is confident, generous and compassionate are needed more than ever before.
That is the challenge our party and my successor faces and the opportunity I am certain that they will rise to.
I want to say one more thing: I joined our party when I was 16, it is in my blood, I love our history, our people, I thoroughly love my party.
Imagine how proud I am to lead this party. And then imagine what would lead me to voluntarily relinquish that honour.
In the words of Isaac Watts it would have to be something 'so amazing, so divine, (it) demands my heart, my life, my all'.
Thank you,
Tim
Shame.
chewkw - Member
Tim "shouty shouty" Farron has resigned ...BBC News
Crikey ...
Must be you lot questioning his personal belief.
It's always nice to hear that an irritating squit has resigned.
Got it pencilled into [i]your[/i] diary?
crikey, STW would be a bit echoey if we all took that view and action.
He didn't seem very forceful, and I guess he accepts the questions were relevant and maybe even necessary, but does seem a shame nevertheless. Need a middle ground, definitely.
I agree with you, zippykona.
I admire that he articulated so clearly the idea that
There are Christians in politics who take the view that they should impose the tenets of faith on society, but I have not taken that approach because I disagree with it - it's not liberal and it is counterproductive when it comes to advancing the gospel.
It is unfortunate that he felt, in the end, he was unable to stay on as leader in spite of that entirely agreeable perspective.
+1 SaxonRider.
It's a shame, he seemed decent enough, but if I was being objective his performance was pretty poor, they have a much bigger fighting purse than any of the other non-labour/Tory parties but he went fairly under the radar for 2 years whereas UKIP as ever were everywhere on TV and not just Sky.
There are Christians in politics who take the view that they should impose the tenets of faith on society, but I have not taken that approach because I disagree with it - it's not liberal and it is counterproductive when it comes to advancing the gospel.
I have to say i dont want any politician of any hue to be give one seconds thought the advancement of the gospel as he clearly acknowledges the struggle in squaring the two.
The reality may well be that we are being ever more secular and "extreme" faith is seen as undesirable. Its also notable that I imagine May is as devout [ as was Blair and I think Brown] and they did not get the same level of attention for their faith.
who'd have thought it 6 weeks ago that jeremy corbyn would be the only one still in charge & control of their party...
Seemed a decent chap, seems to also be genuinely conflicted.
I applaud his candour & his honesty.
Cable for LD leader?
I hope it's Cable
Decent bloke, shame there aren't any more of them ..
Cable for LD leader?
He'd have to give up his security guard job in Aviemore's Tesco
Cable ... hhhmmm ... interesting call that. 😛
Nick Cleg....oh, right.
Seemed a decent chap, seems to also be genuinely conflicted.
I liked Farron from what little I'd seen of him, irony intended. But I'm kinda torn with this.
On the face of it it looks like "personal values appear in conflict with faith ergo faith wins," and assuming that that's actually the case rather than just a press smear campaign then my inner Woppit can get behind that as a reason to go.
OTOH, it does feel a bit like a) he was bullied through reports similar to how Corbyn was demonised for not condemning IRA violence when he was condemning all political violence instead, and b) he's just lost an election and it's a good a way as any to stand down gracefully.
The 350 million dollar question though is, who's next in line? My first thought was Cable, but he's knocking on a bit now and it must surely be more in line with the cool and froody LDs to regenerate into Matt Smith rather than Peter Capaldi.
I was soundly shouted down on a thread on here for pointing out his extreme evangelical Christian views where every word in the bible is 100% true brings him into major fundamental conflict with the liberal ethos.
I was right and he has now accepted this ( not that I was right but that the two are incompatible). You cannot hold the bigoted positions he does and claim to be a liberal
"“To be a political leader – especially of a progressive, liberal party in 2017 – and to live as a committed Christian, to hold faithfully to the Bible’s teaching, has felt impossible for me.”
You never know - I might even be able to vote for them again one day
I'd put a few quid on the recently re-elected Jo Swinson.Cable for LD leader?
Very well thought of and apparently very able - but badly tarnished by the coalition and a carpetbagger in that she is married to another MP in a constituency a long way away but claims they both live in the constituency they represent
You cannot hold the bigoted positions he does and claim to be a liberal
The thing is, tj, none of us would have known his personal, faith-based views if he hadn't have been challenged on them in interview. I believe (though I could be wrong) that he tried to keep his religious views out of the spotlight; he truly believed that it is possible to legislate as a liberal, even if it meant struggling with the seeming contradictions between his faith and politics, especially as it will have been precisely that faith that informed his liberalism.
to be fair neither of them can really claim to not live in the area they represent so it may well be true that its their "main " home.
I bet they spend their time together at westminster in the main - do they claim a house each there as well?
badly tarnished by the coalition
I've never heard of her, but IME "badly tarnished by the coalition" equates to "the mere the fact that they were in the coalition means they're all bastards, something something student fees." They were a minority voice picking their battles, it'll be interesting to see whether in five years everyone in NI turns on the DUP because they didn't abolish gay rights and abortion in the UK.
Doesn't mean that she is or isn't a shitehawk of course, point is that "tarnished" doesn't necessarily mean "tarnished for good reasons."
Aye the times when this country was the most religious, or indeed any country, always coincide with them being the most liberal of years . Its just not true.it will have been precisely that faith that informed his liberalism.
The reality is much of the Bible is deeply illiberal hence his struggle.
he truly believed that it is possible to legislate as a liberal, even if it meant struggling with the seeming contradictions between his faith and politics
The problem comes when they aren't reconcilable - which takes priority?
FWIW, from what I've seen it does seem like he's been mauled unfairly over this. that I've never really got the impression that his goddy side has got in the way of his political side and he's only even mentioned it when goaded into it.
tjagain - Member
Very well thought of and apparently very able - but badly tarnished by the coalition and a carpetbagger in that she is married to another MP in a constituency a long way away but claims they both live in the constituency they represent
It's beginning to look like soap opera or drama now ... 😯 😆
time to call foul and time on this continuing witch hunting. not a fan of Tims but hes clearly a comitted christian and in todays holier than thou politics that may cause him issues politically. clearly the DUP dont have issues with it but the right of freedom of speech and beliefs is been severeley restricted here. i dont believe in many things but i do strongly believe in the right of folks to have differing views from min.. as long as they dont force them down my throat at every opportunity and sadly today too many are willing to do just that.. good luck tim.. i hope you find peace.
It is unfortunate that he felt, in the end, he was unable to stay on as leader in spite of that entirely agreeable perspective.
Well others in the Lib Dems seem to have put pressure on Farron. What Farron said is amirable, he put aside personal beliefs for his role as an MP and party leader.
The bottom line is the Lib Dem position on on Brexit / EU was not a winner, in my constituency (previously Lib Dem till 2015) the (Leave campaigning) Tory was returned with a larger majority.
returned with a larger majority.
150?
Jamby has become a SWiss tony but its not a beautiful woman its brexit he fixates on
[quote=totalshell ]Tims but hes clearly a comitted christian and in todays holier than thou politics that may cause him issues politically.
You really mixed your metaphors there but yes it seems like there is a distrust , of the judgement, of the deeply religious
i do strongly believe in the right of folks to have differing views from min.. as long as they dont force them down my throat at every opportunity
Like say the right to die, compulsory acts of worship in school, forced to study RE Head of state is head of the church , being exempt from discrimination laws etc that sort of thing or something else?
Tim is entitled to believe anything he likes and we are entitled to judge the opinions our politicians hold
I've met Vince Cable twice and been singularly unimpressed on both occasions. Even David Cameron was more engaged/engaging during discussions.
but he went fairly under the radar for 2 years whereas UKIP as ever were everywhere on TV and not just Sky.
I am not sure he can be blamed for that.
The media havent exactly covered themselves with glory with regards to their political coverage.
cougar - tarnished with good reasons - they had an oportunbity to moderate the tories and blew it completely thus responsible for 5 years of tory government we did not want nor need.
They were complicit in some awful stuff and were duped.
He's a homophobe!!! Lynch the bugger.
Why are 'christians' so opposed to homosexuality anyway!?! They seem to be obsessed with it.
(The second point is a serious question)
Religious bigot fails to square his leadership of liberal values with his loathing of gay people.
Don't let the door hit you on the way out...
Its not witchhunting or bullying. If he was not an evangelical then I would agree private faith is fine. However when his 100% adherence to the bible leads him into illiberal and bigoted positions then its fair game
he vote for legalising discrimination on religious grounds, He vote to massively restrict abortion. He is on record as saying abortion is wrong and that homosexuality is a sin.
he tried to weasel out of this but the conflict was too much. Remember this is a man who believes every word in the bible is literally true.
Loddrick - cos it says in the bible homosexuality is a sin and its the duty of every believer to kill homosexuals
Loddrick - cos it says in the bible homosexuality is a sin and its the duty of every believer to kill homosexuals
Not sure if trolling, but that definitely isn't the case.
Loddrick - cos it says in the bible homosexuality is a sin and its the duty of every believer to kill homosexuals
What's your opinion of the Koran, then? Don't recall you being that vociferous in criticism.....
tjagain - Member
cougar - tarnished with good reasons - they had an oportunbity to moderate the tories and blew it completely thus responsible for 5 years of tory government we did not want nor need.They were complicit in some awful stuff and were duped.
Utter bollocks.
You need to do a great deal of reading rather than spouting rubbish that you've heard from others.
Leviticus 20:13 ?
Verse (Click for Chapter)
New International Version
"'If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
the koran is full of things i dont believe in or agree with
The bottom line is the Lib Dem position on on Brexit / EU was not a winner
The bottom line is that the LDs aren't going to win total control because irrespective of policies there's a large swathe of the electorate who will vote for [party] because they always have. It will take generations before the UK moves from what is essentially a two-party system for all practical purposes. The LDs could offer free solid gold houses for all and still not win outright.
In the recent GE they won 50% more seats than they held in 2015. Granted, that was from eight seats to twelve, but in UK politics terms that's a hell of a gain in two years. The only party with a higher percentage increase was Sinn Fein.
Compare and contrast our big two, Labour who had a 13% seat gain and the Tories who had a 4% seat loss. (I think, please peer review my GCSE maths.)
Not sure if trolling, but that definitely isn't the case.
...
What's your opinion of the Koran, then? Don't recall you being that vociferous in criticism.....
Unless I'm very much mistaken, TJ's point is that that's what Fundies believe rather than what TJ himself believes.
(Whether TF is a Fundie or not, I've no idea. I didn't know he had any religious views until the media started picking him apart over it.)
CaptainFlashheart - MemberWhat's your opinion of the Koran, then? Don't recall you being that vociferous in criticism.....
How many leaders of UK political parties are evangelical, fundamendalist muslims?
Not sure that matters. Would a Muslim politician (party leader or otherwise) have been grilled as Farron was?
Glad he is gone. Sorry, just not a fan of the ardently religious who have literal interpretations of their faith. Just smacks of lack of insight and a lack of an ability to adapt, innovative and rationalise. To believe what he appears to believe in the 21st century makes you the pariah and certainly not suitable for leading a modern mainstream secular and inclusive party.
LDs will disappear deeper into obscurity before they return as a meaningful third party. Counting the days.
CaptainFlashheart - MemberNot sure that matters.
It does matter when you're talking about the impact a party leader has. But just look at the "criticism" Sadiq Khan faced- could be wrong but I believe he's the most senior elected muslim in British history?
Hopefully he will soon be forgotten as another failed leader jumping ship, before the ship sinks.
Daffy - its not nonsense. Its what happened and yes I devour everything I can on politics from a number of sources including lib dem backers.
[quote=CaptainFlashheart ]Not sure that matters. Would a Muslim politician (party leadee or otherwise) have been grilled as Farron was?
I would assume they would be ; ask Zac cpt ask Zac.
there you go the express reporting on the BBC will that do ?
oldnpastit - Member
Loddrick - cos it says in the bible homosexuality is a sin and its the duty of every believer to kill homosexualsNot sure if trolling, but that definitely isn't the case.
Certainly is - Junkyard just quoted it. I have seen it in more extreme versions in other translations of the bible.
Hadn't seen/heard that interview before, thanks, Junky.
Still feel that Farron was unfairly grilled, mind you.
you need to do a lot more than hulr insults to negate the statementYou need to do a great deal of reading rather than spouting rubbish that you've heard from others
Everyone accepts they were tarnished by the coalition - remind us what the electorate did to them so its a wildly held view
Fell free to counter it
FWIW i think they get a hard time for it but the campaigning on no austerity and then enabling it and breaking their pledge meant they were judged ,rightly IMHO, as a big bunch of duplicitous principle free liars
i think he was in relation to to other prominent politicians with religious beliefs but i think it is fair game to grill them on it as it is Khan tbh because at some point, whatever their politics or religion, they will have some beliefs i fundamentally disagree with. I would like to know where this line is but yes it fell disproportionately on him.Still feel that Farron was unfairly grilled, mind you.
Cougar - farron is an evangelical and he has stated publicly "'Christianity is not a bit true. It's either wrong or utterly compellingly true"?
This is the evangelical position. that the bible is the word of god and 100% true
What's your opinion of the Koran, then? Don't recall you being that vociferous in criticism.....
Oh I'd be even more critical of that, but whenever that particular book is criticised, the banhammer seems to come down...
Everyone accepts they were tarnished by the coalition - remind us what the electorate did to them so its a wildly held viewFell free to counter it
FWIW i think they get a hard time for it but the campaigning on no austerity and then enabling it and breaking their pledge meant they were judged ,rightly IMHO, as a big bunch of duplicitous principle free liars
They were certainly tarnished. Whether they were fairly tarnished is another matter. I'm actually quite surprised at you here, JY.
They had a handful of seats compared to the Tories couple of hundred. They were a small fish in a big pond and had to choose their battles, they couldn't fight everything. Whether they chose those battles wisely is a matter of debate, as is how wise it was to enter the coalition in the first place. Perhaps they sought to temper the Tories from within; either way, it's certainly pretty irrefutable outside of Ninfanworld that the Tories were subsequently a bigger monster without then.
Oh I'd be even more critical of that, but whenever that particular book is criticised, the banhammer seems to come down...
Do you need your own #fact hashtag too?
Why are 'christians' so opposed to homosexuality anyway!?! They seem to be obsessed with it.
Explicitly mentioned in the bible as an "abomination" as such more serious than other sins. Given sex is to be between a married man and woman for the purpose of conception then homosexuality and gay sex clearly doesn't qualify. In 40 years of going to Church, Sunday School etc I have never ever heard any Christian suggesting homosexuals should be put to death. In fact homosexuality itself isn't really a big topic, recognising gay marriage as a marriage was more controversial with major demonstrations (500,000 plus) especially in France
Isn't that mostly OT stuff which most modern Christians handwave as an inconvenience these days (Creationists and other Fundies aside)?
I voted Lib Dem for 3 decades (ex 97) and donated to the party. They lost their way totally in the coalition with Clegg doing the opposite of what he said (no student fee increase, AV a "grubby little compromise") - the Party lost all credibility. The pro Europe thing has been a total flop
Cougar - farron is an evangelical and he has stated publicly "'Christianity is not a bit true. It's either wrong or utterly compellingly true"?
I wasn't aware of that, ta. TBH, I've argued similarly in the past when we've discussed "allegories" and cherry-picking. It's a dichotomy, at least his view there is logically consistent (even if his conclusion is less so).
Aside, I remember my first RE lesson at high school, our teacher said "either Jesus was who he said he was, or he was the greatest con artist who ever lived."
He is an evangelical. If you don't understand what that is and what that means, you won't see how different that is from pragmatic C of E or RC belief. Incompatible with being Liberal leader.
But again, look how Blair's religious certainty bled into unwarranted political certainty and the results...
I'm glad he's gone. He's the reason I didn't vote LIb dem.
Who's Tim Farron?
Very well thought of and apparently very able - but badly tarnished by the coalition and a carpetbagger in that she is married to another MP in a constituency a long way away but claims they both live in the constituency they represent
Seems a little unfair to call her a carpet bagger. (1) Duncan Hames lost his seat at the election so there is nothing to stop them both living in East Dumbartonshire if they chose to; (2) the term Carpet Bagger really refers to someone who has no connection with the seat whatsoever (but gets elected anyway as a safe seat). Jo was born and brought up in East Dumbartonshire; (3) Her husband lived in his constituency (and was a local councillor) for a number of years before getting elected (which was before they got married). Should she have resigned her seat as soon as she got married - like a dutiful 1950's wife? At no time have both been elected since they got married (although they both stood in 2015).
As far as I know all the names being suggested were ministers in the Coallition, so I don't see how that hinders her.
Great, another bloody election (albeit the libdem leadership) what is wrong with them all? No bloody staying power, referendums x2, leadership elections, general elections after 2 years???
Just bloody knuckle down you lot!
poly - IIRC an MP has to live in the seat they represent although this is often merely symbolic but how a married couple can claim to live hundreds of miles apart so they can both live in their own constituencies is more than a bit odd. I did not know she was born in the area tho nor that they didn't both serve at once tho I thought they did. so thanks for that
many politicians only pay lip service to the living in the constituency but this arrangement always appeared a bit dishonest to me
However she is highly thought of and capable.
He was becoming (had become) more of a story in the media than the policies he was trying to represent.
Every article, every interview; wanted to know about his views on homosexuality. I imagine it was probably becoming a talking point in LibDem HQ....
Does even know what irony is?I seem to be the subject of suspicion because of what I believe and who my faith is in.In which case we are kidding ourselves if we think we yet live in a tolerant, liberal society.
"either Jesus was who he said he was, or he was the greatest con artist who ever lived."
Or someone with mental issues and delusions of grandeur based on brainwashing in a primitive belief system.
Or an unlikely central figure in a work of fiction. Bit like Noddy or Batman...
Maybot s a committed Christian, but for her falling back on conservative Christian values would be "on form" although I do think she should have come under greater scrutiny for those beliefs and where they guided her.
Faron is the only one I can recall getting this level of scrutiny for being a Christian, but I do not think it was unfair against him, due to the natural conflict between liberalism and his faith.
Of course Blair was mocked for his faith later in his career, but he did seem to have a touch of the "David Ike's" about him, seeming to believe he was doing gods work bombing the shit out of the Middle East.
Mr Woppit - Member
Religious bigot fails to square his leadership of liberal values with his loathing of gay people.Don't let the door hit you on the way out...
Loathing of gay people? That must be why he consistently voted in favour of gay marriage and gay rights then.
Didn't he avoid most of those votes rather than supporting them? Iirc his voting record does not indicate support for LGBT rights but that he protected his own career by avoiding publicaly opossing them.
No they don't even have to live in the country http://www.parliament.uk/about/faqs/house-of-commons-faqs/members-faq-page2/#jump-link-14 certainly (at least) one of the candidates in my constituency didn't - interestingly that was the fact that made my wife's mind up.poly - IIRC an MP has to live in the seat they represent
Bearing in mind that they both spend 1/2 their "working" lives in Westminster its not as odd as it seems. Plenty of people work offshore or overseas for protracted periods, and indeed people I know who "live" somewhere very different from where the "work" - lodging there for 4 nights a week....but how a married couple can claim to live hundreds of miles apart so they can both live in their own constituencies is more than a bit odd.
They did both serve at once - I perhaps fumbled the wording I was trying to convey. Jo was an MP 2005-2015. Her now husband was elected in 2010-2015. However they didn't get married until 2011 so unless getting married should trigger a by-election. He didn't stand in 2017 so I am sure their domestic arrangements are somewhat simpler! [and I stand corrected because I previously implied he just lost his seat - but it was 2015]. Your criticism MIGHT have been valid if they had both been elected in 2015, in fact neither were.nor that they didn't both serve at once tho I thought they did.
There could be argument that having a personal belief system at odds with his politics makes him a very good politician - in having to de-invest himself from the liberal ideas he promotes means we can see he is being entirely selfless and doing it for others, even to his own detriment.
Kind of like Kant's idea that good acts only come from duty.
Maybot s a committed Christian
Saying it and acting it are 2 different things. I don't see her being very christian in her approach and attitude.
I think most tories would struggle to act in a Christian way as their priorities are skewed towards wealth and the wealthy.
I agree completely, I think there is little in common with the caring side of Christianity and conserve values, but it's practioners seem to believe their own brand of greed and hatred comes from Christian values.
Evangelical - I notice people here are using it when they really mean fundamentalist. Evangelical is really about spreading the word - in IT some use it as a title for people who encourage people to use a technology they are interested in.
As for the bible and homosexuality - its not mentioned in the New Testament which is what guides most Christians, love of all people is the prime rule here. Those Christians who do think homosexuality is wrong tend to take the view 'Hate the sin, love the sinner'. Obviously there is still the idea that it is a sin for many but no greater than any other sin and we all sin - obviously the idea that it is a sin is still an issue however churches in the UK are moving to pretty much complete acceptance of homosexuals, a number of vicars are openly gay, but they are meant to stay celibate.