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He got Brexit done, he’s served his purpose
Do people STILL believe this crap FFS, no he hasn’t – he’s merely pushed the UK off the cliff.
I think you misunderstood the point of Brexit. It's bin dun, even if it isn't what anyone thought they were voting for
I think you misunderstood the point of Brexit. It’s bin dun, even if it isn’t what anyone thought they were voting for
Nope, still not "bin dun".
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/less-than-a-month-until-full-customs-controls-are-introduced
Brexit is done, Boris won the vote, that's what he was bought in to do. What happens next no one in the Tory party cares as long as they make money out of it.
Right now there will be lots of meetings in Tory land trying to work out if Boris is still a vote winner or if its time to replace. Ultimately it probably doesn't matter given the opposition parties we have but as said above its nice to watch him squirm a bit.
"Disgraced former prime minister" has a nice ring to it.
Is lying on an FOI request a criminal offence?
Yes. s77(1) makes it an offence to intentionally alter or conceal information that should have been disclosed. BUT (1) its a £5000 fine maximum and (2) Proceedings need the consent of the DPP - so combined with the need to show intent rather than incompetence I wouldn't hold your breath on it.
Nope, still not “bin dun”.
incidental trivia.
Brexit was about blue passports, sticking it to that nasty Frenchman, and something something the NHS. Anything else is just the EU throwing a tantrum because they're jealous of our sunlit uplands.
he’s been sacked from two jobs so far for lying (should’ve been more)
I'm surprised Starmer doesn't make more of this at PMQ. I'd be dropping in this nugget every week.
Sadly, calling him the "Rt. Hon Lying Philanderer", whilst accurate and legally proven, is not parliamentary (as I understand it).
Might be good for someone to try it once and then ask which bits were untrue, the "Lying..." part or the "honorable" part.
all I was pointing out was that what was included in the Electoral Commission report is entirely consistent with the set of facts presented to Lord Geidt.
Really? really? You believe that? the most cursory glance at the facts shows that not to be true
JOhnson is now known to have lied to Geidt about the source of the funding
Asked to explain the discrepancy between the Geidt report (pdf), which says Johnson told him he did not know Lord Brownlow had paid the flat refurbishment bills until “immediately prior to media reports in February 2021”, and the Electoral Commission report, which said that on 29 November 2020 Johnson messaged Brownlow via WhatsApp “asking him to authorise further, at that stage unspecified, refurbishment works”, the spokesman implied the WhatsApp conversation did not cover the full detail of how the money was being paid, and that this was why lying was not involved.
aye right
The criminal offense committed is the person responsible in the tory party not declaring the money. thats why the fine - its a criminal sanction for deliberately breaking the law.
I’m not sure why anyone should be surprised, however this pans out you can be completely certain that there will still be a Tory prime minister, even if it isn’t Johnson. And more than likely one which pleases the Daily Mail comment writers even more.
The Tories have a huge majority, if Johnson doesn’t last until the next general election the next PM will not be Labour.
I dunno, If Boris clings on to power for too much longer it's certainly going to damage his successor's chances at the next election.
SKS and Co. will be able to point to a growing list of lies and corruption to try and nudge those Red wall voters back their way, especially if some of it is relatively recent. I had thought he could hang on for longer, but now I think the party will recognise he has to be out sooner.
That current majority is built on the various lies of Brexit (which is allegedly "done") and "levelling up" which seems in short supply.
His Back-benchers are getting rowdy because the Tory brand is now too tied up with Boris, and those that voted for him (and not so much for the party) are perhaps not as convinced as they were back in 2019. What are the Tories going to sell at the next GE? and who is going to front the campaign?
the RW press have turned on Boris now, their patience is gone and there are doubtless some juicy stories they've had to sit on that they'd like to capitalise on, if He's not gone by Feb'22 expect some "revelations".
The question really is who do Rupert and the Barclay Bro's give the nod to next?
I reckon (DM reader's choice?) Truss would be beatable for an SKS led Labour, Sunak would probably be a tougher ask (IMO)...
But for any future Tory leader, the longer Boris is in No.10 the harder their task becomes.
But for any future Tory leader, the longer Boris is in No.10 the harder their task becomes.
I agree and I think and I hope he will stay on clinging by his fingernails and my judgement of the man he will do so.
But for any future Tory leader, the longer Boris is in No.10 the harder their task becomes.
I dont know about that. Having him around for a bit longer means he can be blamed for the ongoing covid and brexit mess with a brave new hero to step in and take the credit for any of the good bits and blame him for the bad a year or two before the election.
Take over now and they are a shedload of landmines hanging around.
While the prospect of seeing Johnson get his comeuppance is a tantalising one I can't help but remember that there was a lot of people around these parts who this time last year were convinced that he'd be out of number 10 by the spring. The current crop of controversies may bring him down but seeing as comparisons to the Major government are quite popular at the moment remember that it managed to hang on all the way to the '97 election, despite its many faults and a much smaller majority.
I can't say I won't take some satisfaction from seeing Johnson stumbling out of number 10 for the last time (I'll get some satisfaction from that even if it ends up being tempered by the fact that someone worse is taking over), but I'm not going to expect it to happen until it actually happens.
The current crop of controversies may bring him down but seeing as comparisons to the Major government are quite popular at the moment remember that it managed to hang on all the way to the ’97 election, despite its many faults and a much smaller majority.
this is the ideal scenario for me - Johnson continues on and the stench increases and the tories are out for a generation
Blair won in 97 not because he made labour electable but because Major made the tories unelectable.
Johnsons arrogance means he cannot admit to himself he has ever done anything wrong. thus I think he will continue as long as he can. He will never resign. He will need the thatcher treatment
I dont know about that. Having him around for a bit longer means he can be blamed for the ongoing covid and brexit mess with a brave new hero to step in and take the credit for any of the good bits and blame him for the bad a year or two before the election.
Take over now and they are a shedload of landmines hanging around.
It's a balancing act really, the longer he's there the more damage it does to the tory reputation as a whole. it will take time once he's been moved on to disentangle conservatism and "Johnsonism" in the public's minds and establish a new leader/cabinet.
Like I said, until a couple of weeks ago I thought he could hang on in there for a while yet and act as a bit of a hate sponge. But now there's more open hostility from within the parliamentary party, and the cabinet faces seem less keen to show up in public/do interviews.
They all know which way the wind is blowing and recognise the need to distance themselves from Bozza.
He might bluff it out yet, but He's looking les and less like an election winner and handing the opposition more ammunition with every day that passes.
Carrie Cranking out another sprog doesn't look like it's going to buy him much respite either TBH...
So glad we took the Strong and Stable option.
I'd much rather the rampant corruption around covid contracts was the straw that broke the camel's back, but if it has to be an illicit piss-up breaking social distancing rules then so be it. Just so long as it does break that crooked, mangy camel's back.
I don't give a **** about the 'how' any more. So long as we are rid of that fat, useless, lying ****.
We can worry about dealing with whatever crook/dimwit/shitbag they get in later.
HOw long now before Carrie ditches him?
Not the other way round? She can’t be much use to him for a bit now, assuming she doesn’t want to get pregnant again immediately…
if it has to be an illicit piss-up breaking social distancing rules then so be it
It's not just the parties... it's also the fact that he thought that everyone should accept his word that there was no party, and move on... even though he knew that everyone knew that he was lying. The idea that the lie would be accepted as the end of it... not believed, or accepted as truthful, but that everyone would just take the lie for what it is, and move on anyway. He's called this one wrong. And even his political allies, that have been happy for him to lie before, will now start to think that perhaps he can no longer operate in that "we all know this isn't true, but onwards to power and glory" unreality shield he created around himself and his party with his bluster and charm. They never thought he was honest, but they did think he had the magic to get away with being dishonest. The cracks are getting wider.
Not the other way round?
He's too spineless for that. He'll just shag around and probably father a few more until either a better model emerges or Carrie has had enough.
Boris is currently in the pincer between his backbenchers outraged about fresh Covid restrictions, and a steady trickle of allegations of corruption and hypocrisy. And I, for one, am loving it.
The would-be PMs would much rather he survived into the spring, though. Wouldn't be surprised if they appoint an interim PM because having a leadership contest would be a 'distraction' from Covid etc, and then fight over it when things are looking better.
Raab is deputy PM, and has nothing to lose really from taking the top job on a temporary basis. He might even hope that if he performs spectacularly (I know), he might have some kind of Lazarus-like uplift in his popularity with the members.
Really? really? You believe that? the most cursory glance at the facts shows that not to be true
JOhnson is now known to have lied to Geidt about the source of the funding
It doesn't matter what we believe. It's perfectly plausible that he requested funds from the person he thought was going to be running the trust to pay for the refurb but didn't know that the funds would come directly from that person. It seems unlikely he would even care about the actual source of the funds as long as he got them.
Stop calling the lying pr**k 'Boris'.
It makes it sound like he's your mate, and he most definitely is not that.
HOw long now before Carrie ditches him?
Well after he expressed that he had "buyer's remorse" about his new wife to a bunch of journalists at a dinner not long before the Patterson vote, I honestly wouldn't want to bet,
Stop calling the lying pr**k ‘Boris’.
It makes it sound like he’s your mate, and he most definitely is not that.
I don't buy this. Not least because I don't have any mates called Boris, but moreover I don't think its the problem people who say this think it is (1) I wouldn't trust any of my mates to run the country either; (2) If he had respect I'd probably call him by his proper name; (3) its a pantomime character he plays to - some people think acknowledging that character is playing along with him and legitimising it, I'd say the opposite the more of a ridiculous "celeb style bufoon" he appears to be the less legit he seems as PM. To me at least. I very much doubt the nomenclature has any impact on the willingness of people to vote for him or accept his actions one way or the other.
It’s perfectly plausible that he requested funds from the person he thought was going to be running the trust to pay for the refurb but didn’t know that the funds would come directly from that person.
do you really believe that? I have a nice bridge to sell you.
been remorseless reporting on the parties on Sky News.
Stop calling the lying pr**k ‘Boris’.
I agree with this. Like "call me dave" its all part of the act to make him seem one of us and everytime people do it it reinforces the image he wants
would you refer to Starmer as Keir? Sturgeon as Nichola? Truss as Liz?
do you really believe that? I have a nice bridge to sell you.
I don't but it's certainly plausible which is all that matters unfortunately. I don't think he'd actually care at all where the funds came from. Actually the more it think about it it seems like the sort of detail he would just ignore. Incompetence has perks. If Starmer had done the same I'd be certain he was lying.
Its not remotely plausible. He messaged the chap.asking for money, lied to geidt about the message and lied to the country.
do you really believe that? I have a nice bridge to sell you.
No-one really believes it. The point is that he will possibly be able to construct some kind of tenuous way to deny wrongdoing.
Talking of which:
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/did-the-downing-street-party-break-the-law
"Plausible deniability" needs to be plausible. they have already tried this and its failed " because Johnson did not know the detail of where the money comes from it was not a lie"
Problem for him is he lied about the Whatsapp message itself
Stop calling the lying pr**k ‘Boris’.
It makes it sound like he’s your mate, and he most definitely is not that.
Apparently he first started to call himself Boris when he was at Eton, that was when he developed this bumbling confused and cuddly persona which we all know and love.
Incidentally I find it astonishing how people seem so confused with regards to Johnson and his personality. A couple pages back several posters were claiming that Johnson couldn't care less what people think. In contrast I don't know of any UK politician that cares more about what people think than Johnson.
Johnson is a showman and an attention-seeker. I have never heard of attention-seeker who did not want to be loved, or a showman that didn't want to be liked by his target audience.
Johnson appears to share several characteristics with Donald Trump. Apart from the gorgeous blonde hair, and the endless compulsion to lie, they are both narcissists who have an insatiable need to be liked.
It’s perfectly plausible that he requested funds from the person he thought was going to be running the trust to pay for the refurb but didn’t know that the funds would come directly from that person
In contrast I don’t know of any UK politician that cares more about what people think than Johnson.
Bang on! John Crace, the political sketch writer in the Guardian has Johnson absolutely nailed. He always refers to his desperate insecurity and need for approval. But what this leads to is him just telling everyone what they want to hear, even if it completely contradicts the last conversation he had, where he told someone with the opposite opinion exactly what they wanted to hear
This also explains his hiding in fridges and going AWOL at times of crisis as he just can’t cope with being the bearer of bad news. He’s the good times booster boy. A one trick pony.
Note how he drops gags at the most inopportune times, where what’s needed is gravitas. It’s his default. He can’t help himself. The worst example being rambling on about Peppa Pig to the CBI when what they were looking for was a long term economic strategy. Something he clearly hasn’t the first clue about, and little or no interest
He’s a tired end of the pier panto act
Raab is deputy PM, and has nothing to lose really from taking the top job on a temporary basis.
The man who didn't want to be bothered on his beach holiday while Kabul was on fire and our former loyal allies were being hunted in the streets, and who took a day to realise he couldn't open a spreadsheet.
Dominic Raab is Patrick Bateman
A full blown psychopath to Johnson’s sociopath
That’s why he always looks like he’s just been interrupted while cutting a body up in his bath. He probably has.
The man who didn’t want to be bothered on his beach holiday while Kabul was on fire and our former loyal allies were being hunted in the streets, and who took a day to realise he couldn’t open a spreadsheet.
We are talking about the same group of arseholes that made him Foreign Secretary in the first place, not a rational decision made by normal folk on the basis of his talent and achievements.
Yes Johnson wants to be loved but because of his personality flaws rather than doing things to be liked he lies he has done them or as Binners points out simply tells people what he thinks they want to hear
Howeverin his actions he does not care one bit about what they mean to people and what damage it does
so both are true - he wants to be loved but does not care about the consequences of his actions
Yes caring about people and wanting to be liked aren't the same thing, I'm not sure anyone suggested that it was.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-59600519
Three people fined for parties on same day as No 10 event
NEW: Polling for @MirrorPolitics has Labour lead up to 6 points
A couple more polls like that ands its PM Liz. The only figures the Tory party cares about
The spontaneous drinks after work defence is looking rather weak
https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1469017828707688452?t=bC8bxbE24zjFeiVk6PvdpQ&s=19
It’s perfectly plausible that he requested funds from the person he thought was going to be running the trust to pay for the refurb but didn’t know that the funds would come directly from that person.
It's not only plausible, it is pretty close to what appears to have happened, except he wasn't requesting funds but further work.
EC Report
24 September 2020: at a meeting of the group working on setting up the Downing Street Trust, including Cabinet Office and No 10 Downing Street officials and Lord Brownlow, it was resolved that no more works were to be commissioned for the residence without prior authorisation by Lord Brownlow.
The PM then whatsapped him to get authorisation for further works, maybe at the behest of his fiancee
29 November 2020: the Prime Minister messaged Lord Brownlow via WhatsApp asking him to authorise further, at that stage unspecified, refurbishment works on the residence. Lord Brownlow agreed to do so, and also explained that the proposed trust had not yet been set up but that he knew where the funding was coming from.
This is completely consistent with what it says in the Geidt report.
It really is not . would you like to buy a bridge? I have a nice one for sale
But only if you believe that Johnson didn't know that Brownlow was going to donate the funds for renovation. Given that Brownlow has donated over £700,000 to to Tories, and given money to both Cameron's wife to bail out her company and May campaigns in the past, it would take a special sort of willing suspension of disbelief that Johnson and Brownlow didn't understand each other's position in all this.
Why did Geidt not know about the whatsapp messages?
It really is not
Sadly it is. However much you hope this is what finally takes him down there's no definitive proof he knew who was paying or even cared. With the current majority the Tories don't care how it looks. Polls only mater before general elections. He's in the job until he resigns, or when they want to roll out the electoral bribes to boost a new leader 12 months before the next election.
Are you sure about that bridge?
I agree its an attempt at plausible deniability but its failed at the basic hurdle of being plausible therefore it just adds to the impression of corruption and incompetence which does rsonate withthe public at large. It slowly shifts the perception of him
this one thing will not bring him down but its yet another drip of damage and there is a limit to how much damage that can besustained and once the public mood has shifted it never comes back.
You also forgot the tory MPs can oust him which would be my bet.
Isn’t the number of letters they need to send to the 1922 Ctte linked to the number of seats they hold? So more are needed to be sent than were for May?
he wasn’t requesting funds but further work
Did he expect the work to be free?
Isn’t the number of letters they need to send to the 1922 Ctte linked to the number of seats they hold? S
Yes 54? Needed to May's 45ish
Which is quite a lot really, tbh I'm still not convinced the Tories won't hang on to North Shropshire, which will save his skin
Did he expect the work to be free?
Everything is free in Borisworld, isn’t it?
Served up on a silver platter with no questions asked
It might just cut the mustard as a tenuous "all it has to be is mathematically possible" worming-his-way-out-of-it, but I don't think anyone in the real world is buying that "I didn't know" bullshit. Hopefully people see it instead as cowardly mealy-mouthed weaseling out.
Like "I did not have sex with that woman".
once the public mood has shifted it never comes back.
Agreed. But don't confuse the mood on this thread with public opinion.
Political threads on STW are seriously out of step with public opinion.
According to Kimbers earlier post a third of voters would vote Tory if there was a general election tomorrow. The last time I saw a self-confessed Johnson supporter on this thread was many months ago.
Based on the mood on STW the Tories would not win one single seat next general election.
But don’t confuse the mood on this thread with public opinion.
No one is.
I know polls can be well off, but none of the recent ones look good for Johnson. And that polling isn’t reserved to people with STW accounts.
too true Ernie but given even the most right wing papers are gunning for him which means BBC and ITV news will also feature it prominently and that there is clearly more to come yet and the poll someone posted above.
Maybe I am being over hopeful but it really feels like the end of the Major government to me. the same sense of spiraling out of control and a hapless man no longer in charge of his party
Most Britons are taking the allegations very seriously: 69% of respondents say the Metropolitan Police should investigate the Christmas Party held in Downing Street last year. A majority of both 2019 Conservative voters (56%) and 2019 Labour voters (81%) agree that the party should be investigated. Conversely, a fifth (20%) of Britons do not believe the Metropolitan Police should investigate, a position held by 33% of Conservative voters.
Further, 63% believe the Prime Minister should resign if it is confirmed that the Christmas Party took place at a time when the Government had issued coronavirus restrictions which forbade such gatherings. In addition to 81% of Labour voters, a plurality (46%) of Conservative voters, too, think that Boris Johnson should resign in this situation.
Most of the constituencies in the south east would vote for a dog turd in a flaming paper bag if it had a Tory rosette on it.
The rest of the country appears to be full of plenty of people still (unbelievably IMHO) buying his panto act.
Politics is now what some people have been saying it is for a while now showbiz for ugly people
Time will tell TJ. I remain unsure of the long term fallout from these allegations. I remember people getting very excited on this thread at the time of wallpapergate, the long term damage was not significant.
Obviously people want to believe that this time it's different, I'm not so sure that it's that different.
Personally I'm not too bothered whether there were Christmas parties at Downing Street last year or not. I suspected that even if I'm in a minority it's not a tiny minority.
Edit : Btw I have no doubt that some people will say that stuff like Christmas parties in Downing Street bothers them when asked by pollsters because they think that is the correct answer. But really really bother them to the point of changing the way they will vote? Less likely imo.
binners
Full Member
Most of the constituencies in the south east would vote for a dog turd in a flaming paper bag if it had a Tory rosette on it.
Yep, I'm in one such place which saddens me. Food banks, homelessness and all the problems other areas have but it's a Tory stronghold. I despair.
Unfortunately a good percentage of the popululous here are in the "they are all as bad as one another" camp which I think hits Labours vote more.
Possibly.
But only if you believe that Johnson didn’t know that Brownlow was going to donate the funds for renovation.
As I said before what you or I believe is irrelevant, Geidt looked into it and was satisified. Absent anything to contradict his report, it will fizzle out. The Press and the Labour got excited because they thought the EC contradicts the Geidt report, it doesn't.
Er… “wallpapergate” has come back only today to feed into the negative news for Johnson.
These things have a tendency to pile up… next time there is a “one rule for us, another for them” story, or implausible stories follow bare face lies when they get found out, this stuff about xmas parties will come back into conversations again… just like people are talking about eye tests and Barnard Castle this week (in the ‘real’ world, not in the media or on this forum).
It does clearly Mefty
He lied to Geidt about the whatsapp messages. the EC found this lie. Thats a contradiction on a basic level and shows JOhnson once again lied
Based on the mood on STW the Tories would not win one single seat next general election.
I wouldn't be surprised to see a wipeout in Scotland. 🙂 Unless of course we have another tory / labour anti SNP pact
Geidt looked into it and was satisified.
Lord Geidt not so satisfied it seems
https://twitter.com/JuliaHB1/status/1469065079853404165?t=UUvuOEcOv6XgOgpKjLOJVQ&s=19
Lord Geidt not so satisfied it seems
Clearly fake news. Mefty has announced the facts and just as is the case with Johnson that should be sufficient. Lets not get into boring details which might contradict them.
Boris Johnson's press chief spoke at No 10 party last year
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-59601447
Sword at the ready I'm guessing.
Obviously people want to believe that this time it’s different, I’m not so sure that it’s that different.
Neither am I, the greater damage is likely to be to his standing with his MPs but again not convinced it will be terminal.
Personally I’m not too bothered whether there were Christmas parties at Downing Street last year or not. I suspected that even if I’m in a minority it’s not a tiny minority.
I am not sure many would, which is why it would be better to have come clean, but hindsight is wonderful and as shown in the video it is not an easy message to come up with. The DofE's approach did seem pretty sensible.
Cameron’s wife to bail out her company
It was an investment round.
If Geidt quits Johnson will have to n watch his back
https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1469066373934559235?t=InIJkKUmW5AFhoZHD2GZzg&s=19
Also Johnson is supposed to have said he paid back £100 000 used for refurbishments. given he has complained of poverty where did that money come from? This is another bit awaiting discovery.
Er… “wallpapergate” has come back only today to feed into the negative news for Johnson.
I'm not sure that anyone is suggesting that this hasn't been a bad week for Johnson. The question is how bad and how lasting? According to this thread calamitous and possibly marking the end of his premiership.
And in the real world? No one will know for a few weeks but certainly a bad week although the long-term consequences are very far from certain.
Remember Tony Blair still managed to win a general election after no weapons of mass destruction were found and being responsible for the greatest foreign policy blunder and ill thought out planning of modern time. I'm not sure how Christmas parties in Downing Street stack up against that.
Clearly fake news. Mefty has announced the facts and just as is the case with Johnson that should be sufficient. Lets not get into boring details which might contradict them.
No, that would change things significantly, interesting to see what happens.