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Getting the MET involved helps Johnson.
They'll investigate for months and then decide either that there isn't enough evidence to prosecute, or that it would not be in the public interest.
If Starmer calls a VONC in the mean time, the Tory's will accuse him of attempting to influence the investigation.
piha
If labour call a VONC its in the tory government and is a vote of all MPS. There is no rule that you cannot do it again for a year. You can have one every day if you want
The tory party can hold a VONC in Johnson as the leader of the party. Thats an internal tory party vote and that has the rule that he would be safe for a year
But you are right in that its pointless posturing. It would fail and boost Johnson significantly. You only call a VONC if you have a decent chance of winning or you want to force a small party in a coalition into a difficult corner.
All thanks to the populist, Brexit voting, red wall constituents that delivered such as resounding margin of victory in the last G.E.
Let's not play the blame game. You could just as easily say the same about the rich selfish masses in the south who've been voting the Tories in for years and ultimately caused all the issues that led to the red wall votes.
The **** going to get away with it isn’t he?
The way things are playing out sound like a conspiracy theorist’s fever dream…
On top of the conveniently timed MET investigation and the wall to wall new speak being put out by the government, the new criminal justice will arrive just in time to criminalise any entirely justified demonstrations (which might possibly be noisy or cause offence).
Has JHJ got a job in the Cabinet Office?
The House of Commons and the Speaker of the House have proved entirely ineffective in holding the lies to account. The honourable thing for the Labour Party, SNP etc to do would be to accuse Boris in plain English of being a serial liar. Once every opposition MP has been named and removed from the chamber it might show what a tin pot system we currently have.
But you are right in that its pointless posturing.
It’s really not. It shows they’re doing everything in their power to remove him, it would bind Tory MPs to Johnson’s fate and prevent them from separating themselves from him, and more than anything else signals to the public that they should be the judges via a general election. If they do nothing labour are in danger of looking like a useless and ineffective opposition. People will say they are weak and useless because they couldn’t get rid of the most useless and corrupt PM in living memory.
Presumably the Met (let's not lump all forces in with this farce) will be investigating potential wrongdoing from which prosecutions may come. (yes i know they won't but...)
That being the case interviews will presumably be official, so under caution. Any lies or deliberatly misleadin information will be an offence.
Let’s not play the blame game. You could just as easily say the same about the rich selfish masses in the south who’ve been voting the Tories in for years and ultimately caused all the issues that led to the red wall votes.
It is very much the Red Wall voters that have delivered this majority, Bozza isn't a true tory, he's a shameless populist that doesn't do detail and the Red Wall lapped it up. Does anyone of the Red Wall really believe Bozza will deliver? Bozza has played his hand exceptionally well, he has delivered a thumping tory majority, greatly reduced the influence of the irksome pro-European MPs of the tory Party and delivered the vaccine (all single handedly it would appear if some of the comments from his devout followers are to be believed).
The voters in the southern Shires did deliver the tory majorities of the past but the tories can no longer rely on their votes, especially as many of those tory voters get older & older. Many of the voters in the Shires see through Bozza and his populist rhetoric, look at the recent by-elections.
If labour call a VONC its in the tory government and is a vote of all MPS. There is no rule that you cannot do it again for a year. You can have one every day if you want
TJ - you are correct but with his 80 seat majority, Bozza is safe.
The tories are drunk on power and they will do anything to maintain their grip on No 10. The last thing they want to do is lose their biggest vote winner but they do have some repair work to do.
It would strengthen Johnsons position by forcing MPs to get behind him and make it much harder for them to remove him because even for tories to support a Johnsons goverment in a VONC makes it too much of a obvious hypocritical stance to then oust him in an internal VONC
Johnson could then continually claim he has the support of the HOC behind him.
Calling a VONC that you will lose heavily merely strengthens the party in power, binds them together and makes the party calling it look weak and foolish
But the converse might be that, because it binds them to Boris, they all go down when he eventually sinks the ship...?
It’s really not. It shows they’re doing everything in their power to remove him, it would bind Tory MPs to Johnson’s fate
It really is.
The only people that can rid us of the hapless Bozza is Bozza or his own Party. Their majority is just far too big. I think the only real thing SKS/Labour can do is let Bozza destroy his own Premiership and highlight his shortcomings. Time will tell though.....
Johnson would absolutely walk a VONC if it was called by the labour party at the moment. Any disgruntlement with backbench MPs would evaporate once the whips and their own constituency associations got on to them.
He'd then use his bolstered position by declaring it a ringing endorsement of his premiership and immediately sell off the BBC, abolish all workers rights, start a war with France and god knows what else
Starmer would have to be mental to call for one. Why start a war you know that you'll lose?
I'm afraid the only people who can rid us of the flytipped sofa at the moment are those sat behind him. And they'll only do that of their own accord
they all go down when he eventually sinks the ship…?
Indeed. There’s a bigger picture beyond getting rid of Boris, which is beating his successor in a GE. To do that they need to ensure the shit also sticks to Sunak/Truss/Hunt/whoever.
The public are being made very aware that it is Tory MPs that keep Johnson in his post. They are bound to him if they don’t speak out against him, and call for him to go. There is no need for a parliamentary VONC to “bind Tory MPs to Johnson”.
Johnson would absolutely walk a VONC
Of course he would, that’s the whole point. See above. Johnson is already finished, labour need to be looking to what comes next.
It is very much the Red Wall voters that have delivered this majority
I really don't agree with that. There's not much red, (or any other colour) down south on this map. Sure, the red wall made a difference to the size of the majority, but the traditional Tory heartlands are pretty solid/reliable below the midlands.
The biggest issue with the MET investigating is that we might get a few low ranking civil servants charged but can you really see a sitting PM being charged for this sort of thing, I can't. It's politicising the MET again. Cressida really is a Dick.
An interesting take on it from Mays former chief of staff. Needs the whole thread but he thinks its very damaging
https://twitter.com/GavinBarwell/status/1485971945086668803?s=20
Guardian reporting that the Met police are quite happy for the Gray report to be published this week, its a govt. decision to delay it.
jhinwxm
Free MemberThe Sue Gray report will be a whitewash. Waste of time, as are most things of this nature where corrupt politicians etc are involved. Nothing genuine or sincere ever comes out of government these days.
I'm not so sure... If the report really was going to be a whitewash, I don't think they'd have pulled this trick with the Met investigation to kick it down the road. You don't delay it if it's the outcome you want, you get it out fast and say "completely exonerated" and "it was all just Labour playing politics"
There’s not much red, (or any other colour) down south on this map.
It's not a great map for showing where the red is. Better to split by constituency or population.
There is a southern bias but it's actually more of rural/urban split if anything
I wonder if this will convince enough of the back-bencher MP's who were waiting on publication of the Grey report to chuck a 1922 letter in now.
edit - those modified maps make it look even less like the North is to blame for a Tory government to my eye! Interesting views though, like those, thanks.
There is a southern bias but it’s actually more of rural/urban split if anything
I was going to say the same thing. The big English and Welsh cities are all heavily Labour.
…………very like the US dem/rep split then.
If delaying the report is a political decision rather than necessitated by the police enquiry, there’s no way he will get away with it. If as many Tories as we understand are waiting for the report before deciding on his fate, that’s a big fat guilty indicator.
I guess it depends how heavily that gets reported, if the public aren't generally aware then it might not make a difference. I'd hope that Labour pick up on this and ask for the release of the report. If I was in a conservative constituency I'd email my MP saying they should ask for it to be released
edit. if framed properly I think the decision to withhold the report could be just as embarrasing for the tories as the parties themselves
Kier Starmer now has this angle to attack tomorrow as well. Islamophobia, illegal parties, blackmailing your own MPs and cover-ups too. How many questions does he get?
They’ll investigate for months and then decide either that there isn’t enough evidence to prosecute, or that it would not be in the public interest.
For the umpteenth time, the Met don't make those decisions, the CPS do.
If I was in a conservative constituency I’d email my MP saying they should ask for it to be released
I've not bothered contacting my Labour MP about all this shit before, but actually I think asking him to try and get the opposition request the report is released might be worth doing.
How many questions does he get?
6 IIRC
@martinhutch - it's just a shame it isn't live on prime time TV!
@tthew - good point, I'll probably email my MP about that as well
More leaks
The Met have no objection to the Grey report being publisedh according to "sources"
I really have seen nothing like this in my life. The amount of arrogance and deceit, the leaking and the 4th rate MPs attempting to defend the indefensible while anyone with half a brain is running as fast as they can in the other direction
I really have seen nothing like this in my life.
I think it's a sign of how desensitised to this shit we've become over the last few years that each new 'revelation' that is leaked, complete with the blatant rule-breaking, lying, deceit and cover-up it exposes is just whats expected. Just par for the course with this gang of morally bankrupt shysters.
I just can't see how anyone can defend it or come away with any other impression than them just laughing at you and treating us all with utter contempt
For the umpteenth time, the Met don’t make those decisions, the CPS do.
CPS make the decision to charge but not charging- the MPS could decide it doesn’t meet the threshold for seeking a charging decision, so could in theory bin it (although that would be a bit mental if you can pass the buck to cps)
Responsibility of the police;
“taking “no further action” in cases that cannot meet the appropriate evidential standard, without referral to a prosecutor;”
Just par for the course with this gang of morally bankrupt shysters
Aside from Johnson's own dishonesty and mendacity, the main thing this whole episode has exposed is how difficult it is to get rid of a corrupt government/PM who routinely break their own rules and the laws they pass. Ultimately there's only one way to get rid of a government, and that's via an election. Labour should be demanding an election now and proposing new policies which will hold future governments to account in situations such as this.
I just can’t see how anyone can defend it or come away with any other impression than them just laughing at you and treating us all with utter contempt
It's starting to become utterly exhausting, being so angry with them the whole time (and by 'them' I mean the whole sodding system). I can't decide if I should become more political and active and make a really big noise about this or just give up, switch off all media and ignore it all as it feels like it's impossible to change any of it.
I can’t decide if I should become more political and active and make a really big noise about this or just give up
Does make you wonder just how much the 'Great British Public' are willing to be shafted before they get off their lazy apathetic arses and do something about it. If this was France Paris would be in flames by now. A while back I got roundly slagged off for saying that burning down tory constituency offices wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. I'm even more of that opinion now.
@dazh - I agree that Labour (and other parties) are just not being a robust opposition. So much opportunity to keep calling for change, to inspire a better future, to demand integrity from our public servants.
It’s starting to become utterly exhausting, being so angry with them the whole time (and by ‘them’ I mean the whole sodding system). I can’t decide if I should become more political and active and make a really big noise about this or just give up, switch off all media and ignore it all as it feels like it’s impossible to change any of it.
Better hurry up if you want to do that 🙂
Before they get the laws thru to prevent that.
ignore it all as it feels like it’s impossible to change any of it.
Not a dig at you mate, genuinely, but that's a good part of why we have a Tory government and Boris for a PM.
Your point on the seeming impossibility of changing the system is valid though.
I made a post ages back about the merit of having a written condition and it was roundly dismissed as being unnecessary.
I'm now wondering if we really do need one. It would help deal with a PM /government that is overtly corrupt and simply doesn't play by the old codes of "honour" and falling on your sword for the greater good.
Sorry if this has been done....
https://mobile.twitter.com/bydonkeys/status/1471125380228653060?s=12
People will say they are weak and useless because they couldn’t get rid of the most useless and corrupt PM in living memory.
They will, but just reply telling them it's because we don't have a functioning constitution that he's both in place and still here.
but that’s a good part of why we have a Tory government and Boris for a PM.
Spot on. Those that think they are born to rule are very happy for the electorate to leave them to it. You've got to keep fighting if you want any change, but it is hard.
Has the report actually been finished? Twitter makes it sound like it has…
I agree that Labour (and other parties) are just not being a robust opposition. So much opportunity to keep calling for change, to inspire a better future, to demand integrity from our public servants.
Apart from thats exactly what they are doing Both Raynor and Starmer made statements to that effect in the last couple of days. However there is also the old adage " Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake."
So its a fine balance. also given the amount of news coming out of the tories its hard to get column inches
Keir’s done well so far on this one.
PMQs etc that got BoJo to make statements in the house that look more and more like misleading parliament - and that, even if it’s about whether he accidentally pocketed a paperclip that wasn’t his, is a resigning matter.
Keir doesn’t need to knock him out, only get him lying to the house.
The reason civil cases and administrative investigations often end up needing to be paused when there are criminal proceedings isn't just, or even primarily, that the prosecutors might prefer that. It is because a combination of rules and practical considerations mean that the civil/administrative process may not be possible, for example potential criminal defendants claiming the privilege against self-incrimination, relevant material getting seized, witnesses being more reluctant to co-operate and so on. A fair disciplinary proceeding would be difficult for an employee who is also a criminal defendant where the cases are about the same thing, so often employees remain suspended for the duration. There is the possibility of publication of stuff preventing a fair trial, thought that is really only a concern in jury cases and these would be magistrates jobs (afaik).
The Gray investigation is kind of preliminary to disciplinary proceedings, and may be almost complete. I read that she was not going to publish the names of junior staff involved anyhow. So many of these difficulties may not apply.
However there is also the old adage ” Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.”
There's a huge danger that labour will be seen as enjoying all this. It's not time to be sitting back and enjoying the ride, it's time to be going for the jugular and demonstrating the same level of outrage and anger that the public feel. At PMQs last week Starmer and Rayner looked like they were having a ball.
They will, but just reply telling them it’s because we don’t have a functioning constitution that he’s both in place and still here.
There have been two recent examples from a country thats keen on their written constitution of a government being quite happy to ignore it when it suits them.
There’s a huge danger that labour will be seen as enjoying all this.
Folks have realised that this is all the problem of the Tories and Johnson. The occasional upwards bump in the Tories polling doesn't hide the fact that everyone now thinks of Johnsons as some-one who is untrustworthy and deceitful. Something like 60% of the voting population thinks he should resign, the cops are investigating possible crimes and it turns out the Grey report won't need to be delayed after all. it's just a matter of when now.
Time and time again attacking incompetence doesn't stick unless you're attacking Labour.
It's up to Starmer as per DazH to start using politics as a means of attack.
Right back to the start of the pandemic Starmer has been weak and he's paid the price.
Labour aren't offering anything anywhere near good enough with ideological conviction.
There have been two recent examples from a country thats keen on their written constitution of a government being quite happy to ignore it when it suits them.
This is an important point. A written constitution in itself is a guarantee of nothing.
Your point on the seeming impossibility of changing the system is valid though.
The change we need is PR. Currently, millions of potential protest votes against the government or any party are simply ignored because of how the system currently works.
The change we need is PR. Currently, millions of potential protest votes against the government or any party are simply ignored because of how the system currently works.
But when we had a referendum on it we said no. It was quite recently politically speaking. & no I don't remember it either.
https://www.politics.co.uk/reference/proportional-representation/
But when we had a referendum on it we said no
Also, don't look to Labour either, the Unions are completely against it. and killed it deader than dead thing at the last conference
But when we had a referendum on it we said no.
It wasn't really PR we were offered. It was a dogs dinner of a half way house
The Labour party, if it was in any way sane, would be championing PR, but unfortunately the unions who fund them are a bunch of dinosaurs stuck firmly in the 1970's and still entertain the fantasy of some grand landslide victory under FPTP
You cannot blame this upon the unions Binners - the whole PLP are against any form of PR because they know under PR they will lose. Look to Scotland. Now while the collapse of labour in Scotland is not just down to PR its a significant part of it because it allows other parties to gain fair representation
the fact that it means we would never have a tory government again is lost on them.
But when we had a referendum on it we said no.
No, we have referendum on AV. Where Cummings proved he could run a good referendum campaign... which he damn well can... ultimately leading to Britain being in the mess we are now.
You cannot blame this upon the unions Binners
> checks the conference vote on PR ... I think he can <
Not solely on the unions then. The PLP are solidly against it for the simple reason they would never get sole power again either and they look to Scotland and see that PR works against them as well. turkeys do not vote for Christmas
Off the top of my head, Clive Lewis and David Lammy have spoken strongly about the need for Labour to back PR. I've no idea if your "solidly" is just a guess, or if you've read something that backs it up as regards where all the MPs stand on this.
Numerous statements on it over the years and the actions of labour during the debate on AV both before and after the bill was published
AV isn't PR. Many people voted against and campaigned against AV precisely because what was proposed wasn't a proportional system.
Don't assume today's MPs share the same views as MPs from a decade ago anyway, or that those still in the commons from those days haven't changed their minds.
I have no idea what that balance is in the PLP right now as regards supporting PR. Do you?
I have no idea what that balance is in the PLP right now as regards supporting PR. Do you?
Starmer refused to back it at their most recent party conference. I suspect it's a bit too democratic for his tastes.
That’s one. I’m sure there are many more. Is that the PLP being “solidly” against? Or is it 50:50? Slight majority against? In favour? If they are listening to their CLPs, I’d hope more and more are at least considering PR. This should all be in another thread though, sorry.
A while back I got roundly slagged off for saying that burning down tory constituency offices wouldn’t necessarily be a bad thing. I’m even more of that opinion now.
Let us know when you start 🙄
Anyway, Crispin Blunt defending Johnson on PM tonight. Lots of talk about 'perspective', how these things aren't really important, and how in the end it's just a fpn. 'i mean, you wouldn't expect a PM to resign for a speeding ticket, would you?'
Gloriously out of touch! 🤣 Keep going!
The change we need is PR. Currently, millions of potential protest votes against the government or any party are simply ignored because of how the system currently works.
But when we had a referendum on it we said no. It was quite recently politically speaking. & no I don’t remember it either.
That was when we had a Prime Minister who liked the idea of using referendums as a way of making ideas he didn't like go away 🙂
I don’t know about you, but that sounds like it could have been a zoom meeting. You know, like everyone else was having to have at that point.
Happens all the time at my workplace. Pop into a room expecting a high-level strategy meeting and instead find that there's a birthday party going on with cake and people singing.
Its very noticeable that the senior cabinet ministers are not backing him publicly anymore. All in hiding? its left to the 4th rate ones to go on telly to defend him.
It must be awful for Johnson personally - ( good ) but how much longer will he tolerate the torture? I am sure of his total unwillingness to resign as that would mean admitting he has done wrong but on the other hand the temptation to run away must be huge
PMQs tomorrow should be fun. Maybe he will resign once he gets the Grey report so he does not have to face the ordeal of being openly mocked again. It must have hurt him last week
turkeys do not vote for Christmas
Brexit and an 80 seat Tory majority says they do. Often.
I can see him staying in place ‘till the next election now. For him, another Tory winning the next election means nothing to him, he doesn’t care. Whereas a shot at another 5 years, with a smirking “you know I’m a lying self serving waste of space, but vote for me anyway, we’ll show them”, even if there is only the outside chance of being successful… hell, probably partly because everyone thinks he is unlikely to win… I can see him eyeing that up and going for it, and being amused to test and see just how much he can get away with.
Why would his MPs put up with that? Well, he purged the party of MPs who wouldn’t back him. Any MP who turns on now him is admitting that they made a mistake… and I’m sceptical about enough doing that only two years down the line. And if they were wrong about Johnson… how else has their judgment failed them in recent years…?
It would mean divorce and pushing the wife and kids under the bus though.
https://twitter.com/channel4news/status/1486053103078154241?s=21
AMBUSHED WITH A CAKE
UK politics.
He’s our leader. I support him.
And that… is all the matters.
That’s one.
The leader. Remind me who spoke in favour of the motion?
We can't know what MPs may think privately, but I suggest that "solidly against" is a pretty good description of what they will choose to do.
My 13y/o & his mates are even discussing this! They were joking about the government’s favourite tv show & came up with Pointless & I’m an immigrant- get him out of here!!
I added Would I lie to you? And 8 out of 10 ****s!!
I am sure of his total unwillingness to resign as that would mean admitting he has done wrong
There are lots of things that have always been apparent about Boris - one is his arrogance but the another is his cowardice. His 'people' in both his leadership and election campaigns were well aware of this and kept him out of situations were he'd say something stupid or deal with a situation that he's scared of - like having to answer a questions. One thing they can't do for him is resign - he's on his own with that. His arrogance is what got him into this predicament but its his cowardice thats keeping him in it - he just doesn't have the balls to resign
AMBUSHED WITH A CAKE
Oh please oh please oh please
Previous cake ambushes…
EDIT: forgot that David Amess was one of those fooled about Cake. I’m not deleting the video though, I think it shows that he genuinely wanted to help people, even if he was taken in by Morris’ ambush.
AMBUSHED WITH A CAKE
All the political comedians must have collapsed in tears on hearing that. I mean how can they top that?