[Closed] Blimey Dave, you weren't joking....

So where the extra money come from then Dave? Whose pockets are you going to take it from?

He had better hope the economy keeps growing. Time to sort out the productivity problem finally? But a bit early for a political trap!!

Him and his mate Osborne have already pushed VAT to the highest level in history, and you're impressed because they are happy to leave at that level for the next 5 years ?

"Time to sort out the productivity problem finally?"

shut down STW during office hours?

Who said anything about impressed? C'mon Ernie no games now! You will be aware of how UK VAT stacks up against international comparisons too.

You're unimpressed then. How much do you think VAT should be reduced by, down to the level it was before the Tories came to power ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_of_Europe

Must admit we don't look to shonky compared to the rest of Europe, although some countries , which are less in VAT , I wouldn't want to live.

It's quite unusual to put those taxes up anyway, isn't it?

Easily the stupidest thing the tories said in all the campaign (of many stupid things)

Tory equivalent of the "Ed Stone"

It's never a good idea to judge individual taxes in isolation (google IFS/Mirlees etc, that's the old problem).

VAT has increased globally for well documented and valid reasons. The UK is no exception to the rule.

I note instead the concept of freezing big tax revenue earners at this stage. As I noted before, the real cuts have yet to bite. This makes this more likely now IMO as growth still looks vulnerable. The global debt overhang remains bigger than ever and there is little inflation/growth to erode it.

Oopps!

NI has been creeping up for years, as most people don't look at that part of their pay stubbs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_of_Europe

Wow there's some cheap places out there! 🙂

Just goes to show that there was no-one more shocked than Dave to end up with a majority. So Him and Gideon looked at each other in complete disbelief, and said 'shit! we've actually got to implement all that crap we promised before. The stuff we never ever thought we'd ever have to do'

Basically, this is the Tory's equivalent of this.....

[img] [/img]

You can promise what you like, when you don't think for a second you'll actually be held accountable for it. But we all know what happens to people who renege on stuff like that, don't we?This Years Lib Dem conference could take place in a family car.

Theres also the small matter of that £8 billion extra a year for the NHS. Time for a root around down he back of the sofa. Or some serious Gordon Brown-esque double-bubble accounting

I really don't see why they need bother with legislating for this, it's not as if the opposition can just unilaterally raise VAT half way through Parliament....

apropos, EU tax rates. Our VAT isn't the worst. But It's a terrible tax and should be got rid of.

red = corp tax
blue = top income tax
green = VAT

[img] :large[/img]

VAT has increased globally for well documented and valid reasons. The UK is no exception to the rule.

Oh I see. VAT went up when the Tories came to power because of conditions outside their control. For the last 5 years the Tories haven't been in complete control of the economy and it's all down to well documented "global" reasons.

Unlike the previous 5 years when Labour were in power, then obviously they were in complete control of the economy and everything was down to them.

How convenient.

Thanks for that Stoner. I now see that under a Labour government the UK had one of the lowest VAT rates of any country. Of course all that changed when the Tories came back to government. Who would have thought Labour governments were low tax governments eh ?

[img] [/img]

Income tax rates fell under Labour.

VAT rose under the Tories.

IIRC when we had 15% VAT (under a lovely labour government), so too did much of Europe. I think what THM was alluding to was the "soft" VAT harmonisation towards 20% that's been encouraged across the EU over the last 15 years or so.

I assume that the promise relates to the [i]rate[/i] of said taxes and there has been no mention of changing the threshold at which they are applied (e.g. upper NI contributions on wages), or the reliefs that are granted (e.g. limited pension reliefs)?

Then of course there are things like CGT which could well be expanded to include say the sale of your home, to pick a hypothetical example at random.

Make no mistake there are plenty of ways that additional taxes can be raised whilst still sticking to the letter of these promises.

No Ernie, not global reasons as in external reasons. Instead, reasons that support VAT that are widely accepted as being valid. You will see similar charts across many economies, irrespective of who is in power. Google is your friend....

You will, of course be aware that VAT was first introduced as a condition of entry into the EEC.

Of course, politically myopic folk may wish to divert attention to progressive (sic) issues instead of understanding why governments use VAT in the first place. Make for a nice swerve and pointless arguments!

Yeah THM you know full well that the UK as a long standing member state had a right of veto on the VAT rates which later applied to new members. The last Labour government used that right to keep the VAT rate in the UK low, the Tory government which followed chose not to.

As a dyed-in-the-wool Tory you clearly feel uncomfortable when the Tory myth that they are the party of low taxation is exposed as a sham.

So you come out with some bollocks such as [i]"Google is your friend...."[/i] and in a stroke of wonderful irony [i]"Make for a nice swerve and pointless arguments!"[/i]

It's you who's trying diversionary tactics. You started a thread to discuss that the Tories aren't putting up VAT, I pointed out that's because they've already put it up to the highest level in history.

Obviously you want to change the subject now. Along predictably to tell me that you know what you're talking about and that I don't. What a surprise.

Are the, "you are a Tory" chestnut, how novel! Thanks for the economic history lesson Ernie. Not that I need it, remember who notes that your poster girl's track record was largely a myth - not a common stance albeit one that I maintain!

Strip away the political blinkers and explain why there has been a global adoption of and increase in the rate of VAT. Are the Tories that powerful that they influence tax policies everywhere. May be it wasn't a myth after all, I must be mistaken!

Of course there is an alternative interpretation as the OECD makes clear

The spread of VAT has been the most important development in taxation over the last half century. Limited to less than ten countries in the late 60’s it has now been implemented by more than 150 countries. VAT now raises approximately 20 percent of the world’s tax revenue and affects about 4 billion people. The recognized capacity of VAT to raise revenue in a neutral and transparent manner has drawn all OECD member countries to adopt this broad-based consumption tax, except the United States, which continues to employ retail sales taxes at the state level (and below) rather than apply a federal consumption tax. Its neutrality principle towards international trade has also made it the preferred alternative to customs duties in the context of trade liberalization.

Still what do they know, eh?

I actually started a thread to highlight that Dave has proposed capping three of the most important sources of government revenue. As noted before, it's much better to think about taxes in aggregate. Far too easy to end up in party political cul de sacs otherwise.

So back to the topic.....

So back to the topic.....

So back to the topic the Tory government's "five year ban" on a VAT increase isn't anywhere near impressive as it might otherwise appear as they had already increased VAT 5 years ago to the highest level in history.

Blimey indeed Dave.

😀

Meanwhile, considering the implications of the measures in [b]aggregate[/b]...

(Enjoy your games Ernie)

I really don't see why they need bother with legislating for this, it's not as if the opposition can just unilaterally raise VAT half way through Parliament....

This^^

The most stupid and pointless Tory stunt [insert joke here] of the campaign. And as others have said, thresholds will still be changed.

All of us who slagged off the Lib Dems for their part in the coalition may be missing them soon now the Tories are properly off the leash.

A five year ban on income tax, VAT and NI???

Fiscal drag into the 40% band as pay tracks inflation is an effective way of making extra cash from people who can afford to pay it.

And you can't just look at head-line rates as we also don't put VAT on lots of products other countries do.

[i]The spread of VAT has been the most important development in taxation over the last half century. Limited to less than ten countries in the late 60’s it has now been implemented by more than 150 countries. VAT now raises approximately 20 percent of the world’s tax revenue and affects about 4 billion people. The recognized capacity of VAT to raise revenue in a neutral and transparent manner has drawn all OECD member countries to adopt this broad-based consumption tax, except the United States, which continues to employ retail sales taxes at the state level (and below) rather than apply a federal consumption tax. Its neutrality principle towards international trade has also made it the preferred alternative to customs duties in the context of trade liberalization.[/i]

OT - Also helps Europe sell software products to the rest of the world as more move onto VAT from Sales Tax's etc.

All of us who slagged off the Lib Dems for their part in the coalition may be missing them soon now the Tories are properly off the leash.

In May 2010 Nick Clegg and the LibDems created a right song and dance concerning the "Tory VAT bombshell", urging people not to vote Tory as he/they claimed the Tories intended to put up VAT.

[img] [/img]

A few weeks later with his ministerial car firmly secured Nick Clegg helped the Tories increase VAT from 17.5% to 20%. Which btw makes it the highest ever level in history.

The Tories couldn't have done it without help from the LibDems.

seadog101 - Member

So where the extra money come from then Dave? Whose pockets are you going to take it from?

The STW massive seem quite keen to pay more tax to cover these bills.
All sorted!

The STW massive seem quite keen to pay more tax to cover these bills.
All sorted!

Original post included this:

A five year ban on income tax, VAT and NI???

The three largest revenue earners capped.

As i have no inheritance any time soon, i don't run a business and i do a very few thousand miles a year driving, i am not sure how this government is actually going to [i]allow[/i] me to pay more tax.
Beer maybe? Better start panic buying now 😉

Notice how it's never difficult for the Press to find a photo of Gideon with a dark look in his eyes. He's a game player par excellence. So was Balls IMO. In love with the game of politics but no interest in actually doing the job...

Even the Economist struggles to find much positive to say about him.e.g. their take on Gideon announcing more power to the regions is that way worse cuts are coming than we had in the last parliament. Give the regions power just as the massive cuts come through and the electorate makes a (wrong) correlation/causation and blames local government...

With a massive deficit to be paid off, there'll be plenty of ways that taxes will be found - there has to be or we'll end up broke. This looks like populism, not policy. Why on earth would you freeze taxes when such a massive deficit has to be paid off? Maybe he's going to do the sensible thing and tax BTL and foreign ownership till they bleed, and give housing back to 'hard-working families' instead of spivs... but I doubt it, sadly

Progressive income tax has fallen whereas regressive taxes on expenditure like VAT have increased. These changes are made to benefit the rich as proportionately less of their income goes on expenditure and, for example, they don't get charged VAT on their private school fees. Incidentally the de facto tax subsidies to private schools because of their 'charitable' status amount to a sum greater than the per capita expenditure on pupils in state schools.

I strongly believe Ernie is a troll

I strongly believe that you want to disagree but can't manage anything beyond pointless inane comments edward2000. I wonder which one of us is right ?

What I don't fully understand is why govt decided to put vat up when it should gave gone down to increase spending and growth to bring in probably wayyyy more govt income from business'

I voted tactically last time round and chose not to vote this time round in the strong belief there is no good option of a bad lot of stinking eggs.

They're trying to pull off new young voters to their party but only for short term temporary policies which even then they don't have to stick to going through with.

Shame in you tory elite scuzzbuckets

[i]What I don't fully understand is why govt decided to put vat up when it should gave gone down to increase spending and growth to bring in probably wayyyy more govt income from business'[/i]

Well....I would suggest that if you had no money or were struggling, your main spending would be on essentials which have no or lower vat levels. If you've got some cash to splash then you are paying more tax.

Its wot the lefties want..... isn't it?

speaking as a lefty, pardon?

Incidentally the de facto tax subsidies to private schools because of their 'charitable' status amount to a sum greater than the per capita expenditure on pupils in state schools.

This is complete and utter rubbish.

Even the Economist struggles to find much positive to say about him.e.g. their take on Gideon announcing more power to the regions is that way worse cuts are coming than we had in the last parliament. Give the regions power just as the massive cuts come through and the electorate makes a (wrong) correlation/causation and blames local government...

This is the most centralist government yet!

Cameron is continuing with his creeping centralism. Housing charities and council estates will in effect come under a central land bank, with Whitehall dictating disposals, subsidies and revenue transfers. The failed attempt in the last parliament to balance affordable sales with newbuilds has led Cameron to seize control of public housing finance in every corner of the land. This is megalomania.

The government is now seeking to complete the covert project to nationalise all schools. New primaries and secondaries, together with those defined by Whitehall as “failing or coasting”, are to be brought under regional tzars. Some schools will be called “free”, but that makes no difference. The nationalisation of Britain’s schools, a project sought by Lord Lawson in the 1980s, may at last be achieved, ending a long tradition of local responsibility for education.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/27/queens-speech-cameron

Well....I would suggest that if you had no money or were struggling, your main spending would be on essentials which have no or lower vat levels. If you've got some cash to splash then you are paying more tax.

Its wot the lefties want..... isn't it?

I don't the poster was suggesting the income be derived from people that just spend their money on clothes and a shelter. I think the idea is to encourage growth across the retail sector - that a VAT cut would generate more spending from the pocket of folks that spend money on stuff. Things are a bit cheaper - more spending power etc.

Also given there is VAT on utilities (albeit 5%) - I think we're past the non- essentials that VAT was possibly designed for.

so it seems that we re universally appauled by the tories for raising vat to record levels and yet we pay no vat on food,childrens clothes, stamps ,sports facilities, gambling including bingo, admission charges to museums etc, antiques, anything that charity shops sell, funerals, any equipment for the disabled, nicotene patches and all stop smoking products, tampons, prescription services, any education, water, sewage utilities, parking, repairs to aircraft?, helicopters.., books/magazines, helicopters , all helmets , we only pay 5% on gas and electric..

so what it boils down to is we object at paying an extra £1000 on our 40k audis and a sapping £87.50 on our 3500 new bike and yet want the govt to spend more on the nhs and reduce student fees..

VAT. As posted earlier we have a lower VAT rate than most of our EU neighbours, we also have more exemptions and no VAT on food eg France (5.5%), Germany (7%). VAT on food in Denmark is 25% fyi

VAT or sales tax is widely used around the world. It's an excellent and fair tax paid by all. The exemptions we have on rent, food, children's clothes and reduced rates for utilities mean it has very little impact on the less well off. VAT is paid by visitors to the UK and by businesses. If VAT was abolished other personal taxes would have to go through the roof.

TMH, yes indeed a bold move committting to keep tax and NI on hold. However it further distances the Tories from Labour, just think forward to 2020 and the Tories can challenge Labour to pass/refresh the same legislation post the election.

Taxes went up under Labour FYI

this nationalisation/centralisation does make me sad.

Especially when it's accompanied by rhetoric about how they are doing the exact opposite.

is it any wonder no-one votes in local elections? they are not in charge of anything any more. they only have adoption, social care and bins.

I did read that if all the smith commission things went through Scotland would have the same level of responsibly as a small french city. whoop e do.

Think about if we were still 15% and Europe at 20% . All those lovely migrants who would come to our shores as they 'get more for their money' invading our shores and then demand monies by other means from government handouts. Quite happy to stick with 20% to balance the European books. And anyway, Labour lost by a majority as people believed they couldn't balance books with monies and even Mr Ballsup lost his constituency seat, which is a double blow for the lefties. Merkyll would have eaten Millibland for breakfast.

is it any wonder no-one votes in local elections? they are not in charge of anything any more. they only have adoption, social care and bins.

I did read that if all the smith commission things went through Scotland would have the same level of responsibly as a small french city. whoop e do.

That article you read re: French cities must be wrong, towns do have a degree of flexibility of local business taxes for example but France is very very bureaucratic with huge amounts of rules and regulations set centrally. They have no power to set income taxes.

"we pay no vat on...gambling including bingo"

Iirc there's a special regime for taxation of gaming turnover and it's quite high when you consider punters keep feeding the machine (actual or metaphorical) until they lose all their money.

Btw the 0% income tax rate in Bosnia is wrong, it's 10% in both entities and brcko.

this nationalisation/centralisation does make me sad.

Especially when it's accompanied by rhetoric about how they are doing the exact opposite.

In a classic example of 'unspeak' (Sir) Eric Pickles 'Localism' bill was in fact a massive centralising power grab from local authorities to bring more decisions under Whitehall control, while simultaneously spouting a load of guff about empowering local communities

Have you ever met any local counselors or attended a meeting ?

yep 😆

In their defence there are some great ones but i realise there are very many very poor counicllors but i view it as a viscious cycle, why would you be one? Make them organisations worth leading and the applicants would get better is my hope.

In a classic example of 'unspeak' (Sir) Eric Pickles 'Localism' bill was in fact a massive centralising power grab from local authorities to bring more decisions under Whitehall control, while simultaneously spouting a load of guff about empowering local communities

Which is why it makes me sad.

In defence of local counsellors it is an unpaid (and often unappreciated) role, so you're not going to get your high flyers as they're working 70 hour weeks in the City......

In defence of local counsellors it is an unpaid (and often unappreciated) role

It's not actually, they can pay themselves quite generously. The former Tory leader of Croydon Council appreciated himself so much that last year he gave himself a pay rise of 18%, taking it to well over £1,000 a week, far more than most Croydon residents earn.

http://www.croydonadvertiser.co.uk/Croydon-MP-Gavin-Barwell-brands-ex-council-leader/story-22870884-detail/story.html

It's not actually,

Only a few full time positions get a salary, the majority just get an allowance.

http://www.beacouncillor.org.uk/howto/payment.htm

It's all called "an allowance", if you read my link you'll see that it says : [i]"Cllr Fisher asked council officers for his allowances to be increased from £53,000 to £62,352."[/i]

Perhaps MPs could try that stroke, ie, scrap their salaries and just have "allowances" instead.

[i] teamhurtmore - Member

...when you suggested tax freezes pre-election

A five year ban on income tax, VAT and NI???

The three largest revenue earners capped. Hmmm.....seems quite extreme/ballsy (you decide)[/i]

Sorry, haven't read the entire thread. However, perhaps its as simple as this:

A ban on increasing certain taxes may be a "nice to have" but at this stage I take that proposal as an aspiration and I have no doubt that if that policy doesn't produce the desired result, that the policy will be revised.
And for me this is more important than the BS. As we all know, nothing is written in stone and nothing is constant and so if things don't go exactly as planned (as surely they can't, always) then what I need is someone in charge who will alter their policy to adapt when required rather than sail the ship onto the rocks to save face.

My mother was a Councillor, she was certainly better informed than Jamba, although that is a relatively low bar. She received an allowance of a few thousand a year which did come in handy.