Forum menu
My friend's mum has recently died. Her mum had rented the same flat for over 50 years.
She has recently handed the keys back to the flat. Apparently in the rental agreement it said that the flat had to be redecorated when leaving it. She had paid her mum's rent for another 2 months after the death so that she had time to clear and clean the flat. We have been told by someone that there was no need to pay that rent.
My friend is the executor of her mum's will and now the landlord is now chasing her for £3000 to redecorate. Can they do this?
Depends on the contract but unlikely unless the mum has done a lot of damage that is not "fair wear and tear". She does need to pay the rent up to the point she returns the keys which ends the tenancy
the landlord is being an utter shit
all IMO
Apparently in the rental agreement it said that the flat had to be redecorated when leaving it.
Does it or doesn't it, what does apparently mean?
As for paying the rent after her death - assuming that was while she was emptying and cleaning then I think that's still payable, out of the estate. IDK what happens if someone dies with no estate at all and can't pay for more rent - it's probably morally unreasonable to expect them to be out immediately but equally you can't drag it out unreasonably either?
Have you got a copy of the contract? Are we talking a 50year old contract? Has it actually been signed by the person? To be honest I would be fighting this. I was a landlord and would not have dreamed about asking for this. After that length of time the property will probably need a full upgrade bathroom/kitchen etc.
Apparently in the rental agreement it said that the flat had to be redecorated when leaving it.
Doesn't matter what the tenancy agreement says. The law has changed quite a bit over the years and a lot of stuff in tenancies is very out of date and doesn't hold up to statute. Landlords have to pay for fair wear and tear as that's what you pay rent for/towards.
I'd suggest you go to legal advice UK on Reddit and ask there.
r/LegalAdviceUK
You don't inherit debts. Tell the landlord to contact her mum.
Also, she should be asking for the deposit to be paid back to the estate.
You don’t inherit debts
Really? I suspect that as part of the probate process you use the deceased person’s assets to pay off their debts before dividing up the residual estate between the beneficiaries. Otherwise what’s to stop terminally ill people borrowing loads of money to buy stuff like houses and cars which simply pass on to their beneficiaries?
Of course if their debts are bigger than their estate can pay off then you don’t inherit a liability to pay them off, there is just nothing for you to inherit.
IANAL
When was it last decorated?
The landlord should be dancing with joy! A sitting tenant paying bugger all who he was unable to evict has popped her clogs and he can now whack the rent up to a "market " rate.
Asking £3k to redecorate is taking the piss!
Asking any money to redecorate is taking the piss! Tell them to **** off. In fact, don't. Just block them. But also investigate the deposit thing in case it needed to be protected. If it did need to be protected and hasn't been, then more can be claimed. OP - go to that Reddit link. Tons of similar things being asked in there.
**** landlords and anyone who owns more properties than they themselves can live in.
This speculative approach to housing is what has lead to a decline in people's long term prospects and fulfilment.
Tax second properties to the point that owning one, whether it be for personal or "business"*, makes no financial sense.
* see landlords
Not all landlords are shits. I'm an accidental landlord letting my flat for 3/4 of market rent, gave my tenants a huge discount in covid costing me thousands in foregone rent. the flat is insulated and kitted out to a very high standard (better than the flat I live in) My tenant is delighted
You don’t inherit debts. Tell the landlord to contact her mum.
What J-R said. The estate does inherit debts, but only until its exhausted (and there are some priorities in how they're paid) Just been through it with my mum's estate
- house was in joint tenancy so passed to my Dad without being part of the estate
- small amount of property (wedding ring, engagement ring, earrings) with sentimental value is being kept for now
- she had a small funeral plan that due to inflation, etc. didn't cover the cost of the funeral
- and some left on her credit card balance transfer
The bank has passed the CC debt to their solicitors to see if the estate can pay it, but the funeral money is spent and you're allowed to use the money for that.
It's a bit more complex, AIUI / according to CAB. A funeral is now about £5-6K including flowers and wake, you might be able to do one for say £2K but you aren't obliged to stick to that just so you can cover the CC debt. Mum's policy was about £4K, and was all used towards the funeral. OTOH if you had say an £8K insurance policy, you might struggle to justify spending it all on a funeral when you can get a decent one for less and then have some for the other debts.
Right now we don't know if they will force a sale of precious sentimental value items (or we may be forced to buy from the estate to balance it)
I'd just ask the landlord to produce a signed copy of the tenancy agreement and send it via probate.
After 50 years I doubt a copy exists
I’m an accidental landlord letting my flat for 3/4 of market rent, gave my tenants a huge discount in covid costing me thousands in foregone rent. the flat is insulated and kitted out to a very high standard (better than the flat I live in) My tenant is delighted
😇
Still... You're part of the problem, accidental or otherwise.
My tenant is getting the flat for less than a mortgage on it would cost. We need a pool of rentals properties for folk who want them. What we also need is proper protection for tenants. Scotland there is much more protection for tenants but its still not enough. tenancies are far to weighted in favour of the landlords. I never forget its my flat but its her home
Really? I suspect that as part of the probate process you use the deceased person’s assets to pay off their debts before dividing up the residual estate between the beneficiaries. Otherwise what’s to stop terminally ill people borrowing loads of money to buy stuff like houses and cars which simply pass on to their beneficiaries?
I'm going through this at the moment, after my mum died. I'm executor and sole beneficiary. I don't have access to "the deceased person’s assets" until probate is completed and that will take months to clear, the first thing the bank did when I notified them was freeze her account in both directions. Special dispensation was made by the bank to pay for her funeral - I had to stick it on credit card and they reimbursed me - but anything else can whistle as far is the bank was concerned.
In any case: three grand for a pot of paint? **** that. I would be astonished if that clause was still legal today.
What we also need is proper protection for tenants. Scotland there is much more protection for tenants but its still not enough.
I lived in Germany. Tenants rights are freaking amazing compared to the UK, but the fact still stands that one person does not need to own more than one property in which to live.
Why TF did my landlord need five properties? Because he's a greedy ducker and profits off of other people's desperation. Sell the house and your tenants or others may be able to own their own property in ten, fifteen or twenty years time.
I presume you owning this gaff allows you to retire early and get by on a measly amount of money.
Nothing personal, mind.... You're one of the good ones... 😘
Some folk prer to rent - like my tenant. someone has to provide the properties
Sounds like the landlord is having a laugh.
Firstly, are they are a landlord in their mid 70s at the youngest (possible but most have cashed in investments) or more likely has someone bought the propety in the 50yrs? If they dont have the original contract then its all hear say. Also, £3000, 50 years ago was enough to buy half a small house outright so you need to see this contract. I've never had a rental that had a decorating fee linked to gbp inflation.
Also - I'd wonder of 3k is enough for a landlord to get a solicitor involved to chase it for, or are they just a chancer ba$tard.
Why TF did my landlord need five properties? Because he’s a greedy ducker and profits off of other people’s desperation.
As opposed to what? The desperate tenant being homeless?
It's a shit situation. Up until a few years ago I thought that renting was a poor man's game but if anything it's the opposite. The difference between the mortgage on this place - a five-bedroom mid-terrace with three living rooms - and the rent my partner was formerly paying on a semi with one living room and nominally three bedrooms (if you define a bedroom as a room you can just about fit a single bed into) - is six pounds a month. Renting is a tax on those who don't have a deposit.
Some folk prer to rent – like my tenant.
No-one of sane mind prefers to rent unless they're transient. They just don't have any other choice.
I’d just ask the landlord to produce a signed copy of the tenancy agreement and send it via probate.
After 50 years I doubt a copy exists
You are assuming it’s the original landlord though.
My old neighbour was on their 5th landlord in 40 years when we left . I assume new tenancy agreements are drawn up each time ?
No-one of sane mind prefers to rent unless they’re transient. They just don’t have any other choice.
simply not true - which is why renting is more popular in Europe than the UK as they have better rental protections. My tenant could afford to buy - she prefers the hassle free life of renting and the money she can save.
to buy the flat she is in would cost her £400 pcm more
My tenant could afford to buy – she prefers the hassle free life of renting
Paying a mortgage rather than rent is hardly a hassle. I set up a direct debit and... uh, that's it. 🤷♂️
If anything, renting seems like more faff, my partner spent months failing to get her landlord to fix faults. The boiler was sodded and shut itself down twice a week, half of the lights didn't work, the garage side door didn't open and the kitchen light switch was a hair's breadth from throwing you across the room.
She insisted on painting before she left despite my protestations, to cover up the damp and mould caused by his failure to attend to slipped slates. Compare and contrast, when I left my place I threw the whole lot in the ****it Bucket and walked away.
It's a hassle (I assume) if you plan on moving every few months, but I already said that, it makes a degree of sense if you're transient. It's not for me, they'll be carrying me out of this place in a box.
to buy the flat she is in would cost her £400 pcm more
Then you've woefully underpriced the rental.
Op : ask what deposit protection scheme the deposit is secured in. My bet is if it's a 50 year rental agreement there may not be one, if so you could be quids in
Rental isn’t just about moving every 3 months. The costs/effort involved in a house sale every 2-3 years are substantial. My wife and I were both happy to be renting for a good chunk of our careers.
Supply of both rental and purchase properties is inadequate. That’s the problem, not that there’s one at the expense of another.
A 50 year old tenancy may well be a Regulated Tenancy if she never signed any new agreements, look into it.
All Landlords Are Bastards
I have been on the board of our local Housing Trust for many years. We rent our four properties out at the equivalent of social rent to people on low incomes. All of the income is put back into the houses.
Then you’ve woefully underpriced the rental.
Even if I racked it up to max market value it would still be cheaper to rent than buy. ( even ignoring needing contingency). Markets vary in different places and do not forget the extra costs of owning - buildings insurance, repairs, maintenance. However I am not price gouging. I make more than enough from the rental. I am providing a high quality place to live at a decent rent while still making a bucketful of money
Cougar - all the stuff you mention is not an issue with renting - they are issues with the lousy renters protection laws in England. Some folk prefer to rent so they are not liable for repair and maintenance bills. IN my example I am charging £750 per month. In the last 10 years I have spent £15000 on the flat plus £15000 worth of my time with a (hopefully never to be paid) outstanding bill of £25000 for external repairs
Bastard here...
After 50yrs tell them to knob off.
The citizens advice might be a good idea
It will never change.
https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/f/why-housing-market-wont-get-fixed
ALAB also here.
Virtually the same story as TJAgain.
If ALAB, what about shareholders? Companies don't care about providing a service or looking after their staff anymore, just making a profit for shareholders.
A lot of private pension schemes are based on shares, so is anybody with a private pension scheme a b****** as well?
No-one of sane mind prefers to rent unless they’re transient. They just don’t have any other choice.
Actually, until we had kids we preferred to rent as it afforded us the ability to move easily and we had no obligations to the maintenance of the property beyond cleaning and keeping the garden tidy.
Now we are settled it's different but given I've just had to use a days leave to crawl around in the loft fitting a new boiler after ours went pop, being able to just phone up the landlord and let the deal with the hassle and expense is something I miss at times.
Go in and decorate it in bright orange or the worst wallpaper you can find. Job jobbed.
Another Bastid here
Go to CAB for advice, but I personally would not pay for them to update a property they have taken rent on for 50 years. Fair wear and tear over 50 years is essentially a complete redecoration IMHO.
Ref buying V renting. My tenants own their own home, but could not afford to upgrade so they actually rent their own home out in order to afford to rent my property from me! I have just run the numbers and to buy my rental at market value would be 50% more each month than the rent I charge them which is a fair price for the area/property according to the local estate agent.
It depends on the contract. There may have been an agreement that the rent was lower and the tenant was responsible for the decor (which would be common in Europe). It's not standard in the UK but while assured shorthold is standard I'd be surprised if you couldn't construct a legal contract with different terms.
Any lawyers here to advise?
Anyway to get back to the OP just tell the landlord to whistle for the £3000.. Also check the deposit was actually held in a deposit scheme because if its not then the fine is 3 ti9mes the deposit paid to the renter IIRC ( you will have to check that with a tenacy before the deposit schemes came into play that it was required but I think so)
~Shelter the charity has good info on all this stuff on its website
b33k34
Yes you can draw up contracts giving the tenant more protection or with unusual terms so long as they are legal
More property in fewer hands is not good for society. Paying each month to fund someone else's lifestyle/investments disenfranchises people. Where's the hope in knowing you've got a lifetime of being in the rental trap.....
Sure, some people may prefer to rent rather than pay a mortgage, but u would suggest they are in the minority of renters.
My old landlord inherited five properties when his father (our initial landlord) died. He tried to convince us that we old sign a new contract with him which would have seen our rent go from ~900€ to 1300€. Fortunately a few mates are lawyers and they told us to tell him to do one.
When we moved in September 22 out he insisted that we should decorate the place. Fortunately for us we had been there for over ten years at which point according to German law the renter does not have to do anything as it all comes under wear and tear. He then said that I should remove the kitchen because on the paperwork it was ours.
Fixing chancer. Again lawyer friends told him to stuff it.
Paid over 100k on that property over the years. Now would I rather have paid that into someone else's bank account or on a mortgage and have that equity in the property?
I doubt they have any legal standing in today's legislation and after your friends mums passing. As others say, just give them a stiff ignoring and hope karma catches up with them.
Again, ALAB, when we rented a few years back our daughter was born during that tenancy, the landlady actually said to us as she raised the rent by about 15% that she was going to raise it by more, as we had another tenant in the flat now 🤣
Tell the landlord to do one and block all future contact, problem solved.
No such things as an accidental landlord. Maybe for a few months then you realise you're making money which is a good thing and carry on. I have no issues with this as have rented all over the UK and abroad. Just stop trying to be righteous and admit you're in it for the money.
Absolutely. much better that temporarily unoccupied properties are all boarded up to prevent any money changing hands!
No such things as an accidental landlord................ Just stop trying to be righteous and admit you’re in it for the money.
+1
Rental isn’t just about moving every 3 months. The costs/effort involved in a house sale every 2-3 years are substantial. My wife and I were both happy to be renting for a good chunk of our careers.
Supply of both rental and purchase properties is inadequate. That’s the problem, not that there’s one at the expense of another.
How much of those costs are down to the antiquated system of stamp duty going hand in hand with house price inflation caused by those that can get credit using it to buy 1+N properties, which then puts credit beyond more people, which creates renters, which pushes up rents, which means that those that can get credit buy 1+N houses, etc, etc.
If there were enough houses to buy and we switched stamp duty for either an income or an asset tax then buying and selling a house would be no more expensive than moving between rentals.
Personally I'd support CGT on homes, not having CGT just means each generation pulls the ladder up a little further on the next.
If I buy an average house for ~£250k, and in a decade sell it for £350k a decade later to move to a different area into another £350k house, at first look it seems unfair to get a 20% / £20k tax bill. But then someone 10 years younger than me is also trying to scrape together £350k, which is even less fair than the £270k I'm trying to find for the same house.
I never set out to be a landlord - hence my use of "accidental"
I bought a one bed flat. MRsTJ later bought the one next door. We knocked a hole thru the wall and lived in it as one huge flat. I then extended my flat into the eaves creating more room in my flat, a couple of pals were in dire need of somewhere to live so we temporarily split the flats again and let Mrs TJs at cost to these pals. We got used to living in just my now extended flat and Mrs TJ ended up in a much lower paying job as did I so ended up letting it commercially as a rather crap flat for shitpence for a few years then I invested a huge amount of time and money upgrading the rental to a really high standard - far above the legal minimum for rentals. Stuff like fully insulating the flat and let it as a luxury flat at well below market rent. all the rental money I have had over 15 years or so of letting it is well less of the amount of money I have put into it but of course I do get the capital gains at the end when I do sell. My tenants have probably paid 1/3 of the mortgage and cash invested
I fully understand that the way the housing market in the UK works transfers money for the poor to the rich. You know what really stinks? I could borrow on the two flats as buy to let mortgages, that would give me enough to buy a nice house cash for me to live in and i would still be making a few hundred pounds a month profit even after paying the loan. thats just wrong
I let the flat now at 75% of market rent and its a much higher standard than most flats costing hundreds a month more. I provide a good quality secure home at a below market cost. I forgave my tenants at the time thousands in rental during covid. to buy the rental flat now would cost around 400 pcm more than the rental I charge
I would be perfectly happy to go back to the situation we had in the 70s and 80s with proper secure tenacies at controlled rents and I would also support massive taxation on the capital gains and inheritance
Blah blah blah, I make money so carry on doing it. Not a criticism just the honest answer.