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Afterall – how hard can it be.
Agreed. So it was stupid of them to attempt it.
Just like it would be stupid for me to attempt to scuba dive without the proper equipment or experience.
You can have ALL the gear and still be stupid.
im not sure what your point is .
as ive said before - the people on ben nevis were stupid.
how ever my point is - to get into such a rediculous situation suggests they were unaware they were being stupid.
further to that and entirely separate (so lets not try dragging them together)
enforced pay per rescue for MRT is stupid - not just my opinion but of those qualified to comment.
You can have ALL the gear and still be stupid.
Agreed, but at least you would be better prepared to cope with the conditions. But as I said, we (well me anyway) aren't discussing the wider argument about what constitutes stupid. I am simply saying that I feel these people were stupid doing what they did.
to get into such a rediculous situation suggests they were unaware they were being stupid.
Perhaps. It doesn't absolve them of stupidity though (IMO)
Can I suggest Grough as an ideal resource for those of you who like to indulge in a bit of bit of virtual Schadenfreude. It never fails to delight with its endless tales of hill-going misfortune and the brave deeds of MRTs. It really is the most miserable web-site ever:
https://www.grough.co.uk/magazine/
There is a big difference between those with the skills knowledge and equipment to be out in the hills who make mistakes and those without those three things.
I'm not really comfortable with this logic. If you look at the actual human errors people make when needing rescued, the experienced people often deserve the most blame.
Inexperienced walkers (like this lot) often make knowledge based mistakes. e.g. they don't even understand the need to check the mountain weather forecast, never mind interpret it. They take a shortcut accross a snowslope not relaising the risk etc. Basically the **** up through ignorance.
Experienced walkers often make skill based errors (i.e. they don't use equipment properly, or misread a map). They also make violation type errors - this might be things like stretching the daylight to get an extra summit, not taking an extra jacket to save weight, not leaving route details, using a crusty old climbing gear past it's sell by date, going out for a walk with a bad hangover or when ill, ignoring the weather forecast.
Violation type errors, especially where the motivation is some sort of personal benefit, tend to be regarded as the worst kind of errors. As in, you know what you should do but didn't.
“A little learning is a dangerous thing ;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring :
There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
And drinking largely sobers us again.”This was printed on the frontispiece of the book I (largely) taught myself to climb with, “Snow and Ice Climbing” by John Barry.
Much wisdom in those words and the rest of the poem if you can be bothered reading it!
Wise words, I'll look up the rest. Ta!
Funny you should mention John Barry. I spent a few trips kicking about Chamonix with his son (also John Barry). I've got this photo of him on my wall from a day we got a bit wrong. We started too late, amazing route in amazing light - it wasn't as dark then as this photo makes out, but we definitely finished benighted with some horrible/hilarious combat skiing through porrigdey snow, brush and stream crossings down to the MB Tunnel entrance.
Young JB called older JB for a lift home as it was so late. Request refused, probably to help us 'Drink deep... and sober us again' but I guess mostly as he didn't fancy the drive and we were already down fine.
Hitched a lift back. Bloody great day, partly due to the adverturesome ending. Who knows how close we came to a wrong turn and a rescue, who knows what the balance of stupid v. unlucky verdicts would have been on our situation.
Do you want to be part of a society that punishes people, or even chooses to let them die, for making a decision that is judged to be stupid on some agreed scale, or would you rather we rescue them, and educate them and others through the experience?
That's pretty much the options. I know which I'd rather choose, and it's why I donate to the rescue services, and spend time supporting groups that help educate young people to get out in the wilds safely. (And I'm sure most of the rest of you do, though it's all too easy to go all Daily Wail at this level of stupidity)
tomd
Experienced walkers often make skill based errors (i.e. they don’t use equipment properly, or misread a map). They also make violation type errors
cite?
- thats not my experience or understanding of the majority of accidents at all.
Yes its the holey cheese theory but things occur to even the best equipped and most experienced folk on the hills.
The rescues that really annoy me are the ones enabled by modern phones. ie those that a generation ago would have been self rescues ie broken collar bones type of thing
BTW - Scotroutes is perhaps one of the most experienced hillwalkers on here bar perhaps Matt OAB?
The rescues that really annoy me are the ones enabled by modern phones. ie those that a generation ago would have been self rescues ie broken collar bones type of thing
Not even on the same scale as the amount of nitwits that take their dogs into the mountains and the dog needs rescued! 😂
The rescues that really annoy me are the ones enabled by modern phones.
I think the people in this event would be dead if it wasn't for their mobiles (specifically the app What3Words).
In incident investigation human errors (eg. deciding to take to the hills in a winter storm) get categorised into diffent buckets. A common set used the UK HSE are
The errors made by Grade 1 Numpties are very often "inadvertent". Whereas for more experienced people you will often see "deliberate" errors creep in. People violate rules and practices for all kinds of reasons but often its because of some kind of benefit, either to themselves or others. And that's why it's often the most blameworthy kind of error.
Anyway, just another perspective on it. I get to lead investigations into industrial accidents as part of my job and I generally have quite a bit of sympathy for the common or garden reprobates.
Publicise* the cost of the rescue and give them a nod towards the donation bucket.
* not in the tabloids, please. Maybe MRT and Ben Nevis visitor centre facebook page.
Might inspire decades of sponsored walks from the rescued and their descendants now that the have a "saved my life" story.
I wouldn't be comfortable on any compulsory payment** unless fat layabout do-nothings get charged for their inevitable slow NHS death.
** by which I mean an out of pocket fine for being rescued, which seems to be some peoples comments. The european insurance system is a rather different kettle of fish - paying a 2 figure sum annually whether you use it or not doesn't have the same discouraging effect does it?
So tomd - where do you get your stats on mountain incidents? I understand theory of errors as used in a medical context but I would like you to back up your statements on mountain incidents please.
or would you rather we rescue them, and educate them and others through the experience?
I'd rather we rescue them, give them a right royal bollocking and threat of police charges against them, then educate them through the experience.
I’d rather we rescue them, give them a right royal bollocking and threat of police charges against them, then educate them through the experience.
what will that achieve other than rising death tolls ?
I'm not sure I've called on any stats about mountain incidents TJ, just some reasoning that the moral judgement being made on the ignorant seems to excuse the often more reckless behaviour of experienced outdoorsy people. Folk killing themselves in the mountains by and large are not tourists wearing flip flops.
I'd suggest that there's an element of tribalism - as in at its core mounatin rescue was set up to help fellow mountaineers. When people need rescured who're outside of "our group" we have negative perceptions of their actions.
BTW – Scotroutes is perhaps one of the most experienced hillwalkers on here bar perhaps Matt OAB?
I've barely been in the hills. Far too bloody dangerous.
If ever I twist my ankle on rough ground I'll be before the firing squad for making such an elemental mistake.
@tomd I think you are stretching things applying HSE HF guidance to a "recreational" incident.
Firstly, I understand that those involved in this incident were not UK nationals so may have been wholly ignorant of anticipated conditions on the Ben (and potentially unaware of the issued weather warnings, English was not spoken by the group according to a member of MRT on the radio this evening).
Also, HF guidance assumes a level of task based experience, training and competency before a violation occurs. Again, given my para above, this was potentially lacking or at best inappropriate in this case.
I have shaken my head at some MRT reports over the years, but on this occasion I get an impression it was just the ignorant being caught out.
As recommended by others, Cairngorm John is a great book for those interested.
My perspective on this one comes from being a lead incident investigator and HSE professional in a major accident hazard industry who has been involved in writing HF guidance docs for said industry. I also like walking in the Highlands in winter 👍
I have also never referred to anyone as a numptie or reprobate following a proper investigation.
Tomd
Experienced walkers often make skill based errors (i.e. they don’t use equipment properly, or misread a map). They also make violation type errors - this might be things like stretching the daylight to get an extra summit, not taking an extra jacket to save weight, not leaving route details, using a crusty old climbing gear past it’s sell by date, going out for a walk with a bad hangover or when ill, ignoring the weather forecast.
Where do you get this info from? Its certainly not what I understand but my info is only anecdotal. Stretching the daylight and not having an extra jacket would not lead generally to an MRT callout
Matt - you need to change your name you charlatan!
Stretching the daylight and not having an extra jacket would not lead generally to an MRT callout
Where are you getting that from?.
Stretching the daylight and not having an extra jacket would not lead generally to an MRT callout
That is the attitude that often leads to those factors being fundimental in some mrt call outs.
They seem inconsequential but darkness falling and hypothermia are prime reasons for nav errors.
I think it's a case of know your limits, what looks a short distance on a map can take you ages to walk if tired, cold, hungry,wet and the mood has dropped big time . They didn't even take a map to see where the orange lines are very close almost touching. A walk up to the cic hut would have been great in the storm but even that wearing trainers would have been scary. I've a lot more respect for the guy who's tent fell out with him and run off with the wind, he made fundamental mistakes but hopefully learned from it a wee while back
Futureboy, I think we're at cross purposes I said it was very unlikely that the people in this case violated any rules because they wouldn't know what they are. I was making the point that experienced outdoor people do violate rules all the time and potentially are more morally accountable for the ballache they cause.
The human error model translates pretty well to all human task based activities, recreational or not. It doesn't assume any particular knowledge of a task it just affects what types of errors are likely. Like you I'm speaking about this as an experienced incident investigator / hf lead at the pointy end of uk comah sites.
Tj - those were examples of errors that experienced people make that get them in the shit and contribute to needing rescued.
Tj – those were examples of errors that experienced people make that get them in the shit and contribute to needing rescued.
Most of the mountain rescue reports I've seen suggest slips, trips and stumbles are the main reasons for call outs among experienced hill goers.
Some of the stuff you mentioned might contribute to that but many of the things you mentioned don't.
Those things can exacerbate other errors. They will not be direct cause bit could be exacerbating factors
Mistake driven accidents usually need multiple errors before they become critical
Accidents usually just the accident
A January day few years ago, but nonetheless...
Caller - ‘Hi, I just wanted to check, is there a road to the top of Ben Nevis?’
Me - ‘Er, not really, there’s a footpath’
Caller - ‘Can you drive to the top though?’
Me - ‘No’
Caller - ‘But there are streetlights all the way up?’
Me - ‘Er, no.’
Caller - ‘OK, but it’s still open isn’t it?’
Me - ‘....hang on....Sorry, I’ve just checked, and Ben Nevis is closed until the spring. Maybe come back in the summer’
Caller - ‘OK, cheers mate’
You’re welcome.
Was last up Ben Nevis a week ago tonight, alone. Lovely, but if I twisted my ankle what would you have made of me?
These folks where foreign tourists and very innocent. What is needed here is to rename the "tourist path" the "roughty toughty mountaineers hard as nails path".
These folks are culpable in spite of their innocence because of the weather at sea level on the day. It was gopping even for winter, violent squalls of hail and snow. Some thunder and lightning mixed in with it too.
Well done LMRT.
These folks where foreign tourists and very innocent. What is needed here is to rename the “tourist path” the “roughty toughty mountaineers hard as nails path”.
True, but there aren't there warning signs on the approaches to the path?
Yes there are
I like the idea of the MRT being 'our' MRT for us experienced folk and woe betide anyone who has the temerity to call upon their services. *tongue may be in cheek*
It's that tipping point / cascade of decisions or non-decisions that can end very badly.
My initial reaction reading the reports was 'numpties' and though I'm conflicted - and loathe to go down the Daily Heil pitchfork route, I'm at a loss as to what they thought the outcome would be.
Yep slips and trips are the #1 cause in the SMR data for walkers. In other news, the vast majority of cycling incidents are caused by people losing traction and falling over while horse riding accidents tend to be people falling off horses.
It's totally meaningless as an incident cause.
I'm really just interested why people are making moral judgements about the people rescued off the Ben when the actions themselves seem pretty naive at worst.
. I was making the point that experienced outdoor people do violate rules all the time and potentially are more morally accountable for the ballache they cause.
There are no 'rules', there's stuff that's usual and there's stuff that's not, but it all depends on you and your level of ability, experience, risk assessment etc. The likes of Kilian Jornet quite happily solo up Mont Blanc in what are essentially trainers - not quite, but they look very like them. Alex Honnold solos El Cap quite happily. Alex Macintyre once set out on a hard alpine route carrying his minimal kit in a lightly modified plastic carrier bag.
I wouldn't do any of those myself and neither would most people, but they're extreme examples that aren't really hard and fast rules, just what you as an individual choose to do. If your judgement is poor - or like the tourists on the Ben you basically have no idea of what you're dealing with - then things tend to go wrong, quite often badly. I'm not saying people should be reckless - tends to be bad for self preservation and potentially puts other people's safety in jeopardy too - just that it's a lot more fluid a situation than just following some ticklist of 'shoulds' and 'oughts'. Fwiw, I suspect that most MRT members get that.
YMMV, which is the whole point.
.. this isn't a very well constructed thought, but maybe we all enjoy the free access to the outdoors, and incidents / rescues like this lead to inevitable knee-jerk calls for regulation / compulsory insurance / training - so it's seen as a threat to the freedoms we enjoy and appreciate?
I’m really just interested why people are making moral judgements about the people rescued off the Ben when the actions themselves seem pretty naive at worst.
You accused me of doing this when I did not in any way.
Most of the mountain rescue reports I’ve seen suggest slips, trips and stumbles are the main reasons for call outs among experienced hill goers.
Some of the stuff you mentioned might contribute to that but many of the things you mentioned don’t.
This.
kcal
I think its those of us that enjoy the mountains tend to defer to the MRTs view - which is that charging people for callouts is self defeating as explained above. Insurance? At what point do you need it? Arthers seat? Pentlands? winter only? Its not a workable solution
Perhaps a small voluntary levy on outdoor shops selling stuff - ie 1% on the price goes to MR but if you object you can remove it.
.. this isn’t a very well constructed thought, but maybe we all enjoy the free access to the outdoors, and incidents / rescues like this lead to inevitable knee-jerk calls for regulation / compulsory insurance / training – so it’s seen as a threat to the freedoms we enjoy and appreciate?
An element of that, to be sure. We'd mostly rail against compulsory insurance, and how would you enforce it anyway? Who would have to pay - everyone who left their car? And there's the risk that by charging folk for rescue they'd delay callout and hence either perish or make the situation for the MRT even more difficult.
These knee-jerk reactions always fade away under the most lightweight scrutiny.
Timely reminder - in Scotland, 3/5 call-outs are funded by charity giving of various types. 1/5 are funded by the Scottish Govt and 1/5 are "funded" by the MRTs themselves. Please consider making a donation if you don't already.
I’m really just interested why people are making moral judgements about the people rescued off the Ben when the actions themselves seem pretty naive at worst.
I'm not sure people are making moral judgements. I think it's more of a simple 'that was a pretty stupid thing to do' vibe. Personally I'm just thankful that no-one was killed or seriously injured with a side-order of hopefully they won't make that mistake again.
Mrts have been very clear that they would rather attend a non event and help folk down safely than attend a body recovery
I can't believe they didn't read the TripAdvisor reviews before they set off!
Maybe an AA style emergency phone box every 100 metres up Ben/snowden would eventually sort this problem out,,,,,
Perp, Hi, I’ve got stuck.....
Operator, have you got boots on ?...
P, No
O, we’ll be with you as soon as we can.
Statement from Lochaber MRT
Edit- beaten to it 😁