A thread I never wanted to start. 🙁 When I met and moved in with Mrs Pondo, we managed to keep hold of my one bed maisonette and we rent it out, not so much as an earner as the rent doesn't pay much more than the mortgage, but with an eye to the future. The last tenants have left it a mess - they jerry-built a massive porch, left the place filthy, garden a tip, big holes in walls, burn mark on carpet, hideous (and piss-poor quality!) wallpaper, a child's scribbled on the walls, etc etc. That's all being put right, but the deposit will not cover all of it, there's about £300 we've spent it won't cover, we've put about 48 hours into repairing it so far (almost £430 at minimum wage rates), and they skipped out a month early on a fixed term contract and owe us a month's rent. I'm not by nature a vindictive person, but it feels like a sizeable sum of money we're now short of, knocking on 1500 quid - does anyone know much about pursuing these kind of sums through the small claims courts? Does it cost much to make a claim? They skipped off without leaving a forwarding address, I presume we'll need to know where they've moved to, is that possible to find out?
I don’t want to sound horrible, and this is in no way personal.
But this is what landlord insurance is for and / or part of being a scum landlord. 😉
For every good tenant there will be a bad one. Other people don’t treat your property as if it were their own.
Small claims court is the lowest cost option, but unfortunately even if you manage to get them to court and find in your favour, you’ll never see the money anyway.
Sorry. It’s shitty.
You'll not see that money again, even if you spend the effort tracking them down. Scumbags.
Rent it through an agency next time IMO (or at least use them as a vetting service if you want to manage yourself), insist on rent guarantors - so you won't lose out on the last month again (and ensure the deposit is in a proper tenancy deposit scheme).
Proper contract that tells them up-front that they're not allowed to make any modifications. I ban wallpapering but allow painting (with the proviso that if it's a bold colour then they're responsible for putting it back to neutral before they leave).
No modifications. Period. They're responsible for maintenance and upkeep of the garden. Agency must make 12 monthly visits to ensure things are OK.
In return if there are any problems they get resolved immediately.
As for your current dilemma. I think you've got little hope of recovering cash but that's possibly my inexperience - life is too short to run around after arseholes, which is why I tie them in financially up-front. If they've skipped out without notice and not forwarded an address and you've no guarantor then it's going to be a hard process tracking them down and you'll have to be persistent (and potentially end up with legal fees).
You'd have to obtain a CCJ against them and then move on from there. But for me, just take it on the chin and get your property back on the market asap, and ensure you're covered for this eventuality up-front.
I think you are probably into the risk part of being a landlord. I e. This is one of the risks you run and you have been unlucky. Does go to show it's not risk free easy money by any stretch. Sorry.
Yes just move on, at least the tenants did not stay and refuse to pay.
're your bills keep all receipts and post a tax loss, you can carry it forward against next years profit. You cannot bill your time but all those tools you had to buy to wholly and exclusively repair the flat as a result of the tenant, you can offset too.
The void costs add up, council tax, repairs, insurance, they are all allowable.
Ianaa....so can't advise but plenty of tips on landlordzone.
Next time get a guarantor, you could have reclaimed all your costs against them.
Sounds like they were shitty tenants, I really don’t understand how people can do this to other peoples property and just leave. Heard lots of stories like that
‘Rent barely pays more than the mortgage’ as someone who spent ten years trapped in the rental market, paying more than a mortgage and getting nothing for it, simply because I came out of a poor (by European standards anyway) family not a rich one I struggle to empathise with that bit and ‘losing’ £1500 to be honest. I’m not sure you’ve got the shittier end of the deal there
The above is not aimed at you personally, I obviously don’t blame you for the current housing market situation or my parent’s lack of wealth! Just a reminder to get some perspective on things
‘Rent barely pays more than the mortgage’ as someone who spent ten years trapped in the rental market, paying more than a mortgage and getting nothing for it, simply because I came out of a poor (by European standards anyway) family not a rich one I struggle to empathise with that bit and ‘losing’ £1500 to be honest. I’m not sure you’ve got the shittier end of the deal there
This, surely they have paid off more than £1500 in capital of the mortgage in their time.
You have still profited from them.
Does sound pretty rubbish but as bad tenants go you've got off reasonably lightly. They can cost tens of thousands and be a huge pain in time and stress. I doubt you'll get the money back so try and move on. Some of your costs will be tax deductible. You'll also be able to get a new, better tenant in 1 month earlier to cover the rent loss.
Also if you are barely covering your costs I wouldn't add an agent to deal.
I fear that level of cost isn't worth pursuing. Maybe mention it if their next landlord asks for references.
For every poor tenant there's at least a couple of good ones. It's not easy money, despite what the haters think, and it's partly why a lot of "accidental" landlords like yourselves have sold up in the last few years.
As others have said, pretty much nothing you can do but suck it up. Frustrating and unfair but best to just let it go.
Get it rented again, do all you can to get decent tenants - references, guarantors, deposit, set the rent a little lower than market value to get a good choice of tenant and hopefully they will know they are onto a good thing, landlord insurance, decent tenancy agreement. Once they are in, do property checks reasonably regularly at least at first. Then all you can do is hope for the best.
Oh and in my opinion, there's no point in putting any faith in agents. All they want to do is get your property let. They do drive-by property checks, if at all, and basically don't give a damn!
Edited to say, if your property is suitable, think about accepting pets. People with pets really struggle to find a place to live and will often look after your property and stay longer. You've got to weigh up the damage a pet might do, but often they don't, so it's definitely worth thinking about.
This, surely they have paid off more than £1500 in capital of the mortgage in their time.
You have still profited from them.
Strongly disagree with this statement.
You don't mention when you last changed carpets and redecorated etc?
@ThePilot I believe some recent changes in law mean you have to accept tenants with pets now, or at least I suppose you can't give that as a reason for not accepting a tenant 🙂
^^^^^
Oh, that's good news. Not sure how effective it will actually be but every little helps as they say 🙂
Some people are just rubbish. Sounds like your tenants were. Try not to let them drag you down to their level, but learn from the experience. And try not make all future tenants lives a misery because you once had a rubbish tenant.
We evicted a tenant who owed us 1000s, but she had lost her job, had no money and we'd just made her homeless, so pointless trying to chase the debt, so we never persued it.
It might take a little while, but I think it will make a difference, my understanding is the model tenancy agreement is used in court as a base when deciding if other agremements are fair, you have to justify where you've varied it, and if you can't, the court rules based on the model not on the agreement you actually signed. It's also the agreement that is used in cases where a tenant never signed one, or the old one expired.
Have they a facebook page you can leave a scathing review on ?. Public naming and shaming seems to work well these days
Is leaving reviews for individuals a thing now?
Is leaving reviews for individuals a thing now?
A valid and interesting question. Kept brief, perhaps to the detriment of syntax. Overall well written. Recommended. 7/10
Interesting stuff, thanks all - doesn't sound terribly hopeful, does it? 🙁 To address a few of the points made, it's let through an agent, and the contract has specific clauses advising them that the property must be left as it was found, to check with us before making changes (we don't mind them decorating, just leave it as they found it so we don't have to try and let it with some kind of art nouveau decoration going on!) and specifically that there shouldn't be any wallpapering (been there before... 🙁 ). Must look into getting a guarantor...
The next tenants seem really nice, young couple - despite the state the flat was left in, we've had tons of interest, so I would think we're slightly below market rate, but haven't yet raised the rent with a sitting tenant, don't particularly intend to unless inflation goes through the roof.
You don’t mention when you last changed carpets and redecorated etc?
It had been let freshly decorated when they moved in three years ago (we expect to have to do that), carpets replaced in living room and hall maybe a year before that? Carpet in the bedroom probably another 18 months older - not sure what the relevance is, whether newer carpets are iron-proof or tenants are allowed to singe older carpets? 🙂
‘Rent barely pays more than the mortgage’ as someone who spent ten years trapped in the rental market, paying more than a mortgage and getting nothing for it, simply because I came out of a poor (by European standards anyway) family not a rich one I struggle to empathise with that bit and ‘losing’ £1500 to be honest. I’m not sure you’ve got the shittier end of the deal there
I hear you - my parents never owned a home or had money, the flat is the one I bought when they passed and I had to move out of the house they rented, I have every sympathy for people looking to get out of renting, and it was only the slack regulation of the pre-2008 market that allowed me to do it, I'd have had no chance if I were in the same situation with today's market. That £1500 I've lost is still a chunk of money to me, though, I'd rather have it than not have it!
Have they a facebook page you can leave a scathing review on ?. Public naming and shaming seems to work well these days
Heh! I did have a quick look but couldn't see them - there was post for two other people as well as the tenants last time I was there, maybe I'll have a browse for them too. Must have been a squeeze, 4 adults and a child in a 1 bed flat!
That £1500 I’ve lost is still a chunk of money to me, though
Of course, and I’ll say it again, my comment wasn’t personal to you, ‘accidental landlord’ is a good term used above
Had you started the post with ‘in one of my 16 slum-style flats’ the response may have been different 😬
My mother rents and will be completely effed if she manages to reach retirement age. She has a terrible medical condition and works long shifts dealing with difficult, at times violent young adults with severe learning disabilities. How someone can have to do that and not be paid enough to own a roof to put over their head is absolutely appalling. Meanwhile middle class people buy up houses to increase their property portfolio and make sure their kids get a better start than everyone else. Not that those people are at fault, of course that’s what they want! It’s the allowing it to happen that is out of order
In case you can’t tell it’s something I’m on the fence about 😂
I hear you, dude - something's wrong somewhere. 🙁
It’s the allowing it to happen that is out of order
Its the fact that 40 years of governments - including 13 Labour years or whatever it was - have failed to provide adequate, affordable, quality secure housing for the significant number of the population who need it.
It's the biggest single factor that could change UK society for the better in the next generation, but none of the short term political bastards has the balls to invest now to see the longer term savings 10-20 years down the line.
On the other side of the argument I lived next to a guy with 27 kids, not all in the same house but a good dozen of them and their kids in the 4 bedroom house. It was a privately owned place 'rented' out through the council to him and the clan
They (the ones I met) were utter scumbags and the place was a tip on the outside, the 7ish year old daughter would regularly run around the road at 1AM calling her Dad a fat c*** (spoiler alert: he was).
When they moved out (council got them a bigger house) contractors started turning up and they had to completely gut the house. I have no idea whether the council covers that but I can imagine if that house belonged to someone with a mortgage on it with no other financial backup that could have gone very wrong. It was about a year before it was ready to be rented out again
That is poor showing from your tenants. I’d always want a guarantor.
You don’t mention when you last changed carpets and redecorated etc?
It had been let freshly decorated when they moved in three years ago (we expect to have to do that), carpets replaced in living room and hall maybe a year before that? Carpet in the bedroom probably another 18 months older – not sure what the relevance is, whether newer carpets are iron-proof or tenants are allowed to singe older carpets? 🙂
There are recommended maximum duration that a re-carpet or decoration should be done zone dependent, I think it's an ARLA thing can't remember but it's worth considering if you did decide it wasn't fair you have to replace etc...
I only consider it not fair because they put an iron-shaped burn mark in the corner, then parked a wooden sideboard on top of it. Fair wear and tear is fair wear and tear, but that was taking the proverbial. Not, however, the worst thing they did! 🙂
I asked the letting agent about guarantors - the new tenants have no credit issues and exceed the income requirements so don't need one. Can I insist anyway...?
You can insist but if I were the prospective tenant that would discourage me from renting from you.
Can you ask for a higher deposit? I had to give extra on my first place on the basis that we were 3x 18-21 year old males. I thought it was pretty unfair at the time but now see the reasoning 😂
Can you ask for a higher deposit?
Under the Tenant Fees Act 2019, deposits are capped at 5 weeks rent, or 6 weeks if annual rent exceeds £50k
does anyone know much about pursuing these kind of sums through the small claims courts?
I'm sorry to hear this all. I've been there. I'm £6.6k out of pocket.
My experience in Scotland:
We had to wait to serve eviction in papers for three months. Add in anothe two months for them to faff and fuss. Book the Sherrif's Men (Bailiffs), turn up early one morning to find they left the day before, knowing what was coming knocking.
Place was wrecked, rubbish everywhere, carpets and furniture so filthy they needed throwing.
I'm now 6 months rent down, full redocorate, full carpets, new furniture. And I can't advertise or let it while I get that all done.
Tenants the day after call the council landlord overseeing people and tell them I'm letting the place to the 6 families and the place is full of rubbish. I get summoned to show the council officers the place. I'm facing upto £10k fine if paperwork or flat isn't up to standard. That feels pretty shitty. Thankfully the council saw the skip filling up, the (thankfully left behind in the meter cupboard) tenant pack, the emails and texts and believed I'm a good landlord.
We go to Sherrif's court on small claims. This took three months.
In court the tenant lied through his teeth. Having read my evidence folder and heard from me, the Sherrif was having none of it and gave tenant a right ear bending.
I'm just over £6k owed, minus £550 deposit.
We were forced to go and make arrangements for repayment there and then in an ante-room of the court. £10 a week...ffs. We can't take any property because a TV is a human right, laptop, van etc is all his business.
Have a guess what - the first month's payment arrives. The court have asked me to report which I do that that payments have started.
I've never seen anything beyond that first payment.
I could have paid more Sheffiffs men and court fee to try and enforce. To what purpose though? I can't force money out of them.
In the meantime, new tenants move in to the redecorated flat and public hallway. I had three lots of superglued locks and graffiti engraved on the front door of the flat (the old tenants initials...) Causing another few bills and new tenants to move out after the 6 months minimum.
As this all happened, the tenant, partner and baby now become 'homeless'. Local housing association puts them in one of the brand new flats in the middle of Aberfeldy. They get a grant to furnish it (because they had nothing, having smashed up what little they had and left it piled up in my flat a month earlier).
6 months later a friend in Aberfeldy reports the tenant and family just enjoyed a fortnight in the sun and he's bought a shiny car.
Meanwhile I spend all my savings fixing up the flat, and family_oab enjoy a house swap with friends an hour up the road for our holidays.
Never be a landlord. The cards are stacked against you unless you want to go illegal.
Never deal with Jamie Bell fencing in Aberfeldy either.
Anyone want to buy a three bed flat in Aberfeldy with mountain views and nice neighbours? It's never failed to let. £130k. Ono.
That sucks @Matt_outandabout
@Pondo - if it's let through an agent you want to know why there wasn't a guarantor in the first place tbpfh.
I'd insist on one - any reasonable tenant won't give a monkeys. If the agent says "the landlord has been burned by a bad tenant skipping out, so now insists that a guarantor is made available for that eventuality. It's not *you* of course, we expect things to go swimmingly with you".
If a tenant gets put off by that 1) alarm bells and 2) there's plenty more tenants who will see both sides of the equation.
The other thing is - your agents are sh1t. You want photographic evidence of the inside of the house when they do their annual checks - they should email you the photos (no need for a formally written report - but photos taken on a phone are so easy) and give you a run-down of any problems that may need looking at.
They've clearly failed you - so I'd be going to them with a grievance since you're paying them for this service.
I’d insist on one – any reasonable tenant won’t give a monkeys.
I certainly would. And I'm a reasonable person not an irresponsible child. I manage my own finances. Who would want to guarantor me even if I was shameless enough to ask? I mean, what's in it for them? Or is this an assumption that all renters are ****less young people from wealthy families.
Another thing that needs banning.
I certainly would. And I’m a reasonable person not an irresponsible child.
I would you dispute that you're a reasonable person - or you'd look at it from the landlord's perspective as well as your own.
It's no skin off your nose to give a guarantor that you're never going to use - and you give your landlord - that doesn't know you from adam and has potentially been burned by bad tenants before - a bit of peace of mind and confidence.
If you object to something so harmless before you even enter into a tenancy agreement I don't want you anywhere near my property. I'm already imagining the arguments in circumstances that are sort of 50-50 where both a landlord and tenant might reasonably come to an arrangement.
If you consider giving a landlord peace of mind a step too far then you don't get considered as one of my tenants tbpfh.
Who would want to guarantor me even if I was shameless enough to ask? I mean, what’s in it for them?
If you haven't got a long list of mates or family who'd go "of course I'll be your guarantor, I trust you, no biggie" - without having to get something out of it, then that's alarm-o-matic.
If your friends and family don't trust you not to skip out on rent then I certainly don't.
Not everyone has a guarantor available. I see both sides as I am a landlord and have been a tennant, at the same time and independently. I am not sure there is an easy solution or that there even is one. What I have done is spoken to previous landlord to get a reference from them. Obviously people can fake this but it's not bad method.
I know many people don't like landlords but and there are plenty of bad ones but it's not easy money and has considerable risks involved.
I don't see why not @TheBrick. I've been a tenant, am a landlord. I can't forsee circumstances where, if you're trustworthy, you haven't a single friend or family who'll say "yeah, I'll be your guarantor".
Maybe I'm missing something. Maybe there's an edge case where a completely trustworthy and solvent person doesn't have a single person to vouch for them (which is all being a guarantor really is).
But in general? No guarantor, no entry. Sorry. I've been burned myself and watched a friend get *very* badly burned by trying to help someone.
I'm simply not rich enough to soak up the possibility of bad tenants without taking concrete action to de-risk my own situation.
I’m simply not rich enough to soak up the possibility of bad tenants without taking concrete action to de-risk my own situation.
Sell the property then
I've been in a similar position with £6k damage.
We had a guarantor on the contract, threatened small claims action and got paid in full.
Despite what others have said, threatening and being prepared to go through with legal action, can work.
I don’t see why not @TheBrick. I’ve been a tenant, am a landlord. I can’t forsee circumstances where, if you’re trustworthy, you haven’t a single friend or family who’ll say “yeah, I’ll be your guarantor”
I am afraid to say there are many situations. People don't all live a in well connected bubble of comfortable mates.
On top of that offering to guarantee someone is a big ask, It's massive legal commitment. If I had a trustworthy mate and I was only just making my own rent or mortgage and living expenses it's a big risk, it's a big risk even with a a bit of a buffer that I have. Taking on the responsibility for your mate who may loose their job though no fault of their own could leave you in the shit. I'd let this hypothetical mate crash round, I'd open-ended loan him what I could afford to lose but garaurentee their rent I am not sure.
It's not like spotting a mate a £100 quid as he / she is broke. There are countless stories of best mates doing one when push comes to shove on money as if they are ****ed enough they can't make rent they will be desperate and desperate people do desperate things. I'd rather help them out should the situation arise as much as I can at the time than be a guarantor for some situation arising and I don't know what my position will be away the time.
I don’t see why not @TheBrick. I’ve been a tenant, am a landlord. I can’t forsee circumstances where, if you’re trustworthy, you haven’t a single friend or family who’ll say “yeah, I’ll be your guarantor”
Really? What planet do you live on?
So you think that everyone has mates, and those mates are always in a financial position to spot a few grand in case they can’t pay their rent?
Also, it's not just about the tenant being trustworthy. If the landlord screws the tenant then by extension the guarantor has a good chance of also getting screwed.
if you’re trustworthy, you haven’t a single friend or family who’ll say “yeah, I’ll be your guarantor”
Lol, I've got many friends that would vouch for me. The point is - I wouldn't bloody ask them. Mainly because it's a big ask as others have pointed out. But also, it's demeaning for any tenant to have to do this. Not to mention some people might not have friends and family for all types of reasons. Also, if you look at it from the person being asked point of view; landlords in general don't exactly have the most upstanding reputation. If a mate asked me I'd be worried about being harangued for cash by some suspicious little grubby steptoe type, or downright dodgy criminal sort. Maybe if it was all above board and more regulated... I understand what you're saying regarding peace of mind, but surely this is what insurance and good vetting is for? Either that or leave the landlording to the councils and housing association and get a job 😉
But anyway, I'm not arguing against you demanding a guarantor, more the practise in general.