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I'm curious to know the views of other teachers and non-teachers on this.
I've worked in a number of schools in different areas of Scotland and over the last couple of years behaviour that used to be very rare indeed appears to have become commonplace.
I'm talking about serious stuff such as physical assault, verbal abuse and all manner of what I'll call technology/social media related incidents. Properly off the scale stuff like kids watching hardcore abuse porn in class and recording teachers to make false allegations alongside all the usual cyber bullying etc.
It feels like it has become normalised and there is no end in sight.
Obviously there's the whole mobile phones thing but it's much wider than that.
From a teachers point of view there has been a huge change in how behaviour is tackled. Sanctions such as detentions and exclusions have gone and in many schools the only thing that is done is to sit down and chat with pupils about their behaviour. While that can be effective in some situations it has the unintended consequence of teaching pupils that everything is up for discussion and negotiable.
A colleague who has a degree in psychology has the view that we will look back to our approach at this time and ask WTF were we thinking.
What are your thoughts and experiences of this?
Not a teacher, but looking at the general general attitude of kids these days I think it's down to lack of parenting (some parents seem to think that teachers and other people should parent their kids for them), lack of discipline (both home and the school environment - not blaming the teachers, but the way the system has evolved over the years - I can still remember being smacked at school - only ever happened once!).
It seemed to change after lock down - we noticed at both our kids schools the shift in attitude in both kids and parents - and not in a good way.
It's a huge part of the reason we chose Independent Grammar School for daughters secondary education - and they diagnosed her dyslexia within about 10 minutes where her primary school said she wasn't....
Step son was already in GCSE's at local High School during COVID.
COVID had an impact for sure. Some kids basically went feral for months and it broke a long established pattern of just going to school and made not going to school more acceptable in some ways. However, there's heaps more to it.
Poor parenting has always been a thing but how it manifests and what we're meant to do about it has changed. In Scotland at least there is a strong expectation that schools try to fix the damage of poor parenting which is unrealistic.
There's also the issue of resourcing. Inclusion policies were really just getting underway when I started teaching and we were promised that although there would be more challenging pupils in classes there would also be supports. Those supports have gradually been eroded until we're in a situation where we have huge numbers of pupils with needs in mainstream and less support than ever before.
I recall kids giving teachers abuse when I was at school, including physical although that was rare. Kids behaving badly isn’t new, physical punishment had no effect on kids except teach them it’s ok to assault people. The mobile phones and social media side of if it of course is new, but a lot of schools seem to banning them during school hours now.
A question I'd like to ask is are there any schools in difficult areas that are getting this stuff right?
Schools caring more about attendance stats keeps kids on site, schools desperate to appear high up arbitrary league tables makes for exam factories, wanting to ape private schools forces naff uniform rules and bigger schools with sprawling catchment means many pupils are reliant of transport so after school detentions are a no no, social media means friction between pupils is 24/7. Whatever the answer it is will need more than a desire to return to the 1950s which seems to be the current approach.
I'm very pleased to be well clear of it, especially dodging the covid bullet.
I recall kids giving teachers abuse when I was at school, including physical although that was rare.
The difference now is in how it's handled. I've seen instances of serious physical assault that lead to a week's exclusion which is solely for the purpose of getting a risk assessment in place around the pupil. Unfortunately these are often not followed due to resourcing issues or even if they are, repeat assaults still occur as the pupils are still in the same environment. In days of yore this would have been handled very differently and there would have been other options for where that pupil is educated.
Schools caring more about attendance stats keeps kids on site,
This is a huge pressure from the very top down in Scotland.
Inclusion policies were really just getting underway when I started teaching and we were promised that although there would be more challenging pupils in classes there would also be supports.
To me the main question is why are there more challenging pupils?
What's changed in society (or genetics) that's brought this about?
Is it that any kid with 'bad behaviour' is just diagnosed as "on the spectrum" as it's an easy answer and doesn't actually solve an issue - just create a bigger one.
Similar issues from friends still involved in Scouting.
I'd trace it back to the loss of family support/Surestart under austerity. Parents that struggled or had no support or role models were left with nothing.
There are fewer boundaries/consequences now. Either parents don't seem to know how to set them or don't want to. Parents also are just as guilty as kids at being hooked on phones and not interacting with their kids how I would consider "appropriately".
Maybe, with more kids being identified as being on the spectrum, there is a reluctance to take a tougher line with kids? Very much personal opinion.
From kids I've known as our two have grown up, kids involved in structured activities - sports, youth clubs (we have a church led one in the village), Scouting, cadets etc are much better behaved, level than those without those opportunities. Local police have seen a 50% reduction in anti-social behaviour by getting kids involved at a local gym/boxing club.
Invest in kids and families from birth, and you'll save costs and problems in the longer term.
To me the main question is why are there more challenging pupils?
What's changed in society (or genetics) that's brought this about?
Is it that any kid with 'bad behaviour' is just diagnosed as "on the spectrum" as it's an easy answer and doesn't actually solve an issue - just create a bigger one
There's all manner of theories on that one. I blame paracetamol. 🙂
Diagnosis for a lot of needs has improved which obviously increases the number with labels.
It's harder to unpick whether the actual numbers have increased. One of our educational psychologists thinks that the number of premature babies surviving is having an impact as many of them will continue to have cognitive and behavioural issues even if they are physically healthy.
In some schools nearly 50% of pupils have an identified need of some sort.
Parent of a 14 year old here
Much of this just stems from parents who have spent the last 10+ years plonking their kids in front of screens to avoid having to interact with them, I have a degree of sympathy, children are relentlessly exhausting and when both parents work and have very little remaining mental bandwidth that big 'go away and leave me alone' button looks mighty tempting. Especially during the Covid years.
Banning smart phones for under 16's and maybe under 18's would be a good start. That seems to be the conduit for an awful lot of the worst of this.
The boy's got a Nokia brick that works for safety and arranging things but keeps him out of much of the toxic nonsense. I have no intention of changing that any time soon, much to his disgruntlement.
I am in a very privileged position to work in a school where the behaviour is exemplary. Yes, kids have the odd lapse into unthinking self orientation (teenagers - that's the default MO!), but on the whole they are a truly lovely group of people to be around. But.....it's at the top end of fee paying and very international (40% UK based and the rest from 46 different nations) school. Most kids are clearly from wealthy background with a good dollop of students (10%) on grants and bursars for some very very normal backgrounds (though you have to something about you to get that scholarship so are hardly a fair representation of the real world either). What is striking to me (this was not my background growing up by a long way) is how little 'privilege' they display or expect. Yet are exposed to just as much social media nonsense as most kids (not totally true - the control 'we' have over screen time and access to their phone and other electronic devices is much more than most). The sanctions for getting stuff wrong are not that compelling (losing complete access to your phone for 24h/48h/a week being the most dreaded) - it's still mostly conversations. It's a long time since I heard a teacher shout and the atmosphere is colligate and respectful in both directions. It is not an environment where good behaviour is generated by fear. They are busy though - essentially timetabled 0800-2030 Monday to Friday, 0800-1600 Saturday and a couple of hours on a Sunday. Maybe that's part of the secret source.
It's a real conundrum. They are getting a better education, not because of facilities or quality of teachers (fun fact - I earn £3K less than if I worked at the local academy) - but because they collectively allow themselves to be educated to a higher standard. I've toyed with going back into state education, because in many ways I'm a bit uncomfortable doing what I'm doing and want to give a bit more back to kids with a 'normal' background before I hang up my teaching boots....but I'm going to need some convincing it's an environment I want to put myself back into.
but because they collectively allow themselves to be educated to a higher standard.
One of the big beefs I have with how the small number of problem pupils are dealt with is the impact on the learning of others.
are dealt with
Is that what you really have a problem with? Is it not that you have a problem with the way they act? If they acted differently there would be no dealing to be done. How you behave is a choice. How you are dealt with, opportunities that will appear or disappear and how you are treated by others are merely the incentivisers.
Is that what you really have a problem with? Is it not that you have a problem with the way they act? If they acted differently there would be no dealing to be done.
I'd settle for either them not acting the way they do or being dealt with in such a way that they don't ruin it for others.
I focus on the how they're dealt with part because that's the bit a school has most control over.
but because they collectively allow themselves to be educated to a higher standard
Yes, they want to be there and they want to learn. What happens if you replace them all with kids who don't want to be there and don't want to learn what is being thrown onto them, i.e. academic stuff that may not be suited to them.
I suspect poverty has a large part to play, plus the closure of sure start centers and the like.
Yes, they want to be there and they want to learn. What happens if you replace them all with kids who don't want to be there and don't want to learn what is being thrown onto them, i.e. academic stuff that may not be suited to them.
Very true. I'd like to think most want to be there and most are happy and that is a huge huge part of the win. But as a collective they are not academic - it's not selective (well obviously it is, by bank balance). MidYIS scores for some of my groups this year are the lowest I've ever taught right back into my days of teaching in some pretty challenging parts of Portsmouth. Yes, in a year group there are a few applying to medicine or Oxbridge but there are a significant number with profound academic issues and neurodiversity problem. A substantial number won't leave GCSE with 5 grades of 4 and above desire the positive atmosphere.
I guess it's fair to say that 'we' can't take all thd credit for the atmosphere - a good part of that was won at home before they arrived. To pay what you pay to send you kid here you have to value education as a parent (yes, no doubt we also get a good number palming off parenting to us like they probably did to a nanny when they were younger and that's what money buys you). I'm in no way saying that only parents with money care - I'm really not. But sending you kid to us is a very big decision - there are easier and more convenient choices as a parent. That helps.
teaching by consent?
I suppose that's one way of putting it, yes.
None of us will learn a lot, no matter how much we're forced to sit there unless we want to. The number of compulsory online learning modules I've learnt zero from because I just didn't want to and just blagged the test at the end with Google on a 2nd screen. On insets I've dozed through. Horses and water and all that.
Not sure its a recent thing as when I went to a school in the UK in the early 80's we had some kids with serious issues that were somewhat violent they were thrown out eventually, as our school was the last stop (deprived area) that finished them for life.
I think most became scaffolders.
@convert I guess the big positive influence with the kids there is that they can see hope in their futures - whether from the opportunity to be there or from parents who are doing well, or both. Hope and ambitions are so important.
Society is skewing towards hope for fewer and fewer people and when you see a society that offers little hope and is making little to no effort to convince you otherwise (or offers only false hope via being a SM star, or the scapegoating and polarisation of the FR, etc) .. it's no wonder kids are chaotic. It's been heading this way for a long time, 20 years? Whether post-Thatcher or financial crash austerity, it's been building a while and perhaps covid was just a catalyst.
I've seen instances of serious physical assault that lead to a week's exclusion which is solely for the purpose of getting a risk assessment in place around the pupil.
This interests me because my partner works in a SEND academy and has been injured by challenging pupils in the past. Now they get a little more accommodation because of their mental capacity to deal with stressful situations, but if it were a mainstream pupil do the police not get involved? If the school aren't doing so for reasons of reputation, or whatever, what is stopping an injured teacher from doing so, because I bloody would.
If the school aren't doing so for reasons of reputation, or whatever, what is stopping an injured teacher from doing so, because I bloody would.
I know of multiple incidents where the police have been called but nothing ever seems to come of it. I think there should be a referral to the children's reporter but I don't know how often that is actually done.
Now they get a little more accommodation because of their mental capacity to deal with stressful situations, but if it were a mainstream pupil do the police not get involved?
There are plenty of mainstream pupils who also have identified needs.
Much of this just stems from parents who have spent the last 10+ years plonking their kids in front of screens to avoid having to interact with them
A friend of mine is a primary school teacher who looks after reception and year 1 (5-6 year olds). She frequently complains that these children lack basic skills that are having to be taught them - socializing, playing with others, inventing play, holding crayons or paint brushes - apparently it's no longer uncommon for kids to have never used these before school. Reading ability was a problem when i was a governor in school a decade or more ago.
This is what austerity does.
This is what austerity does.
Spot on.
Bet they can navigate a gui tho
you see a society that offers little hope and is making little to no effort to convince you otherwise
No doubt there is something in this.
But....to play devil's advocate for a moment....
I can't imagine a UK society with less hope than a Welsh mining valley community in Thatcher's Britain. I remember going on a rugby tour with my North Walian team to such a community as a primary aged kid and staying with a local family. It was a real eye opener. Parents with no jobs and little chance of a job, no future for your whole village and every adult in your life. No chance of you getting a job and being taught in near derelict buildings...... No internet so your ability to see there was a world beyond what your own life experiences told you was a thing was more limited. Were the child behaviour issues there off the scale? I don't think they were...
Very timely post.
Chaucer is a poor school in a poor neighbourhood of Sheffield, how poor you ask... They tried to sell me some of their PE equimpment at the open evening. It was run by the Tapton academy who also run 3 of the best schools in alright areas of sheffield but its been taken over by Mercia who run one of the best performing schools in the country, in a nice area of Sheffield. Mercia school is run like a military boot camp, amongst other things, they dont finish till 5, free play is discouraged and educational passtimes are basically manditory. This strict enviroment doesnt work for everybody but it clearly works for the majority of people who go there and its vastly over subscribed every year. A friend of mine said "it'll pump out 50 CEOs a year but none of them will have had a childhood"
It will be very interesting to see in a few years how moving from one sucsessful management team to a very different sucsessfull management team works out. Personally I think Tapton wanted rid and Mercia now have a point to prove so it'll be difficult to really say what worked.
My own view on behavour problems, its the parents fault, but then I'm not a single parent, with multiple kids, working two jobs, living in the arse of nowhere with a family of people who have never had any oppertunities and surrounded by other parents who couldnt care less, so I'm very aware of how lucky I am.
But....to play devil's advocate for a moment....
I can't imagine a society with less hope than a Welsh mining valley community in Thatcher's Britain. I remember going on a rugby tour with my North Walian team to such a community as a primary aged kid. It was a real eye opener. Parents with no jobs and little chance of a job, no future for your whole village and every adult in your life. No chance of you getting a job and being taught in near derelict buildings......Were the child behaviour issues there off the scale? I don't think they were...
Good point. Did community stand in for hope, maybe discipline was better, or did a lack of SM showing the alternatives or exaggerating differences help? Perhaps it's generational and the adults coped but it has an impact that's passed on and compounds, and current young generation are growing up with lower social or coping skills. Idk - I shouldn't get into speculating bc I don't know anything about all this beyond some ideas of why I was disruptive at school.
Sport, bikes and skateboards, creativity, community groups, all things that you don't want to lose as a kid so they can help regulate behaviour or teach outside of academic situations, but I get the impression are rarer now that a screen provides easier recreation time. And it's not the screen itself, we had Donkey Kong, Ataris and C64s and spent hours on them, they were just games. What's changed is the app's connectivity/communication and algorithms providing almost an alternative reality - judge life against the version of it on the app rather than the version of it you're living. Bad actors more easily heard and given too much credibility. Parents and kids affected by it.
Were the child behaviour issues there off the scale? I don't think they were...
Probably not, but that was 3 generations ago.
Probably not, but that was 3 generations ago.
Why would that matter, if what we're talking about is juvenile behaviour related to 'hope'? Unless you are saying that hope is something we feel we are entitled to more of now than back then....
My point was that whilst hope is clearly a huge driver in behaviour (as my work experience is a testament) it can't be the only factor. Plenty of generations of kids in pockets of the country have grown up with **** all hope for generations. Not saying that's good, or even acceptable but looking forward to a shit life has been something some people (and most people in some areas) have been confronted with forever.
A friend of mine is a primary school teacher who looks after reception and year 1 (5-6 year olds). She frequently complains that these children lack basic skills that are having to be taught them - socializing, playing with others, inventing play, holding crayons or paint brushes - apparently it's no longer uncommon for kids to have never used these before school. Reading ability was a problem when i was a governor in school a decade or more ago.
This is what austerity does.
IMO It's lazy parenting not austerity.
The Deliveroo generation who sit on their arses, never leave the house and expect everything to be handed to them then push the blame away.
IMO It's lazy parenting not austerity.
Those two things are not mutually exclusive as causes of poor behaviour.
The Deliveroo generation who sit on their arses, never leave the house and expect everything to be handed to them then push the blame away
I was hoping we might avoid this sort of lazy generalisation.
personally, it all went downhill with Grange Hill.
seriously, it’s all down to money. Given that kids are pretty much the same in terms of educational ability and behaviour, you’re paying the posh schools to address any developmental deficits.
state schools don’t have the £££
There’s plenty of scope for change that needn’t cost megabucks.
in primary schools, I would focus on establishing proper fitness and mobility regimes that can be continued through to adulthood. Back in my day, you’d have kids sent out to various sports, but without any strategy to tackle any shortfalls in fitness.
acute asthmatics sent out on cross country runs…kids without a clue about football trying to play the beautiful game when they could have been doing aerobics and flexibility training.
a lot of the ‘stuff’ we learned at primary schools didn’t need to be strung out over seven years.
a lot of kids simply aren’t equipped for secondary education when they leave primary school. Maybe they could be sent to a ‘midway’ school for 12-14 year olds that can ensure they attain a proper grasp of maths and English before they tackle their GCSE’s, as well as the behavioral stuff.
afair, the Scottish teachers union (EIS), rejected cameras in class.
they’re probably regretting that.
but the whole topic of mobile phones in school is moot.
smar****ches are the future.
IMO It's lazy parenting not austerity.
There used to be systems in place to identify and assist the 'lazy parents'; pre-school kiddies clubs libraries, after school clubs, there used to cash in schools and councils for all this sort of stuff.
All gone
Yeah, some parents can rightfully be blamed for their kids, but its a teeny minority. For most (who struggle as parents) they just need some help and support, if they get that it makes a massive difference to the behavior of kids.
afair, the Scottish teachers union (EIS), rejected cameras in class.
they’re probably regretting that
What the unions spoke against was the filming of lessons so that pupils could access them online.
It doesn't sound like an outrageous proposal but the way it was being touted was a first step towards teaching much higher numbers than current maximum class sizes which is obviously a workload and quality issue.
A friend of mine is a primary school teacher who looks after reception and year 1 (5-6 year olds). She frequently complains that these children lack basic skills that are having to be taught them - socializing, playing with others, inventing play, holding crayons or paint brushes - apparently it's no longer uncommon for kids to have never used these before school. Reading ability was a problem when i was a governor in school a decade or more ago.
This is what austerity does.
Austerity doesn't force kids in front of TV or phone screens and doesn't stop parents from reading to their kids. It also doesn't stop kids from receiving colouring books, paints and crayons for every birthday or Xmas from birth to the point they are too old for them.
I'd be interested in how frequently they are seeing these problems because they weren't being reported when my kids (youngest now 14, so not that long ago) were going through school in fairly poor schools in Wales.
Spin - my kids (youngest left last summer end of S5) went to a "better school" than I did, but some of the things you refer to are more common here than they were in my school 30+ yrs ago. Some were more common than even when her big brother was at school.
I think there was definitely a covid factor. Of course it could also be a social media factor.
Assault on a teacher is a criminal offence, it should be treated as such.
The most significant verbal abuse of a teacher would also be a criminal offence, and should be treated as such.
I have no idea why any senior school leadership would not treat criminal offences against their staff seriously.
Porn is a real issue in schools. When my daughter was ~13 it became obvious that she was really hating some classes. We extracted from her that there were a group of boys who spent the entire class discussing porn and trying to get her to join in the discussion. She wouldn't raise it with the school, so I did. I was amazed that they were fairly unsurprised. The response really wasn't that great either - the solution they suggested was for her to tell the class teacher when it was happening! FFS what 13 yr old is going to walk to the front of the class and say "Sir, they aren't discussing the work, they are asking me if I'd rather watch two women or two guys".
Social media / tech related incidents - not sure what you are alluding to but I did hear some things locally which seem like *some* teachers are pretty stupid with this stuff - teachers with public instagram accounts who accepted follows from school pupils! But I've also heard of at least one incident where a teachers face was superimposed on porn and shared around the school. The pupil did get moved school for that but again, it probably amounts to a grossly offensive electronic communication and should have been reported to the children's panel. If it was privacy/secrecy around that means everyone thinks all he did was move to a nearby school.
Of course school management are not working in isolation - they answer to the council, but in no other workplace would service users be able to assault, abuse or stalk you outside the workplace and just be shrugged off. I'm a bit surprised Unions haven't had more effect - if they can't do it through their collective bargaining power an employment tribunal or suing a school for failing to protect its staff from harm would focus minds.
I like the idea that its Thatcher's fault, but lets be honest the pupils of her predecessors whos greatest life aspiration was to follow their father down a mine and earn a survival wage didn't exactly have much going for them either. We can also blame Osborne for austerity, and closing Surestart - but I think spin is in Scotland where there was austerity but Surestart was an english initiative.
Social media / tech related incidents not sure what you are alluding to
The stuff that followed that label; watching porn and recording/videoing teachers.
Porn is a real issue in schools.
One of the most depressing things of the last few years in teaching has been the increase in misogyny I've seen. Something I honestly thought was on the way out is back with a vengeance.
Banning smart phones for under 16's and maybe under 18's would be a good start. That seems to be the conduit for an awful lot of the worst of this.
This winds me up. Regardless of what one thinks of technology, we can't pin this all on phones; and once we ban them, perhaps then we'll have to realise that they weren't actually the problem, and adults will have to realise a lot of it is on them.
Anyway...
I guess one way of framing it is to look at, I dunno, a 20/70/10 split. 70% of kids are broadly 'normal' - whatever normal is; 20% are ridiculously well-behaved; 10% are within the group we'd call "absolutely mental". Maybe the 10 and 20 are the other way round.
I wouldn't know but... have the middle 70% got measurably worse than when we were kids?
My gut feel is that there is less (let's say) fear of your parents. Depending on the family, there was a clip round the ear; there was being properly bawled out; loss of whatever treats or privileges. Whatever, for most of that 70%, you didn't want to get on the wrong side of your parents; and you didn't want your teachers sending home a report. Kids now feel much more empowered; they feel they have much more ability to do whatever they want with no repercussions and no reason to feel that they should instead answer to their parents/ teachers/ other authority.
Related to this, it feels like there's a lot less parenting; or a lot less, I dunno, confrontation with kids, of the type of "look, sometimes kids have to shut up and let the adults do what the adults want" or "I don't care what you've seen online/ what your friends say, you're not doing it". Parents spend much more time on their phones (but then dads always sat and read the paper in some unfindable part of the house); and it's easier than ever to leave the kid to watch TV/ ipad/ tiktok.
Have the 10% got even more mental? What are the punishments or responses to that behaviour?
As a parent I wouldn't want to slap my kid; but at the same time it feels that there are fewer sanctions for kids misbehaving these days than when we were kids - albeit that none of us have any ability to be objective about the past.
My gut feel is that there is less (let's say) fear of your parents.
I would say the issue is more that parents and teachers have less influence on young people than in the past. And what's replaced that personal influence? Yup, social media. So we're back to the phones thing. 🙂
What are the punishments or responses to that behaviour?
There are no punishments in most schools. The responses where I work tend to be having a bit of a chat or getting the parents in for a bit of a chat. And of course they may or may not turn up.
I would say the issue is more that parents and teachers have less influence on young people than in the past. And what's replaced that personal influence? Yup, social media. So we're back to the phones thing.
OK, I think your first point makes sense. Second one I can go with.
But saying that, and using it as lead into "QED, we must ban kids from social media" is completely arse backwards. Like "my kid refuses to eat vegetables and only eats meat, so the answer is to ban them from meat". No, the answer is to address the fact that they only eat vegetables. I could grudgingly agree to limits on social media (ban under <13s and actually enforce it; ban all 18+ content from kids and enforce it, in-school device limits/ bans etc); but banning it entirely simply leaves another void for the next big thing, rather than actually addressing the root cause, which is that parents and teachers have less influence than in the past.
There are no punishments in most schools. The responses where I work tend to be having a bit of a chat or getting the parents in for a bit of a chat. And of course they may or may not turn up.
Again, back in' day, when I were a lad... the idea of the school calling your parents in for a chat 😱, it was terrifying! I'd frankly rather have the corporal punishment than my parents have to come in!
Which then comes back to the parents - what's changed now, and what's the cause of it?
Porn is a real issue in schools.
It always has been. Its just that it used to be a slightly damp copy of Razzle that you found in a hedge 😀
So, uh, Drizzle
There's no point thinking you can ban smartphone to <16/18s - cigarettes and booze were banned to kids when we grew up and it just made them more interesting and probably addictive. In a world which uses technology we need to teach children how to use it constructively, how to manage it so it doesn't take over your life etc. I'm not sure anyone discussing this on a mountain bike forum during the normal working day can really claim the moral high ground there!
I don't know what happened that phones in classrooms suddenly became a problem. Somehow teachers lost that one by not having the authority - perhaps because when we were young any such stuff would have be confiscated but now a leadership failure means they are terrified of getting in trouble for stealing a phone, or sued if it gets damaged because school management have tip-toed around it for too long.
Porn is a real issue in schools.
It always has been. Its just that it used to be a slightly damp copy of Razzle that you found in a hedge 😀
No I mean a REAL ISSUE. Yes I remember someone having a floppy disc with some grainy VGA images when I was at school, and out of school someone finding a mag in a hedge. It was surreptitious and nobody wanted their parents or teacher to know. It was a "novelty" and amongst older children, I mean this is boys from 11 up (and I've heard stories younger!), watching hd hardcore stuff, in a classroom, whilst teaching is going on. When parents are told - the answer seems to be "what do you expect". When teachers are told they shrug and say "they are 'all' doing it". Then they think what the see in porn is normal and they expect girls to behave like that and want images which get shared etc (again potentially illegal). Part of the problem is the "well we used to try and find a damp copy of Razzle in a hedge" response. Firstly that maybe wasn't ok, but it definitely is nothing like being able to find any type of violent porn you want 24/7 and be quite nonchalant about it.
Why would that matter, if what we're talking about is juvenile behaviour related to 'hope'? Unless you are saying that hope is something we feel we are entitled to more of now than back then....
Lack of hope probably compounds as the generations pass as prospects continue to decline. Meanwhile the infrastructure of the community ages and is neglected. It’s not like time didn’t take its toll on the area. And inter-generational trauma.
personally, it all went downhill with Grange Hill.
mum, is that you? The user name checks out.
Life in a collapsing society.Dregs breeding dregs.This is how the top 0.1% like it. Much easier to hoodwink ignorant morons.
We are basically now a nation of loud uncultivated scum.With my local variant being a loud mouthed are sole!
+1 LAT. Decadent and degenerate are us.With a few honourable exceptions of course.
Porn is for the most part anti-misogynistic.
In the orthodox playboy/ penthouse form, it’s a fairly energetic form of goddess worship.
violent porn is fairly niche.
why do these children express antipathy towards their classmates?
If they have access to that much porn, why do they still feel sexually unfulfilled?
another issue is the lack of interest/ hobbies in both the children and the parents.
The actual time it takes to learn the mandatory stuff (maths/ English), could be postponed until the last four years of primary.
Id change the curriculum at the local FE colleges so that adults would attend in the afternoons and evenings, leaving the mornings for parents and children to attend, learn and become inspired.
What are your thoughts and experiences of this?
Tangential experience second hand, take with small pinch of salt:
Problems start in the home, and they start young.
If they're not looking on track by age 7, the likely outcomes are not great.
Kids falling into that bracket will cause disproportionally more problems later on, and have disproportionally worse life outcomes.
I hasten to add, a lot of this is basically not the kids fault, but that of the environment they start in, which mostly means the parents (and/or wider family) and slightly means the place they live, the food they eat.
Of course even if you fixed every child up with perfect parents and nice places, some would still be badly behaved. Nature / nurture, etc. See also loss of things like sure start.
not blaming the teachers, but the way the system has evolved over the years - I can still remember being smacked at school - only ever happened once!).
Never got hit by anything, but one teacher was a very accurate thrower of pieces of chalk, and one teacher was known to use a blackboard eraser! One gym teacher used an old, very flexible plimsole - that stung, by all accounts!
These huge crowds of kids effectively terrorising shoppers in shopping centres seems to be organised on the socials, and they appear to be unafraid of any kind of repercussions, too.
I’ve no idea what the answer is, though. 🤷🏼♂️
Of course even if you fixed every child up with perfect parents and nice places, some would still be badly behaved.
There's always going to be poor behaviour that's part of growing up and part of the job of teaching but I feel like I've seen a change in the type of behaviour. It's not the old staples like bullying, minor vandalism, horse play and smoking. More kids are just flat refusing to follow instructions, there are more full on meltdowns, more arguing the toss over tiny things and more behaviour directed at the teachers. And then there's the stuff I mentioned earlier like watching porn in class and making false accusations. There seems to have been a bit of a minor epidemic of the latter in a few schools round here lately.
It has massively changed. Been in the game 24years and it's much nastier now.
Yes there was always an undertone at times but it's becoming everyday and every class. I have higher level kids who don't want to study because "it's not fair". Used to be 5% disenfranchised now it's 15-20%. These parents don't care or are straight up aggressive to authority. Education is spending a lot of money on a group of pupils some of whom will benefit but a lot won't.
I do think in 20 years there will be a definite underclass who subsist on benefits and whose kids will not be able to break that cycles (it's already happening).
A lot of success at school is pushed from home and the interest that is taken in the kids and their education. That parenting skill is being lost or not happening. It is a worry but government isn't helping and funding cuts are really biting,.schools are run by managers and not teachers.
It has massively changed. Been in the game 24years and it's much nastier now.
I trained in 2006/7. Up until about 5 years ago I'd never had to fill out a V&A form, I'd only ever had one kid properly swear at me and even that was a bit half hearted. I've now been sworn at a number of times and I've had to use the V&A reporting system on 3 occasions. I've changed schools but the catchments are much the same, if anything some of the ones I worked in pre-pandemic were 'worse'. I also think I've got better at defusing these sorts of situations.
Obviously this could just be down to me being lucky then unlucky but I don't think I'm alone.
They all behave in my lessons 😜
Ex teacher and outdoor instructor, currently have 30 delivery staff in schools and nurseries across the UK most days
It is an issue and it's getting worse.
In my view it's a huge combination of factors. Societal, parenting, lack of nature connection, poor diet, lack of exercise, lack of independence, risk taking and socialisation, and yes a huge slice of technologies enabling this change, addicting children and young people and providing a conduit for deeply harmful material being normalised.
But banning phones or blaming schools is not the answer. It's a wider societal issue that's complex and that's going to be slow to change.
I worry for many young people. And it's the adults who need to change...
It's a wider societal issue
Well yes, and wider society at the moment doesn't offer much hope or inspiration. Who can criticise a child for questioning authority when the leader of one of the most powerful nations on earth is so irrational and the outlook is so gloomy. Who can criticise someone for questioning authority when those who run the country give themselves above inflation pay rises, or fiddle expenses to pay for duck houses, or host parties during covid lockdowns (the list is endless). If you want respect, you have to earn it, whatever your social status, age or position in life, and it starts from the top. There are some good role models out there, but not enough whose voices are heard loudly enough.
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But banning phones or blaming schools is not the answer. It's a wider societal issue that's complex and that's going to be slow to change.
I worry for many young people. And it's the adults who need to change..
Very true.
But to add a bit of balance, staff at our local Subway are today appealing for the two lads on bikes who stopped to help a lady in a wheelchair get into their store to come forward so they can get a free lunch. The good kids need to be recognised and supported
What are your thoughts and experiences of this?
The survival of the fittest. Those who wish to learn and to gain knowledge will behave, whilst those who cannot understand the reason for being at school should be "separated" to let them pass their own time as they wish in a general normal class. i.e. Have an extra hour or so to cater for those which wish to learn. For those who are generally passing time, they should just attend general class or if they wish to attend the "extra" class, they need to behave or they can do their own things as they wish at their own time. This way, the choice is theirs and you are not forcing them to attend "extra" class.
There is no way you can "save" them all. Some will have to learn the hard way in life but at least giving or helping those who wish to learn give you a chance to salvage a total failure in a generation(s).
Not all people/students are meant to be sitting in class learning, coz they are not built that way. Forcing them to learn will only create more troubles for yourself.
If you want respect, you have to earn it, whatever your social status, age or position in life, and it starts from the top.
If you want respect you have to earn it, but it starts at the top? So people have no agency or obligation to try to be decent because others are ****s?
That's the dumbest shit I've read all week and I've been reading DJT truth social posts.
The vast majority of kids are good kids.
One of the most positive ways I've heard the Andrew Tait impact described was not to focus on his followers and how many young men think he's their man, but rather focus on how many don't. The vast majority of young men have been exposed to his shtick and honeyed words and still think he's a prick. Society is not lost.
Having said that I remember my time at school with several kids always causing troubles affecting everyone in class.
They failed their GCSE equivalent and started to learn their own trades for survival.
Fast forward 25 years later, they now earn 3x the average salary as cooks and load sharks. The latter are causing plenty of misery for people but that's how they survive.
The survival of the fittest. Those who wish to learn and to gain knowledge will behave, whilst those who cannot understand the reason for being at school should be "separated" to let them pass their own time as they wish in a general normal class.
Which doesn't work if they do not know there is an off ramp from a life subsisting because education and the opportunities that follow is not an option in the family, house, neighbourhood etc
Which doesn't work if they do not know there is an off ramp from a life subsisting because education and the opportunities that follow is not an option in the family, house, neighbourhood etc
Teach with your best or almighty strength for all (normal or extra hour lesson etc), while the rest is up to those who wish to learn or not learn i.e. their survival choice is their own choosing whatever that may be in whatever environment they are in. Some will notice the urgency of learning while others don't. They are all built differently and teachers cannot save them all.
As the fast east saying goes "if a horse is not thirsty, you cannot force (push its head down) it to drink the water".
So people have no agency or obligation to try to be decent because others are ****s?
That's the dumbest shit I've read all week and I've been reading DJT truth social posts.
Thanks for that stunning example 🙄
Equally dumb - I didn’t say that. Everyone has an obligation to be decent (that’s something you have control of), but the point I was making is that if you are in a position of responsibility you shouldn’t assume respect simply by virtue of that position.
If you can add getting T squared by the whale to this list, we must have gone to the same school.
Never got hit by anything, but one teacher was a very accurate thrower of pieces of chalk, and one teacher was known to use a blackboard eraser! One gym teacher used an old, very flexible plimsole - that stung, by all accounts!
and I've been reading DJT truth social posts.
That makes the point quite well. Do you respect the leader of the US just because he’ll has a position of power? Clearly not. So if you’re a teenager who do you look to for inspiration? Your favourite premier league footballer, your favourite influencer? If it’s the latter, you may get lucky, but there are plenty of examples of influencers who spread false information. I’ve had enough conversations with my teen about DJT and Andrew Tait to last a lifetime.
Much of this just stems from parents who have spent the last 10+ years plonking their kids in front of screens to avoid having to interact with them
This is what austerity does.
Nope, I'd say closer to Hatter. Austerity doesn't dictate parent/child effort and relationships; instead day after day I see kids waiting in our shop tugging and tugging and tugging and tugging at mum's trousers for attention, but Mum's eyes never leave her phone. It's a second or third generation problem of screen (TV, then phone) addiction and the effects are logarithmic.
In the meantime, as per northern soul above, those screens are now being exploited by people with nefarious radicalising intent from every distant horizon of the political spectrum... another issue again.
I think a lot of the behaviour was there 30 years ago, but it sounds more widespread now.
A friend’s dad was a head teacher … until he was shot by an angry parent with an air rifle. PTSD retired him.
My stepdad taught for 25 years at a school in the bottom 3% of GCSE achievements. It was like a war zone - a girl was raped in the toilets. I did work experience there as a 15/16 year old and couldn’t believe what some of the 11 year old kids told me about their lives - one cracker of a kid was watching his dads porn videos all night while his parents were working night shifts. He’d been expelled within a year, but I’ll bet his attention seeking behaviour was precisely because he really did need some attention.
But I do think there’s something to be said for the shift in parenting style these days. Me and all my peers seem to be more like friends with our kids now, probably intentionally shifting away from the disciplinarian style of our parents. That can make it much harder to set boundaries - kids must be confused when their “friends” change mode and demand certain behaviour. I don’t know what the right balance is and I’m actively thinking about it and trying to get it right. If I had additional stressors like having no partner, financial issues, illness, or kids that were heavily peer influenced that would be massively difficult and I’d probably be overwhelmed.