[Closed] BBC news

I wish I had the opportunity to work 12 hours a day at my vocation to earn a 6-figure salary.

Every GP I've ever encountered seemed eminently relaxed.

WIW, you wouldn't struggle to find engineers earning that in office jobs, so why not Dr's having to deal with Jo Public suffering from a sense of entitlement and a scrotal rash?

Engineers aren't on the whole employed by the government, whereas pretty much all GPs are (well no employed per se, but money comes from NHS). So you slap 1% pay increase on GPs and everyone else has to pay through increased tax. Lets be honest there are no poor Dr's in the UK.

Can we please get away from calling GPs NHS or what the NHS pays them.

The NHS does not employ GPs. The NHS has contract for primary care services with thousands of private companies that provide GP services. It is upto these companies, usually owned by some or all of the GPs at the practice, who set the salaries that they and their staff are paid.GPs refused to join the NHS at its inception because they felt that the NHS wouldnt pay them enough.

Exactly, and whilst there are folk in the city and finance sector (blessed with considerably less intelligence, and significantly less study) making orders of magnitude more without the public good of a GP I think there are better targets for us bottom feeders.

You're right of course, you merely have to show up in Bishopgate or Canary Warf clutching a 4 C or above grades at GCSE and a 50M Swimming Badge to be handed a few million pounds of pension fund to play with.

Frankly I'm amazed more people don't do it!

Getting into Banking and Finance is incredibly difficult, the completion for Grad places is brutal, less than half a percent of applicants get a place - when they do they will go through 2 years of on the job training in various departments, less than half will make it to the end - once they've completed it they join about 3 grades higher than if they simply applied for an Admin role at 18 - so they're usually be on par with their peers of the same age - and whilst they'll have 'fast track' on their file it won't count for anything when interviewing for the next promotion - they've simply spent 2 years building their own network. Very few will move into a position of responsibility until they're 30 and they won't be earning 6 figures at that point - very few ever will, but they'll laugh in the face of 12 hour days.

Engineers aren't on the whole employed by the government, whereas pretty much all GPs are (well no employed per se, but money comes from NHS). So you slap 1% pay increase on GPs and everyone else has to pay through increased tax. Lets be honest there are no poor Dr's in the UK.

So are bin collectors, teachers, and the accountant who does the councils spreadhseets. Sould they all be paid less than what they'd earn in the private sector with the same qualifications?

^Getting into Banking and Finance is incredibly difficult, the completion for Grad places is brutal, less than half a percent of applicants get a place - when they do they will go through 2 years of on the job training in various departments, less than half will make it to the end - once they've completed it they join about 3 grades higher than if they simply applied for an Admin role at 18 - so they're usually be on par with their peers of the same age - and whilst they'll have 'fast track' on their file it won't count for anything when interviewing for the next promotion - they've simply spent 2 years building their own network. Very few will move into a position of responsibility until they're 30 and they won't be earning 6 figures at that point - very few ever will, but they'll laugh in the face of 12 hour day

yes! but the only reason they are doing it, is to try and make a lot of money

Isn't that pretty much the reason most of us do our jobs? There's a disproportionate number of Process Engineers in investment banking, they probably put more effort into recruiting us than the Oil and Gas companies! Now I could have gone down that route, but frankly the working conditons sounded horrible with the rewards sometime in the future if you were the 1% who made it that far rather than getting spat out the machine.

You need to add in the value of their pension too, about £1.5m over a working life which is co-incidently more money than you can save in a private pension without attracting high rates of tax on the pension pot.

As per @dragon's post my friend who's a GP chooses to work 3 days a week for about £65k

how many other professions take that long of schooling just to start out?

You are right society has invested massively in their training so that they can earn these fantastic amounts of money. You would think they would be more appreciative eh

WHAT DD said in the main they deserve to be well paid but to hear them moan about it ,when other do more work on the Minimum Wage is, does not elicit any sympathy from me.

GPs refused to join the NHS at its inception because they felt that the NHS wouldnt pay them enough.

For what its worth, my father now considers that politicians have messed up GP contracts to the point where they are paid more than they deserve for what they do.

At work we charge our Service Engineers out to end users at around £1k per day.(Industrial refrigeration)
A good one who does a bit of overseas work can clear £55k+ P/A, if not more.
When put into context, GPs getting £36 per hour doesn't feel that expensive.

My wife can earn £25 per hour doing private tutoring - which involves sitting at someone's dining table helping their kids revise.

So are bin collectors, teachers, and the accountant who does the councils spreadhseets. Sould they all be paid less than what they'd earn in the private sector with the same qualifications?

It's all about budgets and priorities at the end of the day. The UK doesn't have an infinite pot of money, and does anyone think GP's have a bad deal? TBH I don't think teachers do pay wise either, but they should be allowed to work more efficiently.

As someone mentioned above it isn't about pay it's about the complete package. and that includes holidays, pension and other benefits.

Sounds like a reasonable hourly rate too - if not a bit on the low side. There are many IT and business consultants on a lot more than that. Oh and footballers.

pk13 - Member

Not many sparks or plumbers pulling that much after tax

Then again, if you plumb in a sink wrong people don't generally die, and it doesn't take 5 years of university plus 2 years foundation programme plus 3 years GP training to become a plumber.

Sounds like a reasonable hourly rate too - if not a bit on the low side. There are many IT and business consultants on a lot more than that. Oh and footballers

Market forces dictate what we charge - we're benchmarked against our competitors.

However there are others in our wider industry who charge a lot more..

Have you seen the people they have to put up with?

I wouldn't do it for the money.

*shudders*

That's simply not true when you think about it, a Prime Minister can pass a bill to improve water supply quality or reduce industrial accidents and both would have more impact that a single GP.

Yeah but the same can be said of a GP without the team of nurses, hospital support, pharmacists, dieticians etc. how many people would they really save?

I honestly can't believe that people are belittling the role of a GP and suggesting they don't deserve 100k.

Actually, it's STW so I can. 😐

and nobody has managed to name a figure they think they are worth either. It's not just STW it's the usual how dare people earn money crap.

Oh lordy, I'm agreeing with Darcy and junkyard on the same thread.

Nurse! The screens......

[quote="dragon]Engineers aren't on the whole employed by the government...
Not directly employed perhaps but there's a s**t-load of contract engineers (and project managers etc.) working here, in an organisation that is funded by the government, and I know for a fact that most don't make £36/hour. The general range is more like £50-£80 for anyone worth their salt. Or more if there's some management responsibility.

These are contract staff. They can't recruit permies because they can't offer market rates, because they're hampered by civil service style pay scales, union nonsense and fear of news stories saying "OMG the government pays someone £36/hour" ! Somehow contract rates don't get scrutinised and plastered across the news like salaries do.

Paying 36 pounds an hour from the contract budget doesn't necessarily mean the recipient receives 36 pounds.
It's just an accounting tool used to cost the project.
Actual hard cash might be closer to 25.

Souns like somewhere I used to work Sundayjumper... not long term projects on a NW coastline is it?

Then again, if you plumb in a sink wrong people don't generally die

3 years GP training to become a plumber.

You can't compare contract staff to full time government employees based on salary alone. If it is specific defined project then use of contract staff even on high-ish rates probably makes perfect sense. At then end of the project you let them go with no cost to the organisation and no pension liabilities. Bit different from a DR who's been working from 27-63 with a final salary pension, with almost 100% job security.

BigButSlimmerBloke - Member
Then again, if you plumb in a sink wrong people don't generally die

..is that true of gas boilers as well, do you think?

Good point, GP's should not earn more than gas fitters, or is that gas fitters should earn what GP's do. What about librarians?

How long is the training to become a doctor?

It partly depends on the qualifications you have before going to medical school, and the type of doctor you want to be. For example as a guide, it'll take around 10 years to train as a GP (including medical school) and 14 years to train as a surgeon.

Anyone willing to train for 10 years and deal with the actual public deserves it.

GPs are so well paid that I know of a practice where not a single one works full time.

Perhaps because they find trying to be a GP full time to be an impossible strain? Whom would you rather have treat you, someone who is half dead or someone who is alert?

I know quite a few GP's. None, and I mean None, are on six figure salaries, mostly because they are not in dispensing practices- that can boost salaries considerably admittedly.

A typical full day for a GP I know starts at 7.30 am, they are at the surgery or out on visits till 8-8.30 many days and then have another 1-2 hours of paperwork to do. They may get about 1/2 hour break in that time This is not hearsay, this actually happens.
A typical Half day starts at 7.30 am finishes at 3-3.30 and again another couple of hours of paperwork.

There is a real crisis in trying to recruit new GP's. If it were such a great money-spinning job, why are so few taking it up? Because they see people working till they drop, getting shedloads of crap aimed at them in the media from people who don't know what is really happening, and there are other, less stressful avenues in medicine ( not in A&E, but that's for similar reasons)

Edit: an example of the recruitment problem. There is a rural practice in Worcestershire, in a beautiful part of the country who got no applicants at all for a partnership vacancy.

well from the above mrs tts best mates must be in a very small minority.. all gps all mid/late 40s. all work fixed 3 or 4 day weeks. none of thier partners work all have school age kids all live in big houses south, south west manchester, cheshire. all do the ladies that lunch bit with mrs tts who although only a pharmacist works only 3 days a week fixed shifts etc.. all 4 definately lifestyle choice and one that they seem to be able to easily afford.

Which means? Are you their accountant?

well from the above mrs tts best mates must be in a very small minority.. all gps all mid/late 40s. all work fixed 3 or 4 day weeks. none of thier partners work

Are they lunching on their days off? Isn't that what days off are for? How long do they work on a working day? Are they salaried GP's rather than partners? Depending on the setup at the practice, this can make a substantial difference to hours worked and also income round here at present.

As the OP I have said I know two GPs very well and as totalshell points out they have very good lifestyles way beyond a £50k income - the older GP I know has just retired at 55 with a pension north £50k and all four of his kids went to private school and his Mrs never had a job. I think they are very well paid and anyone who compares contractor/consultancy rates to a salary is plain stupid - £35 an hour garage labour does not mean the mechanic gets paid £72k a year - I run a consultancy business and a £36k salary needs the best part of £80k of paid work to cover holidays, NI, prof indemnity, pub liability, office, heat, laptops, phones, internet, travel, training, sick leave, accountants not to mention cash flow or pensions or paternity/maternity leave 🙁

my point is don't chuck houly rates around when 25% of the workforce is on minimum wage and most can use a calculator - however it is supposed to be puiblic service

What? So as it's a public service they should be paid less?

The BBC has done the norm of the media and provided very little details. How many days does this person work on 12 hours, it won't include nights as a GP unless they work under an Out of Hours provider which will pay more than £36 per hour.

I get £17.65 per hour for 12 hours shifts, I work nights and days, I do 14 shifts a month average, I work 7 days at week. I do get an enhancement for the working shifts, I get £17.65 as I'm at the top of my scale and a line manager of currently almost 20 staff, as well as working as a Paramedic I'm responsible for those staff and the running of the station.

Yes the GP is on good money but they get paid that much for a good reason, one of those is ringing for us to come and do the treatment in emergency cases. 😆

most partners earn more like £150k

This is simply not the case, I would be very interested in where you got that figure-a reliable source or hearsay? most partners at present if full time in an average sized practice would get a figure that is nearer half that unless in a dispensing practice, which many are not. Income to practices has dropped considerably over the past year or so, especially for those who were on PMS contracts.

£36k salary needs the best part of £80k of paid work to cover holidays, NI, prof indemnity, pub liability, office, heat, laptops, phones, internet, travel, training, sick leave, accountants not to mention cash flow or pensions or paternity/maternity leave

Do you think Partnered GP's don't have to pay NI, public Liability, medical defence insurance, training, sick leave, maternity leave etc. out of their income from the practice?

I am not saying that GP's are not in the higher income brackets, and I am sure that there are many that have a very comfortable lifestyle ( but in my opinion, as you have probably gathered, have earned it), it is just that the sums quoted here and in the press are not realistic. Like most things, if you actually know something about an issue, what is in the media is more often than not poorly researched, poorly written, half baked bollocks.
Edit:

I am also sure that there are a few GP's on £150k, but they are the exception rather than the rule.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9567689/More-than-700-GPs-earned-200000-despite-overall-drop-in-salaries-figures.html

High earning GPs usually run dispensing practices which are effectively pharmacies as well as GP surgeries.
[b]More than half of GP partners earned less than £100,000, the report shows.
Salaried GPs, who are paid a fixed wage for their work and do not own a stake in the practice are usually paid less because they are more likely to work part time.
For salaried GPs, the UK average income before tax in 2010/11 was £57,600, compared to £58,000 in 2009/10.[/b]

All the GPs I know are partners and dispensing, salaried GPs must be a tad peeved.

*in a nutshell see Drac figures above

You need to consider:
- overall package
- how money paid (employee paye, dividends, 'expenses' etc etc) as that varies take home massively

All the GPs I know are partners and dispensing, salaried GPs must be a tad peeved.

Why? They can become partners too in time if they want.

Those figures in the Telegraph are from 2012.
There were 65100 GP's registered in December 2014, so 700 is 1.1% earning over £200k. I very much doubt if even that is true in 2015.
The report in the Telegraph states that Fewer than half earned £100k so I think the 'source' you quoted oldmanmtb doesn't support your assertion that "MOST partners earn more than £150k"

Sorry, I took the total number of registered GP's, not the number who filed tax returns, so it appears from the report Drac linked that there were 47000 gp's working makes it 1.5% earning over £200k rather than 1.1%.
Need to do more thorough research 🙂

0% Are salaried like the person first mentioned in the original post. I'm not sure what the OP's point was.

I get £7 to work hard, drink tea and listen to the radio.

I reckon most life saving professions are worth at least 5* that.

But then if you know what some construction & event management industry bods charge per day rate, perhaps 10* would be more sufficient for GP's etc...

Not for sitting in a Hilux looking at a map for 250 a day.