[Closed] BBC bias - Scottish independence content

.scotroutes - Member
SD-253 » .scotroutes - Member
VAT? how will extra VAT come into it. No country in the world charges VAT or the equivalent on goods they export. Somebody needs a bit of bog standard financial knowledge.
He said "import" though?
Bencooper - Member
That would immediately make most things I import about 20% more expensive.

.Bencooper - Member
That would immediately make most things I import about 20% more expensive.

[quote=SD-253 ] Have I got you right saying that England will put import duty on EU goods of 20%. Ludicrous and illegal.
Am I going to have to re-quote the whole post to you or do you want to back and re-read it?

bencooper - Member
But there's a big risk in staying in the Union as well. Specifically for me, the risk is that the UK (dominated by the English vote) votes to get out of the EU. That would immediately make most things I import about 20% more expensive (and add lots of hassle) and also affect all my exports to Europe.

Because
You
Would
Have
To
Pay
VAT
On
Them
If
We
Were
Not
In
The
EU
!!

Scotsroutes - I don't think you understand how intra-community VAT triangulation works...

How would it be intra-community if we weren't in the EU?

If you understood how VAT currently worked, then you wouldn't have to ask that question

Lets explain it this way

You
pay
VAT
on
everything
taxable
that
you
buy

The only difference is when you pay it, and how you reclaim it

Some are reasoning that we should be independent as the English are likely to take us out of the EU. I don't think that will happen even under a CMD led government. Cameron does not want to leave the EU, and it may come as a surprise to some, but the EU does not want the UK to leave As far as I am concerned. That being the case I can see concessions to the UK that make staying in more palletable to voters in an in out referendum.
In previous threads some yes supporters have joked about rUK leaving the EU in a "don't let the door hit your arse on the way out" kind of way. If rUK does leave the EU, it will be a significantly weaker union an iScotland wishes to join.

Also, the whole view of Scotland not influencing elections as something to get annoyed about seems a bit daft to me. Of course it doesn't. Yorkshire has a population of 5 million. I never heard anyone from Leeds say Yorkshire should dictate election results.

Finally, on immigration, it is a bit saddening to think your own Newcastle born spouse becomes an immigration statistic in iScotland to be touted in future by our dear leader as an example how welcoming Scotland is to those of different nationalities and cultures. Our offspring are a shining example of how Scotland can truly be a multicultural and diverse nation.

I never heard anyone from Leeds say Yorkshire should dictate election results.

Pffft, buggers complain about everything else. And they've got massive chips on their shoulders about their "homeland"

Post meant in jest

Largely

Also, the whole view of Scotland not influencing elections as something to get annoyed about seems a bit daft to me. Of course it doesn't. Yorkshire has a population of 5 million. I never heard anyone from Leeds say Yorkshire should dictate election results.

Couple of weeks back was at one of the GFs friends. She was complaining vigorously about the London centric news, and during the London centric weather forecast I suggested she change the channel from BBC London.

🙂

Athgray youused a key word at the end there nation. Scots joined the union as a nation. Comparison with regions towns cities are not valid as you're not comparing like with like.
Sd-253 you'll find that yes supporters have discussed many policies on many threads you might remember eu membership or nuclear disarmament. ..ask thm
So sd -253 you are wrong ...

To be clear Athgray I do not mean that Scots /Scotland have a right to detemine every election when they are part of a union with other nations. I am saying that when they have consistently voted differently from other parts of the union they have as a nation the right to say "we have considered this for a while now the union is not working for us and we want out"
For what it's worth I think the peoples of other areas in the UK also have right to quit the union or change the union . How they go about it l think looks much more difficult than it might be for a nation.

I see where you are coming from gordimhor.Luckily I was not around 300 years ago so don't feel the overwhelming pride in being just Scottish. Not particularly proud of the UK either. I feel lucky to have the Highlands close at hand to partake in hobbies I enjoy.

Don't have a strong sense nationhood towards Scotland. More regional I suppose. Frankly I find the whole Saltire waving this is my country show a bit embarrassing.

You talk of never getting the government Scotland voted for. 1997-2010?

It's also worth pointing out that the way most people in England vote is irrelevant too.

With the Westminster system, the whole game is decided by a relatively small number of floating voters in a few marginal constituencies, so the opinions of most people don't matter.

they have as a nation the right to say "we have considered this for a while now the union is not working for us and we want out"

But that isn't the deal you signed, was it?

[i]shall upon the 1st May next ensuing the date hereof, [b]and forever after[/b], be United into One Kingdom[/i]

97-2010 well Scots and the rest of the UK voted them in....but really New Labour didn't do what it said on the tin. That led to a lot of the current deep disillusionment with all politics imo.New Labour, Libdems, Tories are as Scotroutes said "three cheeks of the same arse" 🙂
edit added in "imo"

No ninfan , but then again 307 years ago I didn't have a vote, I would have been one of the rioters in Edinburgh at the time. 😈

You may well have been a rioter, but penny to a pound of shite that Salmond would have been somewhere with William Paterson making themselves scarce after selling one way tickets to the Isthmuth of Panama 😀

I've got a 1699 book called "A Defence of the Scots Settlement at Darien" - it's basically one long whine to the king about what a dump Darien is and how the English, French and Spanish (and the natives) are picking on them 😉

Going by all I have read about Darien it would have been a good place to send all the politicians who were found guilty of fiddling their expenses.

http://derekbateman1.wordpress.com/
Back on topic . Former BBC man Derek Batemans blog

I do not trust one single politician. regardless which country they are from.
I would guarantee you that alex salmond is just out to make a name for himself and to ultimately line his own pockets. just like blair witch, cameron and that other **** whose name escapes me right now (labour leader)

matay - Member
...I would guarantee you that alex salmond is just out to make a name for himself and to ultimately line his own pockets...

And your factual basis for that?

no factual basis what so ever... just over 30 years of witnessing the selfish greed of EVERY politician that has ever held a position of power!
full of promises BEFORE they get there, then lies, backtracks and cover ups from then on.
blair was the peoples champion when he was campaigning, anti tory, labour through and through. shirt sleeves rolled up. common background just like the rest of us!! bullsheet.
cameron did the same and miliband is again pumping out the same crap!
they ALL went to the same schools and ALL have the same values and agenda.
mr salmond is playing on the scottish peoples anger against ENGLISH govern.... but I guarentee you, a large majority of english people have that same anger.
as I said, I do not trust ANY one politician. they are all one and the same.

they ALL went to the same schools and ALL have the same values and agenda.

Alex Salmond went to Linlithgow Academy - not exactly an elite place of learning (sorry, Linlithgow).

Just saying.

matay - Member
...mr salmond is playing on the scottish peoples anger against ENGLISH govern...

I think you have that wrong.

It's not anger, it's a realisation the system is broken.

One thing many Scots dislike intensely is that the highest tier of government is unelected. For democracy's sake it's about time the House of Lords was removed.

The most heavily populated part of the UK is in the SE, so any government of the UK is going to have to be SE centric at the expense of the peripheral parts.

What is appropriate there is not necessarily so for the rest of the country. Regional England suffers many of the same problems as the Scots. as the black hole of London sucks the resources out of the rest of the country.

The difference is, that as a nation that is party to the Union, Scotland can do something about it and leave.

Hopefully our departure may lead to Westminster devolving more government powers to the regions so each can have the appropriate policies for their needs.

I'm convinced the north of England would blossom again if there was a federated system of government that devolved powers to the regions.

What is appropriate there is not necessarily so for the rest of the country. Regional England suffers many of the same problems as the Scots. as the black hole of London sucks the resources out of the rest of the country.

One telling statistic is to look at public transport investment per head of population:

London: £2000 per person per annum
North-East: £2 per person per annum

The Crossrail project alone - a 26-mile train line serving part of London - is costing more than half Scotland's entire yearly budget for everything.

I'm convinced the north of England would blossom again if there was a federated system of government that devolved powers to the regions.

I'm not.

Maybe if the changes of the 70's and 80's had been handled differently then it could of been different.

Genuine question - What could you do now to greatly change things?

I can't see how another level of government would help and that was rejected in the NE by a public vote in the 90's.

The manufacturing base is gone, the steel and coal is gone. They are so far gone that it would be almost impossible to bring it back.

Also, you used the expression "blossom". When was this? In the 50's and 60's when Teeside was covered in a blanket of chemical smog? In the 1930's when fatal accidents at work were common and people were starving?In the 1970's when there were constant strikes?

Rose tinted spectacles?

One telling statistic is to look at public transport investment per head of population:

London: £2000 per person per annum
North-East: £2 per person per annum

The Crossrail project alone - a 26-mile train line serving part of London - is costing more than half Scotland's entire yearly budget for everything.

Hmmm, given the overspend on the Edinburgh Tram construction, I wouldn't say that public transport spend is too trusty a brickbat to start throwing around 😉

Yeah, that's a total balls-up, but Edinburgh isn't in the North-East of England 😉

The point is still the same, though - huge amounts of public money is spent in London compared to the regions.

I think you have that wrong.

It's not anger, it's a realisation the system is broken.

Indeed, and an almost total lack of will at Westminster to do anything about it.

One thing many Scots dislike intensely is that the highest tier of government is unelected. For democracy's sake it's about time the House of Lords was removed.

The most heavily populated part of the UK is in the SE, so any government of the UK is going to have to be SE centric at the expense of the peripheral parts.

What is appropriate there is not necessarily so for the rest of the country. Regional England suffers many of the same problems as the Scots. as the black hole of London sucks the resources out of the rest of the country.

The difference is, that as a nation that is party to the Union, Scotland can do something about it and leave.

Hopefully our departure may lead to Westminster devolving more government powers to the regions so each can have the appropriate policies for their needs.

Pretty much nails it for me. I've never been a flag waver, never felt any genuine affinity with being 'British' any very little with being 'English' which probably makes my choice of vote a whole lot easier.

I care little from where I'm governed, it's what that governance does that concerns me. As much of a slippery turd AS can be, I'm not voting for him and even if I was. He's still better than than CMD or anything that looks likely to rise in Westminster.

Oh, its not - but just demonstrating that a simple measure of 'expenditure per head' doesn't necessarily lead you down the path of enlightenment - like Scotland, most of the NE of England is fairly sparsely populated, the problem is for public transport is generally one of viability due to under use, rather than congestion, so capital/infrastructure spend is fairly irrelevant.

London: £2000 per person per annum
North-East: £2 per person per annum

What do you mean by the NE?

Considering that Northumberland and Durham are 2 of the least densely populated areas in England it's not that surprising. Not much point in building a "Metro" for Wooler or Stanhope is there?

Tyne and Wear actually have a very good public transport system and has had a great deal of investment in it over the years.

Ben, but he (AS) did go to the UKs finest Uni after that. Shame he doesn't use that education more wisely 😉

Winston_dog - Probably Englands most remote bus stop:

[img] ?1391161420[/img]

winston_dog - Member
"I'm convinced the north of England would blossom again if there was a federated system of government that devolved powers to the regions."

...The manufacturing base is gone, the steel and coal is gone. They are so far gone that it would be almost impossible to bring it back.

Also, you used the expression "blossom". When was this? In the 50's and 60's when Teeside was covered in a blanket of chemical smog? In the 1930's when fatal accidents at work were common and people were starving?In the 1970's when there were constant strikes?

Rose tinted spectacles?

Why would they go back to the past?

Are you saying the people in the north of England are too dumb to come up with solutions if they had more self-government and the power to something about it?

As far as the arguments about another layer of government, that's easily solved. Get rid of a parasitic level (House of Lords), and you have room for regional government.

But anyway, that's a problem for you English to solve. We'll be cheering you on from beyond the wall. 🙂

winston_dog - Member

The manufacturing base is gone

don't believe this ^.

Are you saying the people in the north of England are too dumb to come up with solutions if they had more self-government and the power to something about it?

Where did I say they were dumb?

Why do they need more "self-government" to achieve this?

How would "self-government" help?

I tend to agree with you regarding the House of Lords but I think we need less layers of government, not more.

If "Regional Assemblies" were created, then why would you expect them to be any use? I have just had dealings with my Local Authority and was amazed at how useless they were at all levels. Why would a "Regional Assembly" be any better?

But that isn't the deal you signed, was it?

shall upon the 1st May next ensuing the date hereof, and forever after, be United into One Kingdom

Sounds a bit like the marriage vow "until death us do part.". So are you saying divorce should be bannned?

So are you saying divorce should be bannned?

Not necessarily - but just like a divorce, Scotland can't immediately assume they're going to get half the house and furniture and keep getting maintenance afterwards 😉

Not necessarily - but just like a divorce, Scotland can't immediately assume they're going to get half the house and furniture and [b]keep getting maintenance afterwards[/b]

This keeps coming up (usually from English folk). No where has that sort of arrangement been suggested.

The Scottish people don't want half, all we want is our fair share of what the [b]UK[/b] currently has. We'll take our share of the debt and also the assets.

Maybe what we need is the equivalent of a divorce lawyer coming in and helping to negotiate and get some proper facts and figures for the debate.

winston_dog - Member
...Why do they need more "self-government" to achieve this?
How would "self-government" help?
...If "Regional Assemblies" were created, then why would you expect them to be any use? I have just had dealings with my Local Authority and was amazed at how useless they were at all levels. Why would a "Regional Assembly" be any better?

So fundamentally you don't think democracy works?

So fundamentally you don't think democracy works?

Putting words into my mouth!

How far do you want to go? How many layers of Government would reflect the subtle difference between the regions of the UK?

I will ask again, how would these multiple layers of government help in basically dividing up a finite amount of resources?

On democracy "It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.”

Regional Assemblies were thrown out when they were voted on by the people of the NE.

Why not go the whole hog and let's have Anarchy? A full network of small communities with no Central Government? Utopia!

Anarchy in (or out) of the UK it's coming sometime.... 🙂

I will ask again, how would these multiple layers of government help in basically dividing up a finite amount of resources?

One less unelected at the top.

Replaced by a new elected one just below the top.

This is fantastic:

http://thinkafricapress.com/blog/if-uk-were-african-country-was-great-britain-mistake

😀

bencooper - Member
This is fantastic:

http://thinkafricapress.com/blog/if-uk-were-african-country-was-great-britain-mistake

Thanks. I've stuck that all on my FaceBook.

bencooper - Member
Yeah, that's a total balls-up, but Edinburgh isn't in the North-East of England

The point is still the same, though - huge amounts of public money is spent in London compared to the regions.

I am afraid they also pay far more in tax revenue than the rest of the country. Let me put it in a simpler way for the whiners they subsidies the rest of the country. I HAVE NEVER LIVED IN THE SOUTH OF ENGLAND ONLY NORTH WEST AND NORTH EAST, so I am not biased further more I live in rural area and don't think we are entitled to the same quality of services as cities as they subsidies rural areas (indirectly electric telephone etc).

scotroutes - Member
Because
You
Would
Have
To
Pay
VAT
On
Them
If
We
Were
Not
In
The
EU
!!

And then you reclaim it when you sell on the item. Exactly as you would if you had bought the item from someone in the UK. Staggering lack of financial knowledge, don't go into business you won't last long!

winston_dog - Member
I can't see how another level of government would help and that was rejected in the NE by a public vote in the 90's.

It was 2004 [/pendant]

SD-253 - Member
I am afraid they also pay far more in tax revenue than the rest of the country.

More tax comes from (some parts of) London because of the unbalanced nature of the UK economy. The reason productivity and economic activity is higher in London is because it is lower in the rest of the UK. It is classic dependency theory - rich places stay rich by exploiting the resources (be they natural, financial, human, knowledge etc) than less rich places because they have more power.

Massive imbalances are bad for everyone because diverse economies are more resilient.

BBC again: Radio Scotland held a "Big Debate" on independence, not in a town hall or public school, but in a private school (Strathallan). When the audience of schoolchildren was asked how they'd vote, 3 in 200 were for independence.

So a nice, balanced studio audience there.

Then afterwards the one pro-independence person on the panel was abused on Twitter by pupils.

Classy.

Ben - Now that sounds pretty dodgy to me.

However, I don't agree that the BBC is biased against the Yes vote.

Why would it be?

Surely the BBC journalists North of the Border are a pretty mixed bunch but will probably be more likely than most to be slightly "left leaning". The BBC is always accused of being a bunch of hand wringing lefties. Isn't the vast majority of support for Yes coming from the left?

So if this is the case, why would they be biased against a Yes vote?

[quote=winston_dog ]Ben - Now that sounds pretty dodgy to me.
However, I don't agree that the BBC is biased against the Yes vote.
Why would it be?
Surely the BBC journalists North of the Border are a pretty mixed bunch but will probably be more likely than most to be slightly "left leaning". The BBC is always accused of being a bunch of hand wringing lefties. Isn't the vast majority of support for Yes coming from the left?
So if this is the case, why would they be biased against a Yes vote?
"Left-leaning" in Scotland used to mean aligned to the Labour Party. If you live here, you'll see that the Labour Party has a visceral, almost tribal hatred of the SNP. I guess it's to be expected since the SNP has stripped them from 50 years of continuous power in Scotland. When you get BBC political correspondents going on holiday with Labour leaders, or making comments to Douglas Alexander (live on a BBC election broadcast) along the lines of "look at this SNP landslide, [i]we[/i] need you here in Holyrood" you get an idea of how cosy the relationship between BBC Scotland and the Labour Party is.

Don't worry Ben the FT counter-balanced this more by giving column inches yesterday to wee eck BSing on about how he could ignore what Carney was saying. How much bias is involved with uncritical reporting of his nonsense??

La, la, la......hear no evil, see no evil, speak plenty of it......

The labour v SNP debates this week have been particularly dignified hey Scotroutes?? Then the lovely picture of Ms Davidson in full attack mode in the Scotsman. Not a picture she will be keeping!!!!

"Left-leaning" in Scotland used to mean aligned to the Labour Party. If you live here, you'll see that the Labour Party has a visceral, almost tribal hatred of the SNP.

I thought the Yes or No wasn't about just the SNP and AS? This has been clearly stated on here numerous times.

If Labour have lost a % of their vote to the SNP then surely a similar % of left leaning journos would of went over to the SNP?

Just a minor point I lived in Scotland for 6 years until 2009.

thought the Yes or No wasn't about just the SNP and AS?

Shouldn't be, but for many short sighted people it is. There is a Yes movement in the Labour party, but hard to tell how big it is.

A relief to read in the Scotsman that

ALMOST a third of Scots are unaware of the existence of Alex Salmond’s White Paper and almost nine out of ten people have not bothered to read it, a poll commissioned by the Scottish philanthropist Sir Tom Hunter has claimed.

Despite the hype surrounding the document outlining the Scottish Government’s independence blueprint, the survey of 1,054 adults found only 14 per cent claimed to have read any of it.

That's a relief ( that I one of the few fools who has actually tried to read it. ) The Scots are far too canny to bother which such rubbish. 😉

But almost a third unaware!?!?!?

Is that the poll that shows support for the Yes campaign continuing to grow? I think, if you leave the undecided out, it was at about 40%?

Yes, I think it does. Good job for the yes campaign that the details are ignored! Still, I reckon it will be much closer that current polls suggest. Just wait for the indigestion of having all those cakes and eating them though.

[quote=winston_dog ]If Labour have lost a % of their vote to the SNP then surely a similar % of left leaning journos would of went over to the SNP?
A quick look at the polling demographic suggests support for independence is higher in the lower income categories. I know journalists aren't usually millionaires, but still... 🙂

Anyway, as I said, there's been a cosy relationship for decades. The Derek Bateman blog is a useful read to see his take on it.

http://derekbateman1.wordpress.com/2014/01/30/402/

Sorry, but I just had to....

[img] [/img]

http://www.express.co.uk/sport/tennis/455395/Andy-Murray-holds-the-key-to-England-s-Davis-Cup-hopes

😆

ALMOST a third of Scots are unaware of the existence of Alex Salmond’s White Paper and almost nine out of ten people have not bothered to read it,

If they had read it, then like me, in their first quick glance through, perhaps they would have stumbled across this little gem:

What about bank bail-outs if there is another financial
crisis?
...
...

If in the future wider support from governments is required to
stabilise the financial system, this would be coordinated through
the governance arrangements agreed between the
governments of the Sterling Area.

I see. So if in the future Scottish banks implode, taxpayers from England, Wales and NI will be expected to pick up the tab. Nice one.

Why did the US Federal Reserve bail out Barclays Bank to the tune of £552.32bn?

Does the express not have an editorial department 😉 !!! That is a shocker.

Sticky speaking the FED allowed Barc to borrow from then - they were not "bailed out." By hook or by crook Barc avoided any kind of official bail out although they clearly benefited from indirect assistance. But remember what function the FED played - it was the lender of last resort and going forward they will require Barc to structure themselves differently, Judging by recent comments, such thoughts havent even crossed wee eck's mind yet.

Lender of last resort, pah!

Bloody got effort from the Davis Cup team though, makes you proud to be a Brit!!!

"I see. So if in the future Scottish banks implode, taxpayers from England, Wales and NI will be expected to pick up the tab. Nice one"

It doesn't actually say that oldnpastit. It suggests that countries could cooperate in the event of a banking crisis. Though I think proper regulation and prison sentences for thise responsible would help.

A detailed response by the UWS academic to the BBC's criticism of his paper:

http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-opinion/8679-uws-academic-responds-to-bbc-scotland-criticism-of-indy-news-study

I am a socialist, pacifist and feminist. I had no agenda to pursue other than genuine curiosity to explore the patterns of journalistic behaviour in a process of wide contemporary interest.

This I find odd. If I was a socialist, or a pacifist, or a feminist. Or any combination thereof, I'd have an agenda in relation to Scottish independence. Mainly the socialist bit. But then, that's me not being scientific.

Still, at least it was reported from an unbiased news source.

scotroutes - Member
Sorry, but I just had to....

Sadly the headlines been updated. Not the URL though.

You'll need to explain what you was doing reading [i]that[/i] paper. Please tell me you was directed there specifically for that article.

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/feb/02/scotland-independence-different-values-alistair-carmichael ]Alastair Carbuncle in the goniad[/url]

Kind of agree with him on some points about the cultural differences.

Interesting couple of articles in the FT

The headlines looked like they would be interesting and good for debate but all a bit thin in the end. On the issue of bias, the headlines suggested that all of the articles would be generally pro inpep and yet they were quick to point out the case for no. The Nordic model article was v shallow IMO which is a shame.

I wish there was a credible broadsheet that was firmly behind the yes campaign. It would be good to have sensible arguments (started in the one FT article today at least, if not well developed*) rather than Wee Eck's BS grandstanding.

* but perhaps there is a good reason for this!!!!

. scotroutes - Member
Why did the US Federal Reserve bail out Barclays Bank to the tune of £552.32bn?

Be fair, sd, Scotroutes probably mixed up roles of central banks.

You point out the measures that the bank used to raise equity ( eg the qataris ). Judging by the numbers, Scotroutes was referring (but inaccurately describing) Barc's use of the Fed emerging funding program. Two different approached to liability problems

Barc, HSBC and RBS all had access to official and secret fed funding. You can debate whether he latter was a good thing (stopped the crisis getting even worse) or a bad one (hid the truth from investors about the true scale of the problems at these banks). Then you can investigate various accounting procedures including loan recognition!!!!!

. teamhurtmore - Member

I wish there was a credible broadsheet that was firmly behind the yes campaign. It would be good to have sensible arguments (started in the one FT article today at least, if not well developed*) rather than Wee Eck's BS grandstanding.

I have never really been happy with the statement that the British government bailed out any UK bank. Ignoring it should have read the taxpayers bailed out the banks we bought shares in the bank and unless the government sells "our" shares at a loss then we will not have bailed them out at all. IF the eventual sale is done well....... Post office. Oh well you can only hope.

. teamhurtmore

Barc, HSBC and RBS all had access to official and secret fed funding. You can debate whether he latter was a good thing (stopped the crisis getting even worse) or a bad one (hid the truth from investors about the true scale of the problems at these banks)