Same with Whooping Cough Virus and others, the death rate had already fell massively BEFORE the immunisation was introduced, due to better sanitation levels, yet that is often overlooked and all the credit is given to the vaccine.
I know its getting off track slightly, but also more people died from the vaccine for pertussis (whooping cough), than the illness itself.
Do you really trust the medical profession that much?
Remember Thalidamide?
grahamS - how many of deaths are of people living in third world countries with bad sanitation and living conditions
[i]mercury (the most toxic substance on the planet)[/i]
It's in your fillings, too.
Mercury poisoning symptoms are different to autism.
You got any proof/papers? A quick google just brings up a load of scaremongering bollocks. Ta.
Measles infections are rising - you telling me that deaths/disability from measles won't rise too?
[i]someone whose son was in a coma as a direct result of the MMR (and yes that was proven).[/i] Yep, in extremely rare circumstances you can get anaphylaxis.
"We are waiting on the Measles, but have seen off Mumps, Whooping cough, German measles and Chicken pox"
I hope you informed your doctor as it is a notifiable disease in the UK (Like Measles).
They actually thought injecting mercury (the most toxic substance on the planet. FAIL.
once again hearsay and anecdotal evidence decide the debate for many while completely ignoring peer review journals and the weight of scientifc opinion
something the government really hasnt advertised (prob because it was a massive cock up at the time) was that early versions of the vaccine were stabilised using mercury. They actually thought injecting mercury (the most toxic substance on the planet) into 12 month old babies was safe. And what they also arent shouting from the rooftops is that mercury poisoning has a lot of similarities with the early symptons of Autism.
There was never any evidence that thiomersal(the mercury derivative used to stabilise vaccines) had any link with autism. It was withdrawn from use in 1999 because some people were have very minor allergic reactions to it (i.e. a red patch where they had been injected). In any case the symptoms of mercury poisoning and autism are very different.
how many of deaths are of people living in third world countries with bad sanitation and living conditions
Even in third world countries, don't you think doctors record the cause when someone dies? You might as well say that everyone who died from measles in those countries is actually shot, or run over.
Just living in an affluent Western country does bugger all to protect you from disease, as recent outbreaks of TB and flu have shown. But it does mean that treatment and prevention are more easily available.
"They actually thought injecting mercury (the most toxic substance on the planet) into 12 month old babies was safe"
Are you talking about thiomersal? If you are then saying that vaccines used to contain mercury is missleading to the point of being a lie. There is no elemental mercury in thiomersal it is chemically bound as either Methyl-mercury or Ethyl-mercury I'm not sure which one. Just because it contains mercury that does not mean that it also has all the toxic properties of that metal. It is no longer used in UK and when it was removed in the US there was no impact on autism detection rates .
"I perosnally know of one person who will sware blind his son starting showing autistic traites the day he had the injection..."
Confimration bias again, correlation is not causation.
"...and know of someone whose son was in a coma as a direct result of the MMR (and yes that was proven)."
Can you explain how the death of one person from measles is not a big deal whilst someone elses coma from MMR (assuming that that was the casue) is?
"If the government actually laid out the facts as they are instead of trying to scare people into having the MMR (soon the be the MMRC) they may have more of an uptake. "
The government have laid out the facts and the facts are that there has been no link found between the MMR jab and autism. That is not to say that there aren't risks, as there are with any medical procedure, just that the risks of having the vaccine are orders of magnitude less than the risks posed by the diseases themselves.
Mountaincarrot I truely hope that if your daughter does catch measles that she is not among the group that have serious complications.
grahamS - how many of deaths are of people living in third world countries with bad sanitation and living conditions
The majority of them, as most of the non-third world countries have good access to immunisation jabs.
Are you implying that measles only kills or debilitates people who have bad sanitation?
[i]There was never any evidence that thiomersal(the mercury derivative used to stabilise vaccines) had any link with autism[/i]
I never said that it did - my point was the resultant damage was similar and that some parents seeing their childs suffering the effects of this may have thought their child had autism.
Why does everyone ask for evidence when previously theyy'll be saying dont believe everything you read on the internet?? - the bit about mercury was actually on the Autism UK website, where they were trying to explain that there probably wasnt any connection between autism and mmr...
And why cant anyone please point out the exact place the MMR/Autism papers were debunked (and not just by a politician saying its ok) and supposedly the doctor who carried out the 'tests' of 12 also says he got it wrong.
The proble with the internet is that you can find somewhere that will say whatever you want.
[i]The majority of them, as most of the non-third world countries have good access to immunisation jabs.
Are you implying that measles only kills or debilitates people who have bad sanitation?[/i]
no only in countries that dont have a decent standard of medical care...
There was never any evidence that thiomersal (or thimerosal as it's also known) caused any damage at all. It was withdrawn as a "precautionary measure" around the same time that a number of studies were completed showing it was safe!
Re the MMR doctor, Andrew Wakefield, his study was never taken seriously by anyone except the media (and the parents he exploited), but there's an article here that sets out how flimsy his evidence was:
[url] http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article5683671.ece [/url]
[url= http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article5683671.ece ]THE doctor who sparked the scare over the safety of the MMR vaccine for children changed and misreported results in his research, creating the appearance of a possible link with autism, a Sunday Times investigation has found.
Confidential medical documents and interviews with witnesses have established that Andrew Wakefield manipulated patients’ data, which triggered fears that the MMR triple vaccine to protect against measles, mumps and rubella was linked to the condition[/url]
Granted not necessarily the best source as it's a media source but the times is one of the better papers.
[i]And why cant anyone please point out the exact place the MMR/Autism papers were debunked (and not just by a politician saying its ok) and supposedly the doctor who carried out the 'tests' of 12 also says he got it wrong.[/i]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez
just search autism and mmr
and personally i dont think it gets more unethical than this....
The doctor who first suggested a link between MMR and autism paid children £5 for their blood samples at his son's birthday part
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6289166.stm
[url=www.cochrane.org/press/MMR_final.pdf] and if you don't like the Times article there is this cochrane review of all the MMR studies[/url]
Right that didn't work for some reason so use cut and paste
www.cochrane.org/press/MMR_final.pdf
thats the problem and to some extent my point - we have to rely on the media, be it the times, daily mail or the sun - and in times when people mistrust politicians, big comapanies and even in some cases their own doctor its not surprising that whats happening is happening. Add into that a generation of very young mums who really dont have the inclination to do the research or legwork (and go on the assumption well I didnt have it and im ok then its ok for my child not to have it). I even know of Doctors who have advised a mother (whose child suffers very bad allergies) not to have any vaccinations.
Look at some of the comments in reply to this article in the telegraph - assumedly from an educated part of the populace - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1556883/New-fear-over-MMR-link-with-rising-autism.html
ranging from mmr destroyed my child to dont be so silly and go and have the jab.
I grew up in a pre mmr world, otherwise known as the 70's - loads of kids had mumps measles and german measles and you know what a week later they were back at school showing everyone their scars, no one died, no one went to hospital - so whats changed?
[i]Why does everyone ask for evidence when previously theyy'll be saying dont believe everything you read on the internet??[/i]
[i]The proble with the internet is that you can find somewhere that will say whatever you want.[/i]
I'm asking for evidence in peer reviewed journals, FFS! Scientific papers, in proper, peer reviewed journals with a nice high impact factor. If you think that's the same as the scaremongering hogwash that floods the rest of the internet, then good luck to you in your own little world.
Mercury poisoning and MMR have different symptoms, really.
Go to PubMed and do a search. They're all peer reviewed abstracts of published papers, and as such are sight more believeable than most stuff on the internet. If anything there corroborates your claims, let me know.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez
[i]the bit about mercury was actually on the Autism UK website[/i] Written by whom? Is that where you got the "most toxic substance known to man" riff from too?
[i]no one died, no one went to hospital [/i]
Yes, they did. Look it up.
" loads of kids had mumps measles and german measles and you know what a week later they were back at school showing everyone their scars, no one died,.."
Wrong, some people did die. Not in your experience perhaps but that is only your experience not definative evidence.
In my opinion - and its only that of course - Wakefield asked questions about the safety of the MMR vaccine that have not been addressed. He never proved anything and his methodology was suspect but why has no one actually spent time and effort on corroborating or disproving his work?
Instead he was vilified in the press in a most unseemly way and denigrated by politicians leaving the questions he asked unanswered.
If I had a child they would nt have the MMR jab - I am fairly sceptical about both the benefits and risks of innoculations. I do understand the aim of "herd immunity"
There are many differences between how western countries inoculate and what they inoculate for withut much difference in infection rates.
Are you implying that measles only kills or debilitates people who have bad sanitation?no only in countries that dont have a decent standard of medical care...
Given that there is no cure for the measles then I'm not sure how much a high standard of medical care would help once you have it.
However "In developing countries, 1-5% of children with measles die from complications of the disease. This death rate may be as high as 25% among people who are displaced, malnourished and have poor access to health care." ([url= http://www.who.int/features/qa/53/en/index.html ]WHO[/url]) So clearly access to healthcare does have some bearing.
we have to rely on the media
No you don't - for starters there's the Cochrane Library, which is a charity and impartially reviews medical studies. Here's what they had to say about MMR:
Believe it or not there is such a thing as "good" medical evidence (long term consistent studies involving as many people as possible, with proper unbiased analysis of the results) and "bad" medical evidence (short studies on just a handful of people, with no control group and biased conclusions). Guess which category the anti-MMR studies fall into...
Youre totally missing my point and before I go any further I just want to add my little boy has had the jab last month.
All Im trying to show you is why people are not having the jab and their reasoning behind it. I doubt 95% of the UK even know what a peer reviewed journal even is or where to find one. You could show them 100 studies saying its safe, but it only takes one to say it isnt to undo the work of the previous 100, and thats the one thats going to make headlines and people are going to read.
As I said my little boy's had the jab and to be honest the literature thats sent through regarding the MMR is not very good, relying on scaremongering rather than any facts.
Oh and if mercury isnt the most toxic substance on the planet blame that on my old physics teacher who told me it was when I broke a thermometer and he started acting like ebola had just been released into the classroom...
So that Ukranian politican just broke a thermometer then rather than being poisoned with TCDD (one of the most toxic, but thats what the internet says so may be right).
The conspiracy theorists will be pissed when they hear aboot that.
Peer reviewed scientific publications are where its at. The press can be OK, but a pinch of salt is required. Unfortunately the headline "MMR is not inherently bad! doesn't sell the papers.
Conks
why has no one actually spent time and effort on corroborating or disproving his work?
TJ, go to the PubMed site that Barney links to above and do a search for "MMR Autism". You'll find a shedload of studies, not one of which corroborates Wakefield's findings or backs up the media hand-wringing.
Hi Jeremy
[i]why has no one actually spent time and effort on corroborating or disproving his work?[/i]
I found at least one on PubMed (although linky doesn't seem to work!)
Lack of Association between Measles Virus Vaccine and Autism with Enteropathy: A Case-Control Study
Mady Hornig,1* Thomas Briese,1 Timothy Buie,2 Margaret L. Bauman,3 Gregory Lauwers,4 Ulrike Siemetzki,1 Kimberly Hummel,5 Paul A. Rota,5 William J. Bellini,5 John J. O'Leary,6 Orla Sheils,6 Errol Alden,7 Larry Pickering,8 and W. Ian Lipkin1*
I'm sure there are others (I haven't got time, again).. there will be many reasons why people haven't leapt to his attack or defence; largely due I suspect to the way that these things are funded. Certainly disproving an already discredited paper isn't what I'd call sexy research 🙂
Or maybe we're just not aware of them because it's not "exciting" and doesn't sell newspapers :-/
[i] You could show them 100 studies saying its safe, but it only takes one to say it isnt to undo the work of the previous 100, and thats the one thats going to make headlines and people are going to read.[/i]
I know; that's what's depressing 🙁
My old physics teacher used to have a 5l beaker of mercury he'd put his hand into....
He's got autism now (joke)
one person in 17 years has died in the UK as a result of measles and that was more due to the lung infection he had
Which of course had nothing to do with the successful programme of immunisation.
bit OT - but can we subscribe to topics again? Ive had this page on refresh all day now!
He's got autism now (joke)
He'll be one of the people posting on here about lining up tyre logos then. 😉
Bigdawg - I think depending on your browser you can do an RSS feed?
my daughter had the mmr I'm a medic and aware of the facts not the hearsay thanks. There is no way i'd expose my child to the risk of encephalitis etc thankyou. It would be nice if other parents did the same to provide adequate herd immunity. In some western countries your kids can't go to school or nursery unless vaccinated, it would be sad if the uk became as authoritarian but it could easily happen if vaccination levels continue to fall.
Barney - I have followed this debate with interest since it started. While I have not read that study you quote I have seen great critism of several studies supposedly debunking Wakefields work. Basically they were not looking for the same thing he was so of course they didn't find it. Certainly the research rushed out at the time of the controversy was as badly flawed as Wakefield weork - it looked at the wrong children in the wrong age group so had no bearing on Wakefield work.
mercury (the most toxic substance on the planet)
Plutonium takes that title IIRC.
Back to MMR, as has been stated try PubMed or Cochrane for peer reviewed papers. Trouble is that unless you are used to reading them they can be a little obscure and full of unuseual terms.
One reason for the link between MMR and autism as the symptoms of autism start to present them selves about the same age as kids are immunised. There are stronger links between Autism and parents who are both of a scientific / engineering bent, also it is predominantly boys who display autistic symptoms so immunising girls should be fine (or show a massive jump in the number of female autistics following the MMR introduction...some thing that I have not been able to find)
SSP
Wife did quite a bit of work with an autistic boy while at uni studdying Psychology and the mother-in-law works for an Autism charity...hence my knowlege in this non-engineering subject!
my experience for what it's worth....
I had mumps & measels as a kid and I'm deaf in one ear as a result
my wife is a peadiatric (sp?) consultant so i would consider her to be well informed... our Son had his MMR last week.