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Oh - and violence against children is massively down. Success to the social workers I say.
I'm usually quite forgiving and I understand about bad temper, but for sustained, systematic, planned abuse - I am not forgiving.
I'm not forgiving about this either and I can't say that I feel sorry for him getting attacked BUT I wouldn't want it to be the norm that it's accepted, expected or allowed. Again it's about the kind of society we are and I'd rather teach kids that we can still do the right thing even when provoked.
Hi TJ, luckily I've been rest days since Thursday lunchtime! Back for an ED Monday though, cant wait to see what 90 prisoners on methodone have been up to over the weekend!
Gouching out is my guess 🙂
2 wrongs don't make a right, but in this case I'd happily make an exception. And yes I'd happily throw the lever and watch him wriggle briefly - and get a good nights sleep 😉
I couldn't care less what happened to the likes of them to be honest.
As usual , the do-gooders who stick up for these scumbags probably live in nice little bubbles where nothing bad ever happens to them or their families, or their friends or to anyone they know.
Well if you have kids, and you have any sympathy with that scumbag then you seriously need to read what they did to that poor kid. Im 38 years old, and a bit of a lad, but it bought tears to my eyes reading it.
Glad they didnt actually kill him, and I hope it hurts every day for the rest of his life !!!
Is it success to social workers? Or is it that we (thankfully) continue to move away from the Victorian ethos of sending children up chimneys and down mines? - which is what I was saying, a change in mindset.
Slightly different angle: is it humane to lock people up for long periods - ie life? Personally I'd rather be put to sleep.
I'm not saying we should give all prisoners knives / electric kettles and let them deal their own brand of justice, but I can't say my heart bleeds for this bloke and privately I feel quite pleased.
Sorry if that offends some of you.
Revs - no one is sticking up for him - I certainly am not. I simply don't believe in an eye for an eye nor do I believe in vigilante justice
Well if you have kids, and you have any sympathy with that scumbag then you seriously need to read what they did to that poor kid. Im 38 years old, and a bit of a lad, but it bought tears to my eyes reading it.
Glad they didn't actually kill him, and I hope it hurts every day for the rest of his life !!!
I have kids (3), 40 yrs old, no sympathy for him - but he's removed from society. I deal with a great number of kids every working day. I just can't see how hurting him helps in any way. It allows some sadistic sort to get pleasure. If it's your tax revenue you're worried about......?
What are you doing to prevent it happening again, because hurting him won't make a jot of difference.
Karine - its clearly multi factorial but its also clearly in large part because of better child protection procedures all round. Its a big change in a short time-scale
Personally i hope that what happened to Baby P happens to all of those involved so they could try and slightly understand what that poor defenseless baby had to endure during its 2 years of [s]life[/s] torture. Bugger this ' 2 rights dont make a wrong' crap, these people are vile humans that dont deserve to be on this planet. The sooner they die the better. Only 2 things will happen to these people
1/ HOPEFULLY they will die in prison or
2/ When they finally get out they will be tortured. I know i would feel betrayed by 'our' justice system if when they do get out and get new identities ( which like James Bulger's killers they will) they end up next door to me. If that happened to you how would you feel with your kids running about outside knowing what he has done??
My view is that prison should neither be about rehabilitation or retribution... but about CONTAINMENT.
My heart isn't breaking for this guy either but prisoner administered justice is the scummiest sort of revenge.
TJ - child protection? It shouldn't be an issue. You should not hurt little kids - full stop. Actually, you shouldn't hurt anyone or anything but in the case of little kids there are no mitigating factors. I realise that we cannot as a society condone torture (unless you are a suspected terrorist of course) but privately I am pleased that he's been scalded and I hope it happens again. He should be executed and so should Jamie Bulger's killers and those boys who were in the news the other week, and their parents too... Give it 5 or 10 years of hard justice and we will start to see results. You know how you wouldn't dream of going out without your underpants and trousers on? It's so ingrained that you don't even consciously think about it. Well, that's how it should be about cruelty, just so completely off the radar that no-one even considers it, and if it did ever pop into someone's mind they would feel sick.
Karine - can you not understand - the people who commit these sorts of crimes are usually psycopathic ( or have other mental flaws)- they have no understanding of right from wrong. What you suggest will make no difference as has been proven time and time again.
No one take a rational decision to hurt a child.
It simply does not work - you cannot deter a psychopath by example like that.
ooh, i've just had an idea on how to please everyone
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karenofnine, while there are exceptions, many abusive adults are themselves former victims of physically and mentally abusive parents.
If you are really serious about using execution as a way of solving the problem, then surely society should consider humane termination of all abuse victims as well? That would surely break the cycle?
I'm not being serious, of course.
I can't support Hypocracy in these cases, as bad as they are. The upstanding majority and innocent bystanders whipped up into a murdering frenzy. Richard Ramirez said something like "you would all love to kill me and see me dead, tell me?, what is the difference between me and you?. I did what Governments do on a much larger scale".
If he's been scaled to the size of a small child surely the issue of retribution becomes a lot more complicated?
I think the system is.... ok (ish)
I know people (hard men and women and silly little boys and girls alike)who have been to prison and it has definately scared the crap out of them.. either the violent bullying atmosphere or the solitude or the claustrophobia has horrified them and caused them to moderate their behaviour upon their release..
I know others who love it and can't wait to get back inside.. (generally I'm fairly glad that these type of folk aree in a hurry to get back behind bars.. out of sight out of mind and off my street!)
It has always been a given... (as far as I am aware) that people who commit crimes against children are likely to encounter extremely unpleasant treatment while they serve their sentence.. such is life.
Actually, you shouldn't hurt anyone or anything
He should be executed and so should Jamie Bulger's killers and those boys who were in the news the other week, and their parents too...
?
I really hope you're trolling.
An overwhelming majority in the UK abhor this kind of abuse and can't relate to it. As TJ said, those who do it are sick and don't reason normally. If Social Services were given more powers to monitor and intervene, we'd be bleating about nanny states. If baby P had lived in a 'better area' with more community minded neighbours and wider family support, this wouldn't have happened.
On a moral point: Let us assume that the perpetrator has become a sadistic paedophile by
1: Being born that way (inherent nature, therefore not responsible in the same way that a wasp is not responsible for being a wasp, say) or
2: Being made that way (subject to the same sort of attack when young, therefore a victim).
Given that, in neither case, their actions are those of someone who is responsible for their nature, how is it right to inflict pain or death on them as if they were morally culpable?
A difficult question for which the impulse is, to look for an easy answer...
I'm really hoping for a reply from the "hang, torture and floggem" brigade...
Nothing yet.
I am just wondering if those of you who are not in the "hang, torture and floggem" brigade have any [i]first hand knowledge[/i] of what you're talking about?
I can appreciate both arguements - but Reading the case it's bloody difficult not take the stance of revenge, it's a natural response.
On a moral point: Let us assume that the perpetrator has become a sadistic paedophile by1: Being born that way (inherent nature, therefore not responsible in the same way that a wasp is not responsible for being a wasp, say) or
2: Being made that way (subject to the same sort of attack when young, therefore a victim).
Given that, in neither case, their actions are those of someone who is responsible for their nature, how is it right to inflict pain or death on them as if they were morally culpable?
A difficult question for which the impulse is, to look for an easy answer...
So then what is the answer?. If a wasp stings you what do you instinctively do? Try to swat it, kill it, revenge for stinging you?? Of course you do
Or put it this way, what as humans can we do. Either keep him in prison, which will be costly and pointless?. Pointless to the part of why have someone locked away for the rest of their lifes, it serves no purpose at all. Rehabilittion? . Great news BUT what happens if he does it again. Could YOU go round to the parents of that child and explain well we thought we rehabilitated him but i guess not. Put yourself in the shoes of them. Its also very easy to say spend more on social services but sometimes things happen that even they would have no powers to foresee.
I'm all for giving second, third, fourth chances to people but only the majority, bank robbers, drug smugglers, car thieves etc where the nature of the crime is not to inflict unneeded and simply horrific cruelty on people but the minority needs to learn that what they do will not be tolerated by our race. Some other countries cut of hands etc, we need to be more tactile in our judgements as a preventative
Also, bearing in mind that "Prison as dissuader" doesn't work - after all, if it did, the prisons wouldn't be full to bursting...
Or, for that matter, the Death Penalty - people still commit murder where it is in force.
Or is it just satisfying the urge to revenge something that's not even, directly, anything to do with you?
Or, for that matter, the Death Penalty - people still commit murder where it is in force.
Not the same person though
I am just wondering if those of you who are not in the "hang, torture and floggem" brigade have any first hand knowledge of what you're talking about?
Anyone unfortunate enough to have this "first hand knowledge" is the least able to make a proper judgement about what should be done to the perpetrators of abuse.
A response founded in pain, rage and hate is exactly what we need to avoid in our justice system.
Exactly. That's the difference between a justice system and a revenge system.
I agree with johnners - I think any involvement of a victim in the criminal's punishment is bizarre.
But having said that bad people are more likely to inflict nasty punishments than good and prison is full of bad people so it's perhaps a good way of criminals getting a taste of what society would rather happened to them than those that have to do what seems best with regards to human rights and living in a nice society...if it happens in prison it's suitably detached for most of us to not worry about. And most of us will shed no tears for chaps like that. A significant chunk of people, perhaps even the majority, would be quite happy for criminals of a certain type to kinda disappear - they maybe just don't really want to know about it.
..if it happens in prison it's suitably detached for most of us to not worry about. And most of us will shed no tears for chaps like that. A significant chunk of people, perhaps even the majority, would be quite happy for criminals of a certain type to kinda disappear - they maybe just don't really want to know about it.
[url= http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/mannheim/publications/cohen1.htm ]Stan Cohen[/url]
"do-gooders"
Every time someone uses that as a perjorative, I can't help but smile 
I agree northwind - along with the use of liberal in the same way.
TJ -Proud to be a liberal do-gooder
+1 Northwind
Doing good? You fools!