[Closed] BA strike back on

I've given up caring.

i haven't

no flights means no conference delegates which means i get to sit on my arse and turn satellite links on and off instead 🙂

I must admit that I agree that the point of Union Law that BA said made the strike illegal did come across as petty, small minded and unlikely to help resolve the situation.

I'm hoping that many crew will ignore that strike and turn up for work.

bored now

I think that Willy Walsh and the union bod seem as bad as each other. Two little Hitlers butting heads. They don't seem to give a monkeys about how anyone else is affected on any side. Id make them stop all the posturing and settle it in a gladatorial arena in front of a baying mob. More interesting

Well I won't be using BA in a hurry and hope they can resolve it.

Booked with someone else because of all this so they've done the damage. I'm now more worried about volcanoes than strikes.

It is not an edifying spectacle at all. 2 ignorant and stubborn people banging up against each other with neither one willing to back down. To call for 5 day strikes is an insane and stupid thing to do - and something that is only guaranteed to help break BA as a company. While I agree the BA tactic to go to the courts over an incredibly trivial irregularity is, however, entirely understandable as a way to stop the strike happening and is exactly what the Union would do as well if the shoe was on the other foot. The rate this dispute is going everyone at BA will soon be able to thank Unite and the Heathrow cabin crew for nuking their jobs. I have always had a soft spot for BA and in the past have used them in preference to others (for a truly awful flying experience try United). However, I can't trust them anymore that a booking I make will be honoured so I will avoid them - at least until the dispute is over. The whole issue though does bring together, quite nicely, most of the reasons why some people hate unions and others hate capitalist executives.

I believe BA has agreed to the original deal but is refusing to reinstate the non-contract perks which those on strike lost. So they're now going on strike over something they were never technically entitled to anyway, which is only going to end in tears for everyone.

you seem to fail to realise that the Union bod has the full backing of the membership in this matterand is representing their views. He is a figure head for their bad feeling. Walsh seems spectacularily inept How do you turn trolly dollies into the equivalent of 1970's dockers or car workers with similiar levels of hatred and industrial action? Clearly BA has badly managed what they were wishing to achieve in terms of a restructure. They clearly have pi55ed off almost all their employees ...whatever your view you cant do that and be a good manager. I supect the company will fold or Walsh will be pushed aside to do a deal.

did come across as petty, small minded and unlikely to help resolve the situation.

So was the original request by the staff.

He is a figure head for their bad feeling.

Curious, I know BA staff members (cabin crew) who disagree wholely with it and seem to be confused as to exactly who was voting for the action (original).

They clearly have pi55ed off almost all their employees ...

I have friends who are pilots, ground crew, and back-office, and to a man they support Walsh against their colleagues in cabin crew on this point. They've all accepted their share of the restructuring and see this as a part of the workforce risking all of their livelihoods based on a failure to realise how cushy their pay and perks have been for years.

My flights next week have been affected yet I'm doing all i can to rebook onto BA flights that will run so i can support them through this.

you seem to fail to realise that the Union bod has the full backing of the membership

...hence the number of cabin crew union members that provided their full backing by working through the last strike (and will do so through this one also)...

If you look at the figures only around 60% of union members actually voted for strike action at the second ballot. Still a majority, but hardly 'full backing'. And BASSA/Unite don't represent all cabin crew.

mrmichaelwright - Member
no flights means no conference delegates

zaskar - Member
Well I won't be using BA in a hurry

Onzadog - Member
Booked with someone else because of all this so they've done the damage.

Does anything else need to be said?

Does anything else need to be said?

I took two flights with BA during the last strike and they sorted me out for both of them?

I've got a booking on BA next week, they've kept me fully informed and, with one small adjustment, I'm confident I'll still be flying with them?

I never realised how well connected the STW massif was with BA perhaps you should launch a court case to appeal the ballot. I am sure your methodology will stand up to a legal challenge as fair and robust.

If you look at the figures only around 60% of union members actually voted for strike action at the second ballot

Junkyard - it seems you've been reading socialist worker propaganda. The reality is that on top of the normal basic wages they get plenty of extra allowances that make the starting wage far higher, the only way you get the really low end money is if you flatly refuse to do anything other than the very minimum possible. I went to school with and still am good mates with a chap who has been in it since he left uni and he's currently better paid than I am by following the basic promotion options open to him.

Certainly swallowed something...

Yes, 60% is more than voted for the current coalition government. And it's more than half; that was why I said it's [i]still a majority[/i]. However, it's not the "full backing" of the union members as you were claiming. And nor is it necessarily a majority of BA cabin crew as a whole (I've no idea how many are not Unite/BASSA members).

starting salry a disgusting 11k

My next door neighbour (BA cabin crew) earns £11K but in reality it's more like £29K. She isn't striking. Some senior cabin crew earn ~£60K.
Virgin staff get £14K, that's it.
If BA go down, they'll all be working for a fraction of their current salary for a different airline. Mainly because of 2 egomaniacs.

Typical of the previous discussion we had on this.

Starting salary £11K? Do you want to advise the nice people what the average salary is for a member of cabin crew?

I have friends who are pilots, ground crew, and back-office, and to a man they support Walsh against their colleagues in cabin crew on this point.

Virgin staff get £14K, that's it.

Organise what?
That's the pay. If it's not enough, they will have to do what everyone else on the planet has to and find another job.

Unite said that 78.77% of the 11,691 ballot papers issued were returned. Of those 80.7% (7,482) supported taking action with 1,789 voting against it

Data from the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) shows for the first time how much higher BA’s wage costs are than its rivals. The average salary for BA’s 14,000 cabin crew, including bonuses and allowances, is £29,900, compared with £14,400 at Virgin Atlantic and £20,200 at easyJet. BA’s pilots earn an average of £107,600, compared with £89,500 at Virgin and £71,400 at easyJet.

Are you saying that virgin atlantic are more akin to easyjet than BA? Their prices are certainly more like BAs.
Can't you just look at the evidence and admit that they are on a good thing? They are and they know they are. Even the most left wing could see that.

BA is a premium airline with premium prices rather than a budget airline with their business model and prices. If you go with BA you dont expect Easy jet style treatment or conditions do you?

So, what, you expect easyJet pilots to work to low cost standards too?

To use the analogy: the trouble is that the public are happy in a recession to stay at Premier Inn rather than Hilton. The service is still good, the beds are clean, and it's a fraction of the price.

So, what, you expect easyJet pilots to work to low cost standards too

Can't you just look at the evidence and admit that they are on a good thing? They are and they know they are. Even the most left wing could see that.

BA's premium service stopped quite a while ago to be honest... I (used to) fly with them twice a week for a few years - it's def went down hill in the past few years.

I've booked with them to go to whislter over the august bank holiday, and frankly i'm sh1tting bricks that it's not resolved by then. That said the staff are clearly taking the piss.

I am sure you can accept that workers , like MPs tend to not vote for pay cuts even if they know the pay is very good.

The pilots accepted it

Ground crew accepted it

Admin and backoffice staff accepted it

- all realising it was essential so that the airline could remain competitive in 'the market'

I don't actually blame the cabin crew. It's the idiots at the top of the Union that have convinced them that they can bring the airline down by withholding their labour, and now they're in too deep to back out. Why should BA back down now. They made offers on the proviso no strike action was called and then it was called anyway, so they withdrew the offer. And 70% or so of flights will go ahead (maybe more - let's see how many of the staff that voted for action will forego 4 weeks wages when it comes to it, and that doesn't count those that voted against or didn't vote - which let's face it in this context is a vote against striking).

The Union is supposed to support the interestes of its members and in this case they'd have been better to accept the offer as given instead of ****ing about as they have.

Has anyone else read the article which suggested Woodley is posturing on this one knowing they won't win as a prelude to other disputes coming later this year so in those cases - which have more merits that this one - he'll have created a 'reputation'??

They made offers on the proviso no strike action was called and then it was called anyway, so they withdrew the offer

Marc Meryon, a partner at the Bircham Dyson Bell law firm, who specialises in industrial law said the dismissal of Duncan Holley, branch secretary of the British Airways Stewards and Stewardesses Association, the Unite division that represents BA cabin crew, could inflame tensions in the dispute. "Sacking a union representative is about the worst thing that can happen," he said

and in this case they'd[union] have been better to accept the offer as given instead of ****ing about as they have.

Has anyone else read the article which suggested Woodley is posturing on this one knowing they won't win as a prelude to other disputes coming later this year so in those cases - which have more merits that this one - he'll have created a 'reputation'??

go back to work, i dont give a shit as i got a pikey van , and im going away for 2 weeks to scotland init.

posting this from an internet kiosk in Vienna which i've just set up, flying home Sunday to fly to Athens on Monday to set up another exhibit. Mixture of Easy Jet Austrian Airlines and Olympic. All flights origanall y booked on BA. June UK to Rome to UK to US US to Rhodes. Would usually be BA but guessing I'll be booked on other airlines now.

"To call for 5 day strikes is an insane and stupid thing to do - and something that is only guaranteed to help break BA as a company."

If that's true then it's not insane and stupid at all- if the union genuinely can threaten to break the company they'd be stupid not to, and the company would be stupid not to respond.

BA's in a mess, cabin crew terms and conditions are a tiny part of it, on Walsh's watch they've pissed money away on terminal 5, been taken apart by the courts for amateur price fixing, and hopelessly mismanaged their fuel hedging, and that's cost massively more than they're seeking to save from these crew cuts. And all the while losing footfall and failing to respond to changes i the market. But apparently it's only the crew cuts that are going to "break the company".

If I was cynical, I'd say there's a little thought in Willie Walsh's head that says "Uh oh, I'm clearly an incompetent, if anyone pays any attention to what I've actually done they'll kill me. I'd better find a scapegoat".

They made offers on the proviso no strike action was called and then it was called anyway, so they withdrew the offer

As i said bad management exactly how to not handle a negotiation.

Why? If they'd caved in on this what next? 'Yes, we said we'd withdraw the offer but we won't really. In fact, hold us to ransom and we'll cave in every time'.

Re: the decision to take the offer or go on strike. There may be a ground swell of opinion but they are imho being badly advised, and as a consequence are being led to the wrong decisions. And the decision to go to 20 days of stoppages shocked many of the membership - that wasn't expected or wanted by most of them but they're now too scared of the union / more militant members to back out. Or are they - we'll see who turns up to work next week and the week after.

I don't have a link to the 'offers' for other staff - this is as told to me by one of their pilots and separately one of their backroom staff.

It wasnt in a right wing or Murdooh owned paper was it by any chance?

May have been, I can't locate it.

are you suggesting we rid our selves of the market and pay them all the same?

I have suggested no such thing. Only that even with the new offer, the BA crew are still considerably better off than those working for other airlines doing the same job. All of your other points, I happen to agree with. As to Northwinds post, the fact that BA have been so wasteful just reinforces the fact that cuts are needed.

jonv it is bad management as it is bullying take this or we will offer nothing and withdraw this....kind of confrontational dont you think? Yes there bluff has been called and now what do they do just refuse to negotiate and say we told you so? that is why it is bad management you negotiate change you cannot force it on people.
As for blaming the union are 80% of the members so easily led that they can be persuaded by false facts to strike?

Re the offers I cant find anything from a quick Google as to what each bit were offered I have heard it said but not seen the evidenc ehence sceptism but in honesty I dont know either way.

Only that even with the new offer, the BA crew are still considerably better off than those working for other airlines doing the same job

Organise what?

fickin union membership shite - outdated antiquated rubbish - if you don't like your job look for another

I love all the unionistas out there. Whether people believe they are entitled to a better wage / conditions is pretty irrelevant in a market based economy. If BA could justify prices high enough to pay their staff over the odds because in some way the staff made the whole service that much better than any other airline then they would be entitled to the money. The reality is BA has just made a horrendous loss (and therefore either can not afford the higher wage bills or justify higher prices to cover their costs). Yep there no doubt is some management incompetance within BA, there is in most companies, much of it was probably evident in that they allowed their employees terms and conditions to get so out of kilter with the market in the first place.

I suspect Willie Walsh has been brought in for this as his sole job - sort out the union issue. He may fall on his (golden) sword once everything is settled for the good of the company.

BA is different from Virgin et al - it's the equivalent of an old nationalised company - with the old working 'practices' and union ties. All others are pretty much fresh start-ups compared to it. IIRC there's a little political manoeuvring going on in the union too - I think one of the two joint-leaders of Unite will be the general secretary next year and BA-bashing will be high on their CVs.

Teh bad management stems from allowing the confrontation to arise. remeber the union side have consistently offered to negotiate seriously and have offered most of what the management wanted - virtiually all the savings.

Management have since ratcheted things up by sacking / suspending all the union activists and unilaterally altering the terms and conditions ( perks become part of your contract under custom and practice)

A good management could easily have got 90% of what they wanted without this bitter dispute - its about braking the union - nothing else and don't be fooled

The Union escalated this disputeit. BA were prepared to negotiate as long as no action was announced. The union announced it, BA withdrew the offer - simple as. It's not bullying, BA is following through on what was promised at the time.

No-one's being asked to take paycuts, iirc. It's a change to staffing levels, a freeze on increases, and changes to the pay scales for new starters. Walsh himself says he's taking action that chief execs before should have taken. The management isn't without fault over T5, fuel surcharges, for sure, but saying 'we got stuff wrong before so we shouldn't fix what we can now' doesn't seem sensible. The rest of the company can get their heads round that point, why not the cabin crew (imho this is where the Union is misrepresenting the long term interests of their membership)

Finally - 80% persuaded by false facts to strike. Read your own numbers. 64% of those balloted voted for a strike. The rest - votes against and abstainees can be read to be against it, wouldn't you say? And it remains to be seen how many actually do strike for 3 weeks. BA says it will run ca 70% service. With 20% of the crew? Sounds to me like gross overstaffing.

Well, they'll soon be out of a job soon if they carry on. Then they can strike for as long as they want.

Well between them the have royally naused this one up. The company is sitting on losses us mere mortals can only dream of in terms of scale and now just about every potential customer with any sense will be running to the competition. Their rights to perks should be the least of their worries, pay cuts and job losses all around me thinks.

I'm sitting on 20,000 airmiles I'm not planning on using for another 12months or so; as BA are the main airline used, I wonder what worth they will have by then....