[Closed] autumn international rugby

Oi! BBC! SHOW THE RUGBY NOW! NOT THE TENNIS!

FFS, we're missing the singing and the Pacific Islands XV's silly little dance!

Weird missing post bumper!

On the red button now.

****ING BBC AAAAAAAAAAAARGH!

Looks like Wilko's record is going to be smashed tonight 🙁

Well, that wasn't as bad as it might have been! A brave Welsh performance, with some great attacking defensive lines, some real commitment and played with real passion.

Good to see McCheat getting properly refereed early on, as well as getting a dose of his own dirty medicine near the end (For which Powell must be cited, IMO).

Overall, a good Wales performance let down by a few little moments of weakness.

On another note - Referees have to learn how to deal with the scrum.
[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/8157529/Brian-Moore-Rugby-union-referees-have-a-lot-to-answer-for-as-scrums-develop-into-farce.html ]Thought it pains me to admit it, Brian Moore is spot on here. [/url]

Not a bad tour for the AB's, good game and the welsh played well.Oh and it pains me to agree with flash butt, scrums suck at the mo.

Flash I am in the States so missed all the autumn games would you or anyone else care to sum up how we did. Seems the usual curates egg and missed opportunities. Anyone calling for Gatlands head yet?

No not you Backhander 😉

Flash disappointed you are a McCaw hater, he is a fantastic player and does what every good flanker should do ..... push the rules to and past breaking point.

so who did best out of the home nations in their autumn internationals?

Scotland - one humping, one good win, one just scraped thru. I'd have taken that at the begining. I'd like to have seen Jackson. Weir, Grove and Cairns get a bit more game time but reasonably happy 6.5 / 10. Can someone sell us a standoff please? Just for a year or two until Weir gets up to speed. Some tries would be nice. w/e won't get far in the 6N without

England - can't be happy with two out of four. A very mixed bag Ashton , Foden, Lawes proved themselves worthy, Flood, Youngs OK. Still too much stodge from the forwards and centres IMO, didn't somone from the RFU says heads would roll without 3 wins?

Wales - oh dead oh dear. Valient defeat against NZ but the rest its hard to find positives. Look confused and ill coached

Ireland - not seen much of their games but are the team now over the hill? Tehy must be disapointed as well

As a Scotland supporter I am reasonably happy. Tries needed and Jackson and Weir need to be brought on quickly. Even playing well parks remains a limited player.

push the rules to and past breaking point.

As an (ex) flanker myself, I hate anyone who's good at it, as I know how much cheating it involves! I also have concerns over the way NZ are refereed overall, as it seems to often be the case of one rule for them and one for the rest. Oh, and what he did to BOD was unforgivable in any sporting arena.

Overall, Wales were pretty much as you say, a curate's egg. There was the emergence of George North, who looks to be a real talent for the future. AWJ continued to develop in to the next Lions captain, as I believe he should be. Adam is perhaps the nicest man in world rugby as well as now being one of the top performing tight heads. Gethin has superb speed around the park and formed part of any number of excellent front row combinations.

But.... Too much losing the ball in the contact, too many sill errors (viz Byrne's missing of touch yesterday) and not enough straightening up and passing the ball from the contact (A la Sonny Bill Williams,
who's awesome at that!)

No need for heads to roll, IMO. It was a pretty tasty egg overall, and I suspect there'll be better breakfasts soon.

I also have concerns over the way NZ are refereed overall, as it seems to often be the case of one rule for them and one for the rest.

The ref'ing seems to change at world cups though, which may be why England and SA do rather better - less emphasis on open runnning rugby, more on actually applying the laws at the breakdown.

too many sill errors (viz Byrne's missing of touch yesterday)

Wales lose concentration at vital points. They will do all the hard work, and then forget to eg catch the ball at the 5m lineout or whatever. Very similar to the way the Ospreys play.

They played much better in the second half overall (despite the end scoreline!), and if they carry on that way should do well in the 6N.

Wales fans in self delusion SHOCKA!

But.... Too much losing the ball in the contact, too many sill errors (viz Byrne's missing of touch yesterday) and not enough straightening up and passing the ball from the contact (A la Sonny Bill Williams,
who's awesome at that!)

Wales have a front 5 that can compete with the best thats a big positive from the autumn games as is the emergence of Warbaton and Lydiate, other than that its what we always knew, a few injuries and they struggle badly.

Much as no one will want to hear it and I do love him s but a fit on form Henson is the player to straighten and pass before contact. Even without him adding Roberts, Shane and 1/2p to that backline would make a huge difference.

Wales England to open the 6 nations will be huge if Wales can get most of there best players out.

Deadlydarcey, the welsh pack is in a better position than the irish given the old timers Ireland rely on.

wales did well not to be be over run by NZ in the first half like scotland were and I also think they made NZ more worried than Ireland

Springbok side was impressive yesterday. I could not believe the amount of pain the English side experienced in the first half just by trying to play hardball.
"Chris Ashton played on despite taking a blow to the head in a collision with Victor Matfield, which left the Springbok captain with a broken rib."
Matfield had a broken rib and played on without showing any signs of injury. Respect ❗

kiwi's dont like a taste of their own medicine, no worse than Thorns shot on Hook in first half.

It's funny how when you're at a game it can look different to how it does on TV.
I was at the England game yesterday and it didn't look as bad as the press make out - it was a hard-fought match at the end of a long season. England defended really well against an agressive South African forward line, whose backs were pretty poor with so many handling errors which unfortunately England couldn't take advantage of. I don't think it was errors that cost them the game, just a lack of ingenuity and capitulating to the SA forwards.
At the end of the game, England showed some glimmers of the way they played against Australia, running with (albeit desperate) confidence out of their own 22, but it was too little too late.
Pudding of the day was Courtney Lawes, who despite getting favourable comments in the press, could be seen physically trembling when facing the SA forwards and stopping dead in his gangly tracks. Then towards the end his error cost England their best chance of a try.

Brakes - the excuse for the first match defeat was that it was the first game for a while and they were rusty, the excuse for the 4th match is that its the end of a long hard season?

The England forwards simply are not up to it. To slow between the ears and across the pitch. I never thought I would see the day when Scotlands pack were bigger stronger and faster and more skillful than Englands.

England management and fans need to quit with the self delusion.

In the words of the Scottish football song
" we're crap and we know it"

I never thought I would see the day when Scotlands pack were bigger stronger and faster and more skillful than Englands.

Backhander - there is none of the england forwards would displace one of the scots from the team.

The scots simply are bigger stronger and faster - and have better ball skills

Try to make a case for one.

What? Why don't you try to justify your claims.

I think the results against SA show it. 🙂

Front row - Jacobsen / Sheridan. Not a lot in it but Jacobsen is less of a penalty machine
Hartley / Ford. Ford far better around the park, Hartley a penalty liability.
Murray / Cole/ Murray no contest in the tight and the loose.

Locks. No contest. Lawes looks a find but compared to Grey? Gray is bigger stronger faster and has such ball skills. Hines the enforcer with the skills of a basketball player.

Back Row

Croft - good player no doubt. If Scotland did not have such a strong group of back row forwards he would be the one I would most like to have. However he is no great improvement over Kelly Brown - but he is prettier.

Vernon / Moody - two contrasting players but I have never been a great moody fan - all running around and getting no where. Vernon another skillfull and most importantly fast player. Little in it.

Barclay / Easter. Barclay is truly world class, Easter is simply too slow despite waht else he can do..

So Croft / Lawes, Moody and maybe Sheridan would challenge their counterparts, None are obviously better although in the case of Moody simply different.

The lesson England seem incapable of learning is that in the modern game you need forwards with speed - to get to the breakdown to get that quick ball and forwards with ball playing skills. A group of lumbering giants is no good if they can't get to the ball. Look at the way Jacobson has improved his game.

Scotlands pack was heavier than their opponents in every match I think but without sacrificing the skill and the speed. If only we had a few decent backs - only Blair and Evans and maybe Morrison would be challenging for a place in the England team.

I can't be arsed to argue with you TJ as we both know what you can be like. Needless to say I disagree with many of your opinions but this is only going to be resolved on way; 13th march 2011 at Twickenham. Then we'll see who has the better team, forwards and backs. Fair enough?

not sure I totally agree with TJ, the scots locks aint much and for all the overhyping of sheridan he's better than Jacobson.
Tell you what though the england pack was schooled by SA yesterday and I wouldnt take any home nations front five as a unit over Gethin, Rees, Jones, Davis and AW Jones. Just need a ball carrying 8 with a brain, maybe Toby Felatio will go up quick!

I have never been a great moody fan - all running around and getting no where.

I agree, just because you've made a career out of assualting peoples boots with your head, doesnt mean you are any good.

Not a lot in it but Jacobsen is less of a penalty machine

and more of a tubby lardarse, slow about the pitch.

Murray, however, is one of the best 3s I've seen playing the game.

Now, as a neutral, can I say how much I'd love to see Argentina win? 😉

AWJ will not captain the next Lions team, in fact I'll be surprised if he makes the test team by then. Thought he would turn into a genuine world class lock, but he hasn't and any welsh fan who says he has is delusional. Thought the welsh performance in lots of ways was depressingly bad - unable to convert simple overlaps and perform simple defensive duties, missing simple kicks to touch, line out awful once more.... Not sure I want to watch them any more 🙁

AA - have you seen Gray play? I think he will mature into a great player. He is huge but not slow, he has great ballplaying skills and great awareness. I have seen him do a give and take, do dummy passes and score tries, out run backs. Do you not rate Hines?

CFH - he has improved his fitness and speed this year fairly clearly.

Backhander - the English backs are a whole heap better - unfortunatly 🙂

Scotland bossed the springboks pack, springboks bossed the english pack. The Scotland pack is a great unit. More than the sum of its parts.

Can we have some backs tho please?

Deadlydarcey, the welsh pack is in a better position than the irish given the old timers Ireland rely on.

I don't believe you'll find any example of Irish self-delusion on this thread. Plenty of Welsh self-delusion from what I can see. And Scottish too 😀

in fact I'll be surprised if he makes the test team by then

he already has hasnt he, he's very good. What do you see as his drawbacks? He needs a big ugly bastard alongside him but then so does Matfield.

No welsh self delusion here, they will never win a worldcup anytime soon, but I will give you very good odds on them getting another grandslam before Ireland get their third!
Ireland, England, Wales are much of a muchness but wales have the least strength in depth (and beyond therir first 15 are worryingly weak) and England the most.

So - who wants to predict the six nations final table? My record in doing so is not great 🙂 But if I stick my neck out you guys must as well.

I would have said France to win but what happened to them yesterday?

England - are you Scotland is disguise? good one week poor the next.

Scotland have a good draw this year and a settle team playing well ( if we forget one game)

So France / ireland fighting fore the win, England / scotland scrapping for third. Wales / Italy for fighting for the wooden spoon

Final table

France
Ireland
Scotland
England
Wales
Italy

in fact I'll be surprised if he makes the test team by then

he already has hasnt he, he's very good. What do you see as his drawbacks? He needs a big ugly bastard alongside him but then so does Matfield.

aa, I know he made the first test but then was shown to be wanting somewhat. No disgrace to be replaced, partciularly when Shaw (probably the most under-rated player of the last 10 years) was the man called in. AWJ lacks physical prescence and hasn't developed his game to the point where he can be called world class. Perhaps as you say he needs an enforcer alongside him but that's part of the welsh malaise - no genuinely hard forwards anymore.

You keep comparing a_a...whereas, I haven't anywhere.

Meh...I really didn't see anything to impress from the NH sides in the autumn internationals.

Ireland are ageing, especially in the pack, and have no scrum or lineout (a massive stength and match-winner over the last few years) without O'Connell (who despite being back in a week or two, can only have a couple or a few seasons of international rugby left). Next year's world cup will be yet another disappointment

TJ probably still hasn't cleaned his undercrackers after Scotland's win on a shitty wet cold day in Murrayfield over a second string South African side. But their annihilation by NZ showed their fragility and was frankly, embarrassing.

England...disappointing against SA. I agree with you that they have most potential.

Wales...I have nothing to add over the criticism that you guys have levelled at them, but they ain't nowhere near as good as you guys think. But, that's nothing new from Welsh fans. Their eternal optimism is a credit to the nation

France
Ireland
Scotland
England
Wales
Italy

😆

I suspect you might have to drop Ireland a few spots. France and England to battle out for 1st/2nd.

Oh Oh saucer of cream for DD please

Same SA team that gave England, Ireland and Wales a lesson 🙂

no genuinely hard forwards anymore.

Wales have more genuinely hard forwards now than they ever have certainly in my living memory. Bradley Davis, Gethin Jenkins and Sam Warbaton are a match for anyone when it comes to physicality. The front five has played exceptionaly well in the autumn games, standing toe to toe with all comers. The SA pack blew England off the park yet got little change from Wales. Wales front five stood up to New Zealand well and demolished the australian pack. Forwards aint the problem, physicality aint the problem. However without Shane a player outside Jones with a brain is the problem.

Oh Oh saucer of cream for DD please

Reality pill for TJ 😉

What's it gonna be TeeJ? The red one or the blue one?

Funny really, I used to support any NH side against a SH team (and wales particularly) before I learnt thier attitudes on this forum.

Scotland bossed the springboks pack, springboks bossed the english pack. The Scotland pack is a great unit. More than the sum of its parts.

Unfortunately this logic doesnt fly does it, for example, australia beat the all blacks in hong kong 8 weeks ago, and we beat australia, so are we better than the all blacks? No because the AB's beat us. So as usual your nursey logic is fatally flawed. Like backhander says, see you in March.

darcey where have I said wales are worldbeaters? They are at there normal level behind The tri-nations, France, England and Ireland, but still capable of beating the last 3 on a good day. Could have beaten australia and SA with a bit more composure and gave the All-Blacks a game, I'm happy with that.

AWJ lacks physical prescence and hasn't developed his game to the point where he can be called world class.

true he's not world class but he can compete against the very best and hold his head above water

Scotland cant be that good they had Nikki Walker on the wing and he's beyond shit.

France lost 59-16 to Australia, anyone see it?

OUCH!
Whats gone wrong at france then? reckon they got the aussie backlash?

Even at half pace with a very biased ref Wales still managed to get well beaten.Other than pride and a ref on there side they look like worrying no one in the future.Even with sonme of the most blattant off the ball dealing to Richie they still couldnt contain the best football player of him generation,and the rest is sour grapes

I think we've learned this Autumn that the only team capable of playing to the ABs level is Australia.

The Aussies ran in 49 unanswered points in the last 30 mins against a French side who had dominated up front in the first half - earning one penalty try and one yellow card at scrum time.

I don't subscribe to this theory of Scotland having a world beating pack. They're improved, for sure, but where were they against the ABs? (or Samoa).

SA can out muscle most sides apart from the ones with enough guile to negate their power.

France are still the flakiest yet are the only other side who could defeat the ABs (on their day).

England have the best RWC chance of the home nations IMHO but they're still too stilted in their approach to be real contenders although in the knockout environment of the latter stages of the RWC one-dimensional obduracy can get you far.

Coasting - Member
Even at half pace with a very biased ref Wales still managed to get well beaten.Other than pride and a ref on there side they look like worrying no one in the future.Even with sonme of the most blattant off the ball dealing to Richie they still couldnt contain the best football player of him generation,and [b]the rest is sour grapes[/b]

Maybe you should look up the meaning of 'sour grapes' because there aren't any that I can see in this discussion?

As far as [i]off the ball dealing to Richie[/i], that's not part of rugby anymore, but NZ aren't exactly innocent in that respect are they?

one-dimensional obduracy can get you far.

toys19 - Member

one-dimensional obduracy can get you far.
dunno what you mean we got the final and won the 2003 WC using one-dimensional obduracy.

That's what namastebuzz meant isn't it? A backhanded compliment?

That's what namastebuzz meant isn't it? A backhanded compliment?

Yeah maybe. I wasn't being disagreeable, I was trying to be funny..

Do you remember some Aussie Newspaper had an online poll during the 2003 WC about england something like:

boring and dull performance

or scintillating and brilliant.

At first the results were boring and dull but when the power of email spread it round the UK we bombed them with scintillating and brilliant.
Oh how I laughed.

Aah, trying to be funny!

I'm too cold to spot humour, sarcasm, or irony today...

Don't worry I'm too miserable to be funny despite trying...

A random-ish question:

Why do penalty tries always result in a kick from in front of the posts as opposed to where the penalty took place?

IdleJon - Member
A random-ish question:

Why do penalty tries always result in a kick from in front of the posts as opposed to where the penalty took place?

Much the same as in [s]Wendyball [/s]football..

Even with sonme of the most blattant off the ball dealing to Richie

As opposed to Kaino punching Byrne or Whitelock holding Phillips in a head lock whilst Thorne came into his face with his elbow (did you see the BBC half time coverage?) or Thornes high tackle on Hook? MCaw got a good shoeing early on from gethin jenkins as he lay on the wrong side of a maul, All-Blacks invesnted that sort of thing, I didnt see much else off the ball for him especially. Mongo's high hit should have been a yellow but seeing how the ref bottled a yeloow for Thornes hit on Hook in the first half he seemed to ignore it.

Any team that has Mealamu in the team so soon following his flying head butt on a prone player should probabaly avoid throwing stones about foul play.

Mongos high hit should have been a red. Another reason not to select him. He should get a citing and a ban IMO.

not sure it should have been a red in terms of what seems to go these days but agree in principle, saying that though thorne's on hook in the first half would have had to be a yellow. Thorne should be cited for his elbow into the face of Phillips too, but he wont, never mind. Citing system is a farce anyway Mealamu's two weeks is a ****in disgrace.

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Come on arguing about what about this and that is pointless, Mongo will get cited but having an enforcer or a bit of biff is needed in the game. Don't want head butting, gouging or biting but if 2 forwards want to go at it so be it.

Mike Phillips can dish it and can take it as well.

Come on Backhander you hunk of burning love you know how it works 🙂

doubt he'll be cited tbh, ref saw it and didnt seem to care, isnt the citing route only open to incidents the officials miss or is that not right?

Yeah, I do pigface and have no problem with handbags or a bit of skullduggery but that high tackle was dangerous and had intent IMO. I dislike high tackles no matter what, the saffas are the worst for it. Thornes elbow was a bit girly and he was never really going to hurt spikey with that one. Also looks like byrne got a slap for elbowing Kaino in the face on the way down. Go back and look at mongos tackle, there's no excuse for that IMO.

havent said there is an excuse but I fail to see how its much worse than Thornes on Hook in the first half, and then those gifs just point out to the precious Kiwi coasting that the all blacks are no angels either.

I don't remember the thorn/hook interface, sorry. There are no angels in rugby and it is a part of the game but a little argy bargy is one thing, felling someone by the neck is quite another IMO. I wouldn't want to be in powells boots for the next AB game, they don't forget.

I don't remember the thorn/hook interface, sorry.

I dont know about the revenge thing in pro era rugby Mcrae didnt get a beating when Gloucester played O'Garas mob in the Heineken a few years ago and if anything warranted revenge that attack did.

Go back and look at the possibly career or life ending spear tackle performed by the sainted New Zealand captain and the "decent player" who is their hooker, there's no excuse for that IMO.

One high tackle, it happens. One potentially lethal spear tackle. Much less of an acceptable "mistake", IMO.

One high tackle, it happens. One potentially lethal spear tackle. Much less of an acceptable "mistake", IMO.

and one headbutt to a prone player

One high tackle, it happens. One potentially lethal spear tackle. Much less of an acceptable "mistake", IMO.

but you can still be outraged by the one you did?

I disagree and see them as bad as each other.

Then you are wrong. A high tackle [i]can be[/i] a spur of the moment accidental act. A two man spear tackle driving a man in to the ground by his head cannot.

Then you are wrong.

Indeed, it is.
Still wrong though! 😉

(that's what I love about rugby! One can argue happily until blue in the face, but it's never full of that horrid vitriol of another popular sport...)

Yes indeed. BTW, I'm interested in reading about the history of the british lions (proper history and funny stories, legends ets). Can anyone recommend me a book please?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/History-British-Irish-Lions-Mainstream/dp/1840184981

Clem Thomas - Great rugby writer.

Cheers flashy.
Think I might get this one too http://www.amazon.co.uk/Once-Were-Lions-Players-Stories/dp/0007241526/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1291060918&sr=1-1

Not read that one, would be interested to hear what it's like!

Make sure you also check out lots of footage from '74! Legendary tour!

Anyway, back to good old Premiership rugby now.......

😀

All this talk of high tackles, punches and citings - tssssk!

It's a man's game.

I bet if we'd had multiple angle video replays of everything that went on in the '74 Lions tour then most of the players would've been banned.

Whilst modern TV coverage gives us fantastic views of all the goings on it also picks up all the previously unseen indiscretions.

I'm not in favour of dirty play and cheap shots but I think too many players get penalised for high tackles when they're either round the shoulders or the tackler ducks into it. I also dislike the penalties where the tackler gets done for not using his arms even when he's tried to wrap up the man but the hit with the shoulder was so good that the guy has bounced off before being wrapped up.

With you on that Scamper.
C'mon you Saints!

Guscott 😆

My World XV would look something like this:

15. Kurtley Beale 14. Chris Ashton 13. Conrad Smith 12. Sonny Bill Williams 11. Hosea Gear 10. Dan Carter 9. Ben Youngs 8. Kieran Read 7. Richie McCaw 6. Jerome Kaino 5. Victor Matfield 4. Courtney Lawes 3. Dan Cole 2. Bismarck du Plessis 1. Andrew Sheridan.

Must be room for one or two of the scots forwards in there. Better than the SA lot anyway 😉

Lawes might become worthy of a world 15 place but not yet. Ritchie Grey is the same. He was immense against SA but he is still young and learning