[Closed] AutoExpress: - winter tyres ftw

so why don't the big tyre sellers offer them as standard?

The big tyre sellers? Like kwik fit? Well, I think VW specced the ones on my car....

Or do you mean that kwik fit should offer winters as a normal option and then only go for summers if you ask specifically (so the reverse of what currently happens)? If so, I'd say because that's not what the market place is asking for, which is not the same as the market place being correct.

*playing devils advocate btw*

well maybe its something to do with living in the SW but if you ask about winter tyres round here you get funny looks.

you not think its something to do with the "big tire shops" being like tesco - you think the woman in tesco knows what potato is best for your soup ?

train monkeys - they can fit tires - but they are still monkeys.

given the majority of people will buy the cheapest tyres possible at the last possible moment, i think you are pissing in the wind.

Didn't they say the same last year and the year before?

I bet the Kwik-Fit monkies can spell tyre though.

remould winters FTW *

* note mostly off road and slow commuting in terrible weather.

americanisms - the joy of working for and with americans !

What about other factors such as longevity and economy?

Whatever you do do not get them fitted by Kenway in Aberdeen..

What about other factors such as longevity and economy?

my tires generally perish before i wear them out....

Basically, in their winter tyre test they say the best winter tyres perform pretty similarly to summer tyres in the usual dry and wet weather conditions yet obliterate them on snow.

What was weather like? What temperature was road surface? Under 7* degrees?

What about if you lift that temperature to 20*?

I don't see the point of comparing it really, its like comparing apple with potatoes.

I wouldn't use winter tyres in summer, its not my cup of tea.

toys19...the ongoing saga of winter tyres for your vehicle.....what happened?

"What was weather like? What temperature was road surface? Under 7* degrees?

What about if you lift that temperature to 20*?

I don't see the point of comparing it really, its like comparing apple with potatoes.

I wouldn't use winter tyres in summer, its not my cup of tea. "

i LOVE that justification its just great - except that we get how many times more the number of under 7 degree mornings than we do + 20 degree mornings ?

unless you live in the tropical southwest where it seems more of a tradition to moan to the bbc news cameras about inadaquate gritting of roads than it is to prepare your car for the conditions.

Make me laugh that some people on here are more than happy to run season specific tyres on their bikes yet wouldn't consider fitting them on their car where it 'could' make the difference between getting somewhere or not getting there (or worse).

OEM tyres types and sizes on many cars are dictated by the tyre manufacturers as they offer certain tyres at hugely discounted prices.

The trend for large diameter wheels and low profile tyres is a good example of this. Great on a race track but horrible on the road as they ruin the ride of most cars. Despite this they are fitted as standard due to big discounts to the car makers (and they just happen to cost a fortune to replace once worn out).

Why would tyre manufacturers want to offer good deals on OEM Winter tyres when they can sell a discounted set of Summer tyres and then a retail set of Winter tyres as now?

if you ask about winter tyres round here you get funny looks.

I bought 4 new "summer" tyres on Saturday. The garage owner said: "The concept of all-condition compound tyres, which contain a lot more natural rubber, is fairly new in these parts, so I don't stock them. I have one winter/snow tyre that would fit your wheels, but it's horribly squirmy on tarmac due to all the extra sipes in the blocks and it's much worse at dispersing standing water so far from ideal in the normal winter conditions we get."

If only there were a type of tyre suitable for usage in every season. You could call them 'all-seasons' perhaps and leave them on the car year round.

popstar - Member

What was weather like? What temperature was road surface? Under 7* degrees?

What about if you lift that temperature to 20*?

Under such perfect conditions tyre performance is far less important than under bad ones.

So "when shall I put my winter tyres back on" thats the only relevant question at the moment.
I forecast snow in the North [Scotlandshire excluded] on Tuesday 3rd December.

well tbh - i put my winter spikes on the commuter last tuesday night after 3 hard frosts in a row - the temperature has since risen to a pretty consistently balm 7 degrees. If the jeep gets its mot on monday i suspect we wont get snow this year .... if it fails MOT - then we will probably be under 5 foot by wednesday next week.

I've been running Kleber Quadraxer's on mine for over a year now, they're more all-season than winter specific but have sipes etc. They're supposed to be crap in the wet but can't say I've noticed and in the dry they've been fine to, maybe if I took roundabouts at 60mph I might notice them breaking away sooner but that's not something I do these days. Last winter was mostly wet rather than snowy/icy so didn't really get to test them in 'normal' winter conditions but I think the advice it's better to use winter tyres all year round rather than summer ones makes sense for most of the UK.

Possibly a dumb question...

I've just taken a look at blackcircles.com & the winter tyres on there (for my car) have worse wet weather performance ratings than many of the regular tyres - I thought that the extra sipes & all that were meant to provide better wet grip from the winter ones? Or is it that the standard tests aren't done in conditions where the winter tyres can perform better?

Man, Scotlandshire and the likes no doubt need mild winter tyres. Urban Highlanders might want winter tyres for sure. Southerners ... I mean, £800 for 3 days of snow?

I've driven real winter tyres at higher temperatures, and difference winter vs summer tyre was like night and day. Granted summer tyres get a little harder when temperatures drop to 10* or lower, but I don't notice dramatic screaching or wallowy braking and handling like winter tyres do in summer.

Opinion from southerner.

trail rat- me too, winter tyres on thursday.
Disappointed with ABZ performance on the snow front..

I've just taken a look at blackcircles.com & the winter tyres on there (for my car) have worse wet weather performance ratings than many of the regular tyres - I thought that the extra sipes & all that were meant to provide better wet grip from the winter ones? Or is it that the standard tests aren't done in conditions where the winter tyres can perform better?

Snap. I'm confused too.

What do ze Chermans say about this, they're normally pretty good at testing this kind of stuff?

and ive driven real summer tires in the winter when there is ice on the road - and the difference is like being able to corner and ending up in the hedge even at slow speeds.

winter tires in summer = just slow down slightly.

molgrips must be doing some work this morning, I've set the countdown running...

its still early toys.

november 26th the snow hit in 2010 - didnt leave again till march.

last year it was start of december before it hit our house , and it was january before it was bad - 4/5ft drifts on the farm track.

popstar - Member

I mean, £800 for 3 days of snow?

AAAAARGH. They're not just for snow. They're better all the time in low temperatures. As for price, it's only an extra cost if you don't usually have tyres on your car and drive around on the rims. (oh and mine last touched snow near Chester which last time I looked is not in Scotlandshire)

Your final comment- try some winter tyres that aren't rubbish.

Nah I got bollocked for being in late so have refrained from STW..

Re longevity, most winter tyres are silica compound which makes them last really well. You will get many many winters from a set. And whilst they are slightly more squirmy, particularly when warm, they grip like hell.

Re fuel economy, Nokian WR G2 were amazing, probably 10% more than the Dunlop Sport they replaced. Maybe even slightly better than the Nokian summers I have.

Nokian always get great writeups, especially for winters, but they are really hard to find here and the no-one stocks them.

I guess you need to specify your geographical location before wielding your stick of righteousness on others.

I agree low profile summer tyres wont do good in minus degrees temperature, but suggesting to run winter tyres in summer is daft.

Just watch F1 race, a drop or raise of 5C of road surface makes big difference to perfomance of certain cars. No one recommends them running Rain tyres?

Granted general mass tyres aren't that extreme, but compound of season tyres is made to certain bracket of temperature.

I don't even bother trying to tell people how good winter rubber is anymore, some people are just not educated on the subject and too thick to understand when explained.

4 patches of rubber touch the road.. Why would you not want to increase traction and lateral grip?

popstar - Member

I agree low profile summer tyres wont do good in minus degrees temperature, but suggesting to run winter tyres in summer is daft.

Better tell Continental, they must not know much about tyres 😉

your in the south coast of france or spain then yeah winter tires are silly im sure.

I forecast snow in the North [Scotlandshire excluded] on Tuesday 3rd December.

Well there have already been people skiing in Weardale so you're a bit behind the curve on that. It always snows somewhere in country Durham on RAC Rally weekend.

My question is - what's better a M+S tyre with 4mm of tread or a summer tyre with 7...

molgrips - Member

Nah I got bollocked for being in late so have refrained from STW..

I see no real benefit in winter tyres for me. Our car does perhaps a couple of hundred miles a month. If its really icy / snowy I wont use it.
Not that it happens often in the arctic south.

oh we have snow at teh ski centres - ask scotroutes - just not on the coast.

So winter tyres grip better, last longer and give better mpg. All of this is achieved with little or no loss on warm weather performance.

Why aren't all tyres winter the then?
Market then as environmental the for the mpg benefits
Market them as economy the for their long life
Market them as performance tyres for their handling

So selling the crap the that everyone uses today.

Have I missed something?

They're better suited to dry or icy conditions, but not wet ones?

yeah huge numbers of users of summer tires ending up in ditches over summer when driving on the rivet as apparently they are squirmy.

i cant feel any squirm in my tires for the foot of suspension squirming and my wingmirror touching the floor first.

I'm confident that popstar knows better than Autoexpress.

So I've just taken off the perfectly good winter tyres that have been on for 2 years and 30k miles and fitted some summer tyres instead.

I don't like listening to professional opinions where these things are concerned.

'missing something'. you, me and most of denmark it seems. I've been back and forth there a few times this year and it was noticeable how many cars are now wearing steel wheels when i was there recently. they're still changing back and forth and running two sets of wheels. if these winter tyres 'are' better all around, why are they still swapping? convention?
mind the place does seem to be permanently wet, when it's not icy...

"if these winter tyres 'are' better all around, why are they still swapping? convention?"

because they are smart enough to see the merit in changing them - i bet those that dont change for what ever reason are on winters though.

Have I missed something?

Yes. They wear out much more quickly in summer. If you ran them all year you might get I dunno 20k miles from a set. If you run summer and winter silica tyres you could easily get 50k miles from each set. That could be 10 years of motoring without needing to buy tyres.

Market then as environmental the for the mpg benefits
Market them as economy the for their long life

With different tread, they are. Silica gives better cold weather performance, which is why it is used in winter tyres, but it is more durable and gives lower RR too. Change the tread pattern and you have super long lasting and economical summer tyres too.

For 1 set, all year, Winter or all season

If you are happy to swap, summer then winter.

The drop in performance of a summer tyre in winter is more marked than a winter tyre in summer.

I mean, £800 for 3 days of snow

Yeah but the 3 days of snow (if that in the south east) are the justification for all these muppets buying ridiculous 4x4s no?

Del - Member

if these winter tyres 'are' better all around, why are they still swapping?

Nobody says winter tyres are better all year round 😕

Nobody says winter tyres are better all year round

see OP...

Basically, in their winter tyre test they say the best winter tyres perform pretty similarly to summer tyres in the usual dry and wet weather conditions yet obliterate them on snow. So it concluded winter tyres for all year is a no brainer.

popstar - Member

Man, Scotlandshire and the likes no doubt need mild winter tyres. Urban Highlanders might want winter tyres for sure. Southerners ... I mean, £800 for 3 days of snow?

I live in a village [southern dales] where getting out can be a problem most winters. As for £800 well I spent £120 a pop on Michelin Agilis Alpine and they work well in all conditions all though I do swap to summer tyres simply because I have a spare set of wheels and tyres.

If anyone is in doubt as to effectiveness of winter tyres watch the video.

my tires generally perish before i wear them out....

...You're doing it wrong

😀

Basically, in their winter tyre test they say the best winter tyres perform pretty similarly to summer tyres in the usual dry and wet weather conditions yet obliterate them on snow. So it concluded winter tyres for all year is a no brainer.

But (again) if you go to the [url= http://www.continental-tyres.co.uk/www/tyres_uk_en/themes/tyrelabel/viewer.html ]Continental EU Performance Label checker[/url] their winter tyres seem to perform worse on both wet grip and durability than their summer tyres. Whassup widdat?

jam bo, that doesn't say winters are better all year round.

My question is - what's better a M+S tyre with 4mm of tread or a summer tyre with 7...

Be careful there, M+S tyres are NOT winter tyres. They are at best all-season/mixed tyres. Nothing wrong with that, but they are not specifically designed for winter conditions.

Winter tyres (or M+S) tyres are a compromise for summer driving- perhaps you'll not notice it on your vehicle or your driving style.. but that doesn't make it any less true. I do agree some people could be better off running winters all year, although depending on how hot it is for how long they could be a bit disappointed with the longevity.

Winter tyre threads FTW

But (again) if you go to the Continental EU Performance Label checker their winter tyres seem to perform worse on both wet grip and durability than their summer tyres. Whassup widdat?

Because the EU test is done at something like 18 degrees, NOT below 7 where winter tyres come in to their own!

I have a set of 16" BMW alloys for sale* if anyone wants a set to fit their winter tyres as a spare set.

I have gone for wire wheels, high profile tyres and inner tubes instead.

*That is actually true so email if you want them.

ill be fitting all season/winters to mine when I next change, not worth changing just for the winter, it cost too much so I'll just drive slower.

I run Winters all year round on the Van, and have done for years, as I haven't got a spare set of wheels.
The slight trade off in steering precision and sharpness in the summer over summer tyres is acceptable against being stuck on our estate for 3 weeks if it snows 😀

I run Winters all year round on the Van, and have done for years, as I haven't got a spare set of wheels.
The slight trade off in steering precision and sharpness in the summer over summer tyres is acceptable against being stuck on our estate for 3 weeks if it snows 😀

If I don't get to work I don't get paid, winter tyres are cheaper than not working.

I have a spare set of wheels for the BMW and the new Conti Winters are on there way to me now.

Buy new tyres (Circa £650) run them for probably 2- 3 winters, and then sell them with 4mm tread on for £200 s/h 😀

They are just so much nicer to drive on than summer tyres through winter.

Last year, our estate was sheet ice and compacted snow for about 3 weeks, there were a lot of people that could not get off their drives let alone off the estate..... crazy !!

we ran all vehicles on winters and never had a problem at any point

Be careful there, M+S tyres are NOT winter tyres.

Not sure that's true.

M&S seems to be a fairly non-specific manufacturer designation that indicates they're designed for mud and snow. I suppose that doesn't mean that M&S are the best winter tyres, but I would not say that M&S is different to 'winter' tyres. There will be an almost complete overlap between those two designations I think.

I'll be switching mine over next week on both cars. Studded on the big car, normal winter tread on the small one.

Some definitions from the Swedish transport agency:
A definition of winter tyres
Winter tyres can be studded or non-studded so called friction tyres. The tyres must be

•especially manufactured for winter road conditions and
•marked with M+S, M-S, M.S., M&S, MS or Mud and Snow.
Note: There are occurrences with tyres marked with M and S that are not especially manufactured for winter road conditions, but for terrain driving.

Summer tyres have a mixture of rubber that makes them too hard during cold weather. That’s why you should use winter tyres when the temperature is around the freezing point and below.

The best tyres at the back
The tyres with the best pattern depth or the tyres that has the best grip on the road should be mounted at the back on the vehicle to decrease the risk of sliding when breaking or taking turns. The tyres with the highest studs should be mounted at the back. This goes for both front wheel and back wheel steered cars.

Winter tyres ride more smoothly than summer tyres, being made of a softer rubber.

And it's generally quite a bit thicker.

I mean, £800 for 3 days of snow

Not ALL winer tyres are worse in the wet. Have a look here at these reviews http://www.tyres-pneus-online.co.uk/tyres-full-tests.html

The Swedish Chef - Member

The best tyres at the back
The tyres with the best pattern depth or the tyres that has the best grip on the road should be mounted at the back on the vehicle to decrease the risk of sliding when breaking or taking turns. The tyres with the highest studs should be mounted at the back. This goes for both front wheel and back wheel steered cars.

Tosh

If I lived any further south and east I'd be in Calais.

I made the switch to winter tyres last year. Same rims just a set of ultra grip 8s. Very noticeable improvement in the wet, in the cold and in the cold and wet (from about 12 and lower). I only noticed they were a bit more squirmy in the high teens.

And of course in the snow I could stop, start and change direction a lot easier. Great move for a RWD car - my only regret is not doing it sooner.

Its cost no extra as the wear on the summer tyres is reduced (swap over costs nothing). It's a safety thing pure and simple. I'm a convert.

I'm a rubber fetishist anyway, my car tyres get changed at 3mm and I have winter and summer tyres on my bikes too.

Dales_rider - Member
Tosh

He's right, you're wrong.

I can't be bothered to find links again so I'll refer you to my previous post on the matter:

http://www.michelin.co.uk/tyres/learn-share/care-guide/ten-tyre-care-tips
http://www.klebertyres.co.uk/KleberUK/front/index.jsp?codeRubrique=8032005184616
http://www.goodyear.eu/uk_en/tire-advice/faq/tire-maintenance.jsp
http://www.bfgoodrichtires.com/help.page#rotate
http://www.firestonecompleteautocare.com/cf/tires/buying-new-tires-tire-mounting-tips

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/ford-main-dealer-fitted-mismatched-front-tyres-should-i-complain/page/2#post-5248018

4 patches of rubber touch the road.. Why would you not want to increase traction and lateral grip?

It was that kind of scaremongering and salesman hand wringing that led me to buying Uniroyal Rain Experts in that biblicaly wet Summer a few years ago. They almost had me in the crash barriers on a dry shellgripped* corner!

Seeing as I'm more likely to remember to drive like a nun in the wet/snow/ice than on a sunny warm day (I wasnt going fast at the incident, well under ant speedlimit or visibility based measure of too fast anyway) then I'm sticking with normal tyres.

Confirmational bias, sales patter, scaremongering and probably a slight benefit under some conditions, the frequency of which are open to debate.

*thats what its called, the beige topping they put on junctions?

It was that kind of scaremongering and salesman hand wringing that led me to buying Uniroyal Rain Experts in that biblicaly wet Summer a few years ago. They almost had me in the crash barriers on a dry shellgripped* corner!

Are Uniroyal Rain Experts winter tyres?

retro83 - Member

Dales_rider - Member
Tosh

He's right, you're wrong.

I can't be bothered to find links again so I'll refer you to my previous post on the matter:

] http://www.michelin.co.uk/tyres/learn-share/care-guide/ten-tyre-care-tips

http://www.klebertyres.co.uk/KleberUK/front/index.jsp?codeRubrique=8032005184616
http://www.goodyear.eu/uk_en/tire-advice/faq/tire-maintenance.jsp
http://www.bfgoodrichtires.com/help.page#rotate
http://www.firestonecompleteautocare.com/cf/tires/buying-new-tires-tire-mounting-tips

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/ford-main-dealer-fitted-mismatched-front-tyres-should-i-complain/page/2#post-5248018

Repeat yourself and quoting tyre manufacturers doesnt make it right, science please.

I am not sure about the best tyres on back thing either.

Surely if you have a car that's prone to understeer, putting the best tyres on the back would make it worse? I'd say it depends on the particular car.

But you can generally prevent an understeer by just backing off a bit, when you hit the brakes on a bend and the back tries to overtake the front theres not much of an option other than to stop braking, and you might not have that option.

sweepy - Member
when you hit the brakes on a bend and the back tries to overtake the front theres not much of an option other than to stop braking, and you might not have that option.

Thats bad driving and would happen even if you had tyres with say 8mm tread on the back and 4 mm on the front.

Facts
The more rubber you put on the road the more you stick
Tread isnt important till you get up to aquaplaning speeds
Front wheel drive cars and Rear wheel drive cars [not steer Retro83] have compensation valves in the brake line to prevent rear wheel lock up under apparent weight shift during braking.

The only time more tread on the back would make an 'appeth of difference is at speeds in excess of 55 MPH assuming average tyre pressure of 30 psi.
A poor tread [less], or maybe a different tyre type or even different tyres on the rear axle would could cause the rear to aquaplane with traction still on the front of the car.
This is the only issue with tyre fitting IMHO.

Dales_rider - Member

Repeat yourself and quoting tyre manufacturers doesnt make it right, science please.

Sorry, I don't know about the science. What I do know is the every single tyre manufacturer I could find, plus the AA, RAC, the Police etc ALL recommend that new tyres go on the rear axle. And I'm willing to take their recommendation over yours, since I don't know who you are, what the source of your data is etc.

BTW I don't know what this means:

'Front wheel drive cars and Rear wheel drive cars [not steer Retro83]'

Dales_rider, I assume he was talking about snow, in which case you don't have to be pushing hard to get all slidey.

retro83 - Member

??
I didn't say anything about rear steering.

Sorry meant to say swedish chef fella

And I never said I was a good driver! The guidelines aren't for driving gods, they're for everyday nobs like me who go round a bend too fast for the sheep they didn't know was there and hit the brakes 🙂
And yes, I meant snow.