"if these winter tyres 'are' better all around, why are they still swapping? convention?"
because they are smart enough to see the merit in changing them - i bet those that dont change for what ever reason are on winters though.
Have I missed something?
Yes. They wear out much more quickly in summer. If you ran them all year you might get I dunno 20k miles from a set. If you run summer and winter silica tyres you could easily get 50k miles from each set. That could be 10 years of motoring without needing to buy tyres.
Market then as environmental the for the mpg benefits
Market them as economy the for their long life
With different tread, they are. Silica gives better cold weather performance, which is why it is used in winter tyres, but it is more durable and gives lower RR too. Change the tread pattern and you have super long lasting and economical summer tyres too.
For 1 set, all year, Winter or all season
If you are happy to swap, summer then winter.
The drop in performance of a summer tyre in winter is more marked than a winter tyre in summer.
I mean, £800 for 3 days of snow
Yeah but the 3 days of snow (if that in the south east) are the justification for all these muppets buying ridiculous 4x4s no?
Del - Memberif these winter tyres 'are' better all around, why are they still swapping?
Nobody says winter tyres are better all year round 😕
Nobody says winter tyres are better all year round
see OP...
Basically, in their winter tyre test they say the best winter tyres perform pretty similarly to summer tyres in the usual dry and wet weather conditions yet obliterate them on snow. So it concluded winter tyres for all year is a no brainer.
popstar - MemberMan, Scotlandshire and the likes no doubt need mild winter tyres. Urban Highlanders might want winter tyres for sure. Southerners ... I mean, £800 for 3 days of snow?
I live in a village [southern dales] where getting out can be a problem most winters. As for £800 well I spent £120 a pop on Michelin Agilis Alpine and they work well in all conditions all though I do swap to summer tyres simply because I have a spare set of wheels and tyres.
If anyone is in doubt as to effectiveness of winter tyres watch the video.
my tires generally perish before i wear them out....
...You're doing it wrong
😀
Basically, in their winter tyre test they say the best winter tyres perform pretty similarly to summer tyres in the usual dry and wet weather conditions yet obliterate them on snow. So it concluded winter tyres for all year is a no brainer.
But (again) if you go to the [url= http://www.continental-tyres.co.uk/www/tyres_uk_en/themes/tyrelabel/viewer.html ]Continental EU Performance Label checker[/url] their winter tyres seem to perform worse on both wet grip and durability than their summer tyres. Whassup widdat?
jam bo, that doesn't say winters are better all year round.
My question is - what's better a M+S tyre with 4mm of tread or a summer tyre with 7...
Be careful there, M+S tyres are NOT winter tyres. They are at best all-season/mixed tyres. Nothing wrong with that, but they are not specifically designed for winter conditions.
Winter tyres (or M+S) tyres are a compromise for summer driving- perhaps you'll not notice it on your vehicle or your driving style.. but that doesn't make it any less true. I do agree some people could be better off running winters all year, although depending on how hot it is for how long they could be a bit disappointed with the longevity.
Winter tyre threads FTW
But (again) if you go to the Continental EU Performance Label checker their winter tyres seem to perform worse on both wet grip and durability than their summer tyres. Whassup widdat?
Because the EU test is done at something like 18 degrees, NOT below 7 where winter tyres come in to their own!
I have a set of 16" BMW alloys for sale* if anyone wants a set to fit their winter tyres as a spare set.
I have gone for wire wheels, high profile tyres and inner tubes instead.
*That is actually true so email if you want them.
ill be fitting all season/winters to mine when I next change, not worth changing just for the winter, it cost too much so I'll just drive slower.
I run Winters all year round on the Van, and have done for years, as I haven't got a spare set of wheels.
The slight trade off in steering precision and sharpness in the summer over summer tyres is acceptable against being stuck on our estate for 3 weeks if it snows 😀
I run Winters all year round on the Van, and have done for years, as I haven't got a spare set of wheels.
The slight trade off in steering precision and sharpness in the summer over summer tyres is acceptable against being stuck on our estate for 3 weeks if it snows 😀
If I don't get to work I don't get paid, winter tyres are cheaper than not working.
I have a spare set of wheels for the BMW and the new Conti Winters are on there way to me now.
Buy new tyres (Circa £650) run them for probably 2- 3 winters, and then sell them with 4mm tread on for £200 s/h 😀
They are just so much nicer to drive on than summer tyres through winter.
Last year, our estate was sheet ice and compacted snow for about 3 weeks, there were a lot of people that could not get off their drives let alone off the estate..... crazy !!
we ran all vehicles on winters and never had a problem at any point
Be careful there, M+S tyres are NOT winter tyres.
Not sure that's true.
M&S seems to be a fairly non-specific manufacturer designation that indicates they're designed for mud and snow. I suppose that doesn't mean that M&S are the best winter tyres, but I would not say that M&S is different to 'winter' tyres. There will be an almost complete overlap between those two designations I think.
I'll be switching mine over next week on both cars. Studded on the big car, normal winter tread on the small one.
Some definitions from the Swedish transport agency:
A definition of winter tyres
Winter tyres can be studded or non-studded so called friction tyres. The tyres must be
•especially manufactured for winter road conditions and
•marked with M+S, M-S, M.S., M&S, MS or Mud and Snow.
Note: There are occurrences with tyres marked with M and S that are not especially manufactured for winter road conditions, but for terrain driving.
Summer tyres have a mixture of rubber that makes them too hard during cold weather. That’s why you should use winter tyres when the temperature is around the freezing point and below.
The best tyres at the back
The tyres with the best pattern depth or the tyres that has the best grip on the road should be mounted at the back on the vehicle to decrease the risk of sliding when breaking or taking turns. The tyres with the highest studs should be mounted at the back. This goes for both front wheel and back wheel steered cars.
Winter tyres ride more smoothly than summer tyres, being made of a softer rubber.
And it's generally quite a bit thicker.
I mean, £800 for 3 days of snow
I spent £120 for a set of steel wheels and £272 for 4 Falken Eurowinter 449 tyres.
That's less than I'll lose for two days of not getting to work because of snow. So it can snow for three days and I'll have made it work for me.
Not ALL winer tyres are worse in the wet. Have a look here at these reviews http://www.tyres-pneus-online.co.uk/tyres-full-tests.html
The Swedish Chef - MemberThe best tyres at the back
The tyres with the best pattern depth or the tyres that has the best grip on the road should be mounted at the back on the vehicle to decrease the risk of sliding when breaking or taking turns. The tyres with the highest studs should be mounted at the back. This goes for both front wheel and back wheel steered cars.
Tosh
If I lived any further south and east I'd be in Calais.
I made the switch to winter tyres last year. Same rims just a set of ultra grip 8s. Very noticeable improvement in the wet, in the cold and in the cold and wet (from about 12 and lower). I only noticed they were a bit more squirmy in the high teens.
And of course in the snow I could stop, start and change direction a lot easier. Great move for a RWD car - my only regret is not doing it sooner.
Its cost no extra as the wear on the summer tyres is reduced (swap over costs nothing). It's a safety thing pure and simple. I'm a convert.
I'm a rubber fetishist anyway, my car tyres get changed at 3mm and I have winter and summer tyres on my bikes too.
Dales_rider - Member
Tosh
He's right, you're wrong.
I can't be bothered to find links again so I'll refer you to my previous post on the matter:
http://www.michelin.co.uk/tyres/learn-share/care-guide/ten-tyre-care-tips
http://www.klebertyres.co.uk/KleberUK/front/index.jsp?codeRubrique=8032005184616
http://www.goodyear.eu/uk_en/tire-advice/faq/tire-maintenance.jsp
http://www.bfgoodrichtires.com/help.page#rotate
http://www.firestonecompleteautocare.com/cf/tires/buying-new-tires-tire-mounting-tips
4 patches of rubber touch the road.. Why would you not want to increase traction and lateral grip?
It was that kind of scaremongering and salesman hand wringing that led me to buying Uniroyal Rain Experts in that biblicaly wet Summer a few years ago. They almost had me in the crash barriers on a dry shellgripped* corner!
Seeing as I'm more likely to remember to drive like a nun in the wet/snow/ice than on a sunny warm day (I wasnt going fast at the incident, well under ant speedlimit or visibility based measure of too fast anyway) then I'm sticking with normal tyres.
Confirmational bias, sales patter, scaremongering and probably a slight benefit under some conditions, the frequency of which are open to debate.
*thats what its called, the beige topping they put on junctions?
It was that kind of scaremongering and salesman hand wringing that led me to buying Uniroyal Rain Experts in that biblicaly wet Summer a few years ago. They almost had me in the crash barriers on a dry shellgripped* corner!
Are Uniroyal Rain Experts winter tyres?
retro83 - MemberDales_rider - Member
ToshHe's right, you're wrong.
I can't be bothered to find links again so I'll refer you to my previous post on the matter:
] http://www.michelin.co.uk/tyres/learn-share/care-guide/ten-tyre-care-tips
http://www.klebertyres.co.uk/KleberUK/front/index.jsp?codeRubrique=8032005184616
http://www.goodyear.eu/uk_en/tire-advice/faq/tire-maintenance.jsp
http://www.bfgoodrichtires.com/help.page#rotate
http://www.firestonecompleteautocare.com/cf/tires/buying-new-tires-tire-mounting-tips
Repeat yourself and quoting tyre manufacturers doesnt make it right, science please.
I am not sure about the best tyres on back thing either.
Surely if you have a car that's prone to understeer, putting the best tyres on the back would make it worse? I'd say it depends on the particular car.
But you can generally prevent an understeer by just backing off a bit, when you hit the brakes on a bend and the back tries to overtake the front theres not much of an option other than to stop braking, and you might not have that option.
sweepy - Member
when you hit the brakes on a bend and the back tries to overtake the front theres not much of an option other than to stop braking, and you might not have that option.
Thats bad driving and would happen even if you had tyres with say 8mm tread on the back and 4 mm on the front.
Facts
The more rubber you put on the road the more you stick
Tread isnt important till you get up to aquaplaning speeds
Front wheel drive cars and Rear wheel drive cars [not steer Retro83] have compensation valves in the brake line to prevent rear wheel lock up under apparent weight shift during braking.
The only time more tread on the back would make an 'appeth of difference is at speeds in excess of 55 MPH assuming average tyre pressure of 30 psi.
A poor tread [less], or maybe a different tyre type or even different tyres on the rear axle would could cause the rear to aquaplane with traction still on the front of the car.
This is the only issue with tyre fitting IMHO.
Dales_rider - MemberRepeat yourself and quoting tyre manufacturers doesnt make it right, science please.
Sorry, I don't know about the science. What I do know is the every single tyre manufacturer I could find, plus the AA, RAC, the Police etc ALL recommend that new tyres go on the rear axle. And I'm willing to take their recommendation over yours, since I don't know who you are, what the source of your data is etc.
BTW I don't know what this means:
??'Front wheel drive cars and Rear wheel drive cars [not steer Retro83]'
I didn't say anything about rear steering.
Dales_rider, I assume he was talking about snow, in which case you don't have to be pushing hard to get all slidey.
retro83 - Member??
I didn't say anything about rear steering.
Sorry meant to say swedish chef fella
And I never said I was a good driver! The guidelines aren't for driving gods, they're for everyday nobs like me who go round a bend too fast for the sheep they didn't know was there and hit the brakes 🙂
And yes, I meant snow.
Do a bit of googling there's lot out there contradicting the "Tyre experts"
This video does though prove on thing
It was that kind of scaremongering and salesman hand wringing that led me to buying Uniroyal Rain Experts in that biblicaly wet Summer a few years ago. They almost had me in the crash barriers on a dry shellgripped* corner!
Are Uniroyal Rain Experts winter tyres?
No, they are rubbish tyres in the dry. But do work well in the wet and cold, surpisingly....
molgrips - MemberDales_rider, I assume he was talking about snow, in which case you don't have to be pushing hard to get all slidey.
No but lat winter wifes car was due new tyres on the front and despite me saying "Make sue they put them on the front" she was swayed by the tyre peeps. Needless to say it still wouldnt go many places in the snow.
I swapped them around and instantly had a car which performed well in the snow without the back end stepping out.
My van's back end steps out in the snow so I make allowances even so it has the best tyres on the front and got me back this year from the alps when there was snow all the way from mountain to the dutch coast.
Fitted 4 X Dunlop 4D's to the car two weekends ago in anticipation of it getting a bit chilly/white etc.
So far have had one night when i thought "i'm glad they are on". Black ice at a non gritted junction. Things went a bit light but i got round the corner having arrived quicker than was sensible.
I stay outside Glasgow about 400ft ASL and it's frequently snowy here when Glasgow is clear. Now my car is a quattro so i would no doubt get up most hills on summer tyres but stopping going down them ?
You would not run Maxxis Aspens in mud would you ? Makes total sense to me to run winter tyres if you can afford them (£125 each for 225/50/17's from Camskill).
'missing something'. you, me and most of denmark it seems. I've been back and forth there a few times this year and it was noticeable how many cars are now wearing steel wheels when i was there recently. they're still changing back and forth and running two sets of wheels. if these winter tyres 'are' better all around, why are they still swapping? convention?
mind the place does seem to be permanently wet, when it's not icy...
This, kinda (writing from Copenhagen). Winter tyres for winter, summer tyres for summer, whatever for spring and autumn, depending on when you get round to changing. Maybe a mindless convention 'cos everyone else is doing it, or, possibly there's a good reason... Winter tyres tend to have a lower speed rating and also wear quicker in warm weather, so an extra cheap set of rims balances out tyre wear. Summer tyres are shocking in snow and we often get two-three months of snow on the ground. Driving ridiculously slow or not going out is not an option for most. I don't know many people that don't swap, and those that don't swap tend to do so 'cos they are cheap.
As to the OPs point, in STW fashion, I forgot what that was?
Ps - we did get some sun this year 🙂
New tyres or deepest tread to the rear
To find out which is now the one for your car, we headed for the [u]sub-zero temperatures[/u] of Nokian’s test centre in Ivalo, close to the Russian border in northern Finland.For the tarmac tests we used Nokian’s proving ground in Tampere, Finland, using a Skoda Octavia. Eight tyres in the highly popular 225/45R17 size – as found on big-selling hatchbacks and family saloons – were put through their paces.
We also used our test-winning summer tyre in this size as a comparison to see the advantage winter rubber has in slippery conditions.
Test was done in sub zero temperatures, winter tyres have different softer compound to perform best at under 7C*.
Summer tyres with their rubber compound start to "live" at over 12C* or so.
It's a no brainer that best summer tyre didn't fare well against winter tyres at sub zero temperatures as rubber went too hard and lost its bite completely.
What makes you think that winter tyres are best to be used all year round, or even make bold statements that winter tyres are better than summer tyres in summer?
Don't shoot the messenger. Just thought it was useful info.popstar - Member
What makes you think that winter tyres are best to be used all year round, or even make bold statements that winter tyres are better than summer tyres in summer?
I am inclined to agree, especially when Continental say:
When should I fit winter tyres to my car?It is recommended that you switch to winter tyres in the UK between October and April.
If you are reluctant to change tyres and have nowhere to store summer tyres when they are not in use, you are better off using winter tyres all year round.
Winter tyres are as quiet and comfortable as summer tyres and, thanks to sophisticated compound technology, do not wear any more quickly.
There is a slight trade off with stopping distances as a winter tyre does not stop as quickly in the dry as a summer tyre, however, on balance if it is not possible to switch tyres in the winter, experts say you are better off with winter tyres all year round. This is because the difference in stopping distances of summer tyres in winter is far greater than for winter tyres in the summer.
http://www.continental-tyres.co.uk/www/tyres_uk_en/themes/car-tyres/winter-tyres/why-winter-tyres/why-winter-tyres.html
popstar - Membereven make bold statements that winter tyres are better than summer tyres in summer?
When?
I run all-season snow flake marked winter tyres on one car, they do two summers and nearly 50k before replacing. They proved themselves when it turned out our car can run rings around 4x4s in compacted snow/ice (after taking to back roads after a 50 minute commute turned into a 8hr slog) and can make it up ice covered tracks. (After patiently waiting for a Pajero and Jeep Cherokee to stop hugging the hedge and mounting a verge on their way down the track)
My van has chunky mud and snow tyres fitted all year round, they are not snow flaked make but I was the only vehicle to have got up a big hill by mid morning last winter. I even provoked some wheelspin and it didn't struggle at all. (Having spent 5 minutes earlier that morning trying to coax/reverse our summer tyred Punto up the hill)
Good tyres on the back always... It clearly makes sense. Safe predictable handling on the commute, or an extra bit of grip to pull away in the snow. Easy choice...
