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The standard measurement is +-3dB for any given frequency as being detectable by the human hear.
I think it less than that - more like 1db:
http://www.dspguide.com/ch22/1.htm
I think it less than that - more like 1db:
Actually, it depends on the frequency, duration and intensity of the sound as well as the auditory context - some sounds can be significantly louder in difference than would normally be noticeable, but due to the sounds around them they are almost completely imperceptible.
It can be as low as 0.3dB - e.g. 1khz @ 80dB SPL but 1Khz at 20dB SPL is as high as 1.5dB.
Sound is one of the areas where Weber's law falls flat on it's arse.
I found that aligning the mains cables with a handy ley line produces a far more rounded and defined auditory experience.
You'll need to hire a druid to install one.
This guy should be available:
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It's quite amusing if you work in telecoms - we have £100k plus measuring kit which is orders of magnitude more sensitive than any audiophile's ear, needs calibration kits which cost £10k + and still runs on a cheapo 99p mains lead.
I love these threads. Why don't you give your spare money to charity instead.
If mains noise is actually an issue, your money would be better spent on a UPS that can provide nice clean inverted DC power completely isolated from the mains feed. And that's a big 'if'.
Trouble is a UPS can't normally supply the current your power amps might want, but cool for other stuff.
We have the largest UPS in Europe at work, pretty sure it could manage...
You don't believe that people are able to differentiate changes in timbre between sounds of identical pitch and loudness?
Given that the timbre of sound could only really reasonably be described as a function of pitch (or more accurately frequency) and loudness (or more accurately amplitude), how can they remain the same and the timbre be different?
Usual old arguments. Engineers vs HiFi users...
At Casa Woppit:
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... plus a separate spur from the mains.
Sounds lovely. 8)
Usual old arguments. Engineers vs HiFi users...
Engineers design this stuff. They usually have some sort of technical understanding of the principles behind it, too.
Hi Fi users don't, either design it, or as is self evident by the existence of some of this complete crap, understand it.
Of course, there are folks quite happy to perpetuate misunderstanding in order to sell stuff.
C'est la vie.
Bokonon, that's not timbre.
Think of two violins playing exactly the same note at exactly the same volume.
They will sound different.
They each have a different timbre.
We have the largest UPS in Europe at work, pretty sure it could manage...
would it fit nicely at home?
Hi Fi users don't, either design it, or as is self evident by the existence of some of this complete crap, understand it.
Yawn.
They do listen to it, however...
(Cue usual spite about snake oil, you only think it sounds different, you're an idiot, James Randi challenges etc etc etc)...
Yawn.They do listen to it, however...
(Cue usual spite about snake oil, you only think it sounds different, you're an idiot, James Randi challenges etc etc etc)...
Isn't it amazing how some people simply
refuse to listen to rational arguments...
Isn't it amazing how some people simply
refuse to listen to rational arguments...
what is the point of that?
Here's one that was made earlier:
Raindog - MemberA friend of mine has about £20k of Naim kit, which sounds very nice. Another friend of his came round one evening with a different mains lead to try. I laughed At first, but the difference was astonishing.
Bokonon, that's not timbre.
Think of two violins playing exactly the same note at exactly the same volume.
They will sound different.
They each have a different timbre.
Given that notes are only very loosely defined, the comparison is meaningless.
The sound is a collection of different frequencies tones at different amplitudes - yes, each violin will have a different collection of these, but they are still just functions of frequency and aomplitude.
P.S. which tuning system is the violin using? you know that 440hz concert A is only for nazi's right? 😉
Late to the discussion....
A colleague of mine if absolutely 100% convinced his upgraded mains cables are the best thing since sliced white.
I also call "snake oil", but would like to verify for myself. This guy is not at all gullible (usually) and was initially sceptical about the idea himself.
He is currently upgrading the cables on all his a/v appliances. So far, he's done his amp, CD, sky box and telly.
He uses these: [url= http://tinyurl.com/abyehka ]Russ Andrews Reference[/url] at £225 each for 1.5m length.
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Russ Andrews is also responsible for [url= http://tinyurl.com/ba28oj9 ]these [/url] at an eye watering £3k for only 1m 😯
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They do listen to it, however...
But not impartially, and that is important.
(Cue usual spite about snake oil, you only think it sounds different, you're an idiot, James Randi challenges etc etc etc)...
Spite? You have the wrong engineer.
I call it "crap" because [i]even if[/i] it all does what it says it does, audiophile kit is extortionately priced for its benefits. e.g. £150 for a Naim power lead that provides star earthing? Could be done for £5. Easily.
You're perfectly at liberty to spend your cash on audiophile products, it's your cash, this is the beauty of living in a free world.
But not impartially, and that is important.
how do you know?
audiophile kit is extortionately priced for its benefits.
Quantify them.
£150 for a Naim power lead that provides star earthing
[i]That's[/i] gone up since I bought it at £80...
I think the prices of these accessories does start to get silly when you could upgrade something much more important for the same price, say, a PSU for instance.
Quantify them.
He did. In the bit you snipped.
Quantify [i]the benefits[/i]...
Similar to Mr Woppit I went down the separate spur and olde style round sockets and plugs. Sounds nice, (Standard Naim cables and amps here).
You want the engineers to find some way of measuring something which isn't apparent on normal measuring equipment, but only in the heads of HiFi users?
Alternatively, as mentioned in the bit you're ignoring, the benefits are exactly the same as you'd get from £5 worth of star earthed mains leads.
the equivalent of :
floating rotors
braided hoses
extra wide bars
tyres with more than one compound in them
etc etc etc
oh hai!
He is currently upgrading the cables on all his a/v appliances. So far, he's done his amp, CD, sky box and telly.
£150 for a power cord for a Sky Box? That is hard-core! I can sort of understand spending £150 if its attached to £2000 CD deck but a cheap and nasty Sky box! It doesn't even operate at full 1080p.
You want the engineers to find some way of measuring something which isn't apparent on normal measuring equipment, but only in the heads of HiFi users?
What about [url= http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/E-Meter/ ]this?[/url]
£150 for a power cord for a Sky Box? That is hard-core! I can sort of understand spending £150 if its attached to £2000 CD deck but a cheap and nasty Sky box! It doesn't even operate at full 1080p
What exactly is he hoping this will improve about the Sky Box?
Sound "quality" ?
Picture "quality" ?
Amount of missed recordings per month ?
You want the engineers to find some way of measuring something which isn't apparent on normal measuring equipment, but only in the [s]heads[/s] ears of HiFi users?
Not particularly.
Alternatively, as mentioned in the bit you're ignoring, the benefits are exactly the same as you'd get from £5 worth of star earthed mains leads.
Interesting point. I daresay that much, if not all, consumer goods are overpriced (mountain bikes, anybody?). You might have a whole new market for yourself, there. If you can produce a hydra lead for a fiver that sounds as good as my £80-worth from Graham's, you've got my vote. There wasn't one available at the time when I wanted to maximise efficient power supply to my system, though.
It'd be interesting to do a blind test of these things.
The guy with the £225 power lead to his Sky box for instance. See if he'd leave you alone in the room with his new cables and a handful of regular mains cables; you hook up his kit with one set at random and he comes back and tries to tell you which is in use by listening to it.
I'll bet dollars to donuts that he can't tell reliably which is which. Which, y'know, is fine and all, I'm sure it's a "subtle" difference. But after spending a grand on kettle leads I'd want my socks blown off.
Incidentally,
What's all this "star earth" business?
EDIT - answered my own question.
http://forums.naimaudio.com/displayForumTopic/content/15364009042958819
Hmm.
What's all this "star earth" business?
You connect every appliance's mains earth, using an individual cable, to a single central point.
As opposed to, e.g. inside a cheap 4-way extension lead, where each appliances mains earth is connected to a metal bar inside the extension lead.
If you can produce a hydra lead for a fiver that sounds as good as my £80-worth from Graham's, you've got my vote.
I tried listening to my mains lead and couldn't hear anything. I suspect my ears may not be up to this.
😆
I'm talking about speaker cables btw.
Never compared mains cables.
Logic tells me that beyond suppressing interference, there can't be any audible difference.
Dunno what my ears tell me because I haven't tried it yet.
I've an idea for a very simple speaker cable test. I'll stick a thread up later.
I tried listening to my mains lead and couldn't hear anything
try licking it
this could be a contender for thread of the year... never heard such poppycock. in recording studios everyone uses kettle leads. we also put signal thru various pieces of outboard gear specifically to "colour" it ie degrade it, add some freq, take some off.
surely the question is what music he is listening to? if its mumford and sons its always going to be pap
this could be a contender for thread of the year... never heard such poppycock. in recording studios everyone uses kettle leads. we also put signal thru various pieces of outboard gear specifically to "colour" it ie degrade it, add some freq, take some off.
surely the question is what music he is listening to? if its mumford and sons its always going to be pap
I want to hear from the £225 cable for the skybox guy, that is truly amazing.
I'm enjoying this thread.
Cards on the table I used to work in a hi-fi shop.
I used to sell this stuff. I worked in a few different shops selling various budgets of kit from the NAD / Rotel end to the Linn / Naim / Meridian end.
The mid price guys generally new the value of kit. So they know they hear and feel the difference when you bi-amp a set of speakers but there is no way you could sell them stuff of dubious benefit.
The high end guys you could pretty much sell anything too. Sometimes I would demo stuff without making any changes and then ask them if they could hear the difference. Most of them could
I'm talking about speaker cables btw.Never compared mains cables.
Logic tells me that beyond suppressing interference, there can't be any audible difference.
Aye. That's pretty much what I said a couple of pages back. Going from crappy bell wire to a heavier gauge cable should make a difference; beyond that, meh. I'll be interested in the results of your experiment.
The high end guys you could pretty much sell anything too. Sometimes I would demo stuff without making any changes and then ask them if they could hear the difference. Most of them could
Can't say as I'm totally shocked.
people can spend their money on whatever they like, and, the beauty of it is they don't even have to justify it, not even to the internet.
but,
What I don't get (genuine ignorance rather than for effect) is what all this audiophilia is trying to achieve? I was once caught on a night ride for a long time attending an injury and got chatting to this new chap. He spent his retirement lump sum on a set of handmade amps, but freely admitted he liked punk and the records he listened too were sometimes recorded on Wollworths standard equipment.
Is the Audiophile trying to perfectly capture the recording, warts and all, or is it an effort to make a system that renders the recordings 'better'?
My cousin is a Sound Engineer, they use the same speakers all over the world in recording studios, Yamaha somethings (IIRC) so that wherever you are you always have a reference. The cabling in the studio is just decent shielded industrial stuff to all the kit, I'm sure all the interference is included in the recording isn't it?