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I've been with my current employer 18 years, and lets say, given my position I'm fairly up on HR practices and can give the HR advisers a heck of a tough time if needed.
I've been on the absence thing twice, once due to messed up surgery needing further surgery, so that went on a couple of years, then breaking my spine whilst cycling to work. First time I was quite to the point about why I'd been off and we were trying to sort out the pain from the original procedure - I didn't hold back about the details - this shut them up. Same with my spine. I've had a clear run of 9 years since with next to no sickness, until three weeks ago when I came off on ice, so told my boss to log two days sick (one I was in A&E still doing emails) then the next drugged up at home - again doing emails).
Unfortunately, these letters are rather impersonal. TBH your line manager should have said something before the shitty letter comes out. My line managers were fine with it as they knew why I had been off, but the 'system' flags three instances in 12 months.
If done consistently, and followed through, this should nip the 'piss takers' in the bud. Wouldn't worry about it, and I'd give them a little stick back.
Somewhat perversely, it means you’re better off taking four months off sick than one day in January
similar at a previous employer- a colleague had been struggling for a while with flu/cold- coming in spreading germs because she would have been over a rolling 12 month threshold and didn’t want the grief.
Eventually she had a fortnight off to recover- she said that she could have come back after 3 days but as she was going to get hassle she thought she’d make it worthwhile.
my problem is the overly abrasive wording and lack of compassion from a company that on the other hand talks big on mindfulness and wellbeing. It’s the thing that I’m going to push back on tomorrow
Personally, I wouldn't really give a ****. But if feeling suitably vindictive, beat them at their own game.
Make a formal complaint about the stress and anxiety that this letter has caused you. And be clear that you'll need some time to recover.
I've had similar from an employer that uses the Bradford scores.
My sick was excellent but I'd gone sick with a horrendous cold one winter (working outside so not really able to just man up) for 2 or 3 days and then 'done the right thing' and come back in as soon as I was able to. A couple of weeks later the cough deteriorated into a chest infection and went off for another few days.
The Bradford system weights heavily against repeated short absences (as per the OP) and it triggered an attendance review. If I'd put my feet up for three weeks off work and binged box sets and tinkered around in the garage supping coffee and not worried about 'skiving' I'd have been OK and not triggered a meeting.
I still go back to work promptly but tend to give it an extra day to ensure I'm fully recovered, but if I'm worried about a relapse I'll be staying off next time!
Me “He’s having A LIVER TRANSPLANT. He’ll be in an induced coma for up to three days and he’ll be fit for **** all for three months minimum. Can’t we just do the fit note when he’s out of immediate recuperation/IC?”
He can get one from the GP to cover the recovery period before the op.
Given the size of organisation and circumstances you describe, it is almost certainly an auto-generated email/letter because you've hit one or more of the three(?) Bradford-type triggers.
The actual wording will have been dreamt up by some piss and vinegar HR type (who probably no longer works for the organisation having been paid off - after taking enough sick not to trigger a letter themselves) in a bid to suck up to management.
I can't remember the circumstances, but I've definitely sat in a meeting in my working life where the wording around this kind of policy has been discussed. There was a definite sense of trying to scare people into dragging themselves into work if at all possible. It's just corporate ****tiness.
It's funny. HR are often very willing to beat up the majority of staff who comply 99% of the time. But confront them with a properly difficult and clued-up shirker and the word 'tribunal' makes them shit their pants and go missing.
That's an appalling letter.
HR is there to protect the company, so take someone with you to protect your interests
I'd also be making my feelings known about the complete lack of empathy shown by the company in the face of an excellent work attendance record
I can’t remember the circumstances, but I’ve definitely sat in a meeting in my working life where the wording around this kind of policy has been discussed. There was a definite sense of trying to scare people into dragging themselves into work if at all possible. It’s just corporate ****tiness.
Same here, and that was in the public sector. I'd been off for two weeks with flu and a chest infection, couldn't get out of bed, so I really appreciated being told that my attendance was unacceptable.
Same here, and that was in the public sector. I’d been off for two weeks with flu and a chest infection, couldn’t get out of bed, so I really appreciated being told that my attendance was unacceptable.
Yes. To anyone with a conscience that initial jolt when you read certain wordings is no very nice. I was hospitalised just over 18 months ago with a kidney infection that nearly became sepsis. When I returned to work (public sector) I got a bluntly worded letter about needing to prove this that and the other. My manager was really cool about it, but when I attached said medical letters to my record in accordance with the rules I did draw attention to the actual wording on it that emphasised how serious it was. I bet no one even read it, though.
As I said, I was actually in a meeting years ago in the private sector when the wording of these auto-generated letters was being discussed. The view from the top was very much one of ingrained suspicion of the lower orders and the need to never be seen to be giving an inch. It was depressing, TBH.
He can get one from the GP to cover the recovery period before the op.
The point is - unless you don't believe he's going for a transplant or your think his surgery recovery is exagerated its all a bit stupid. There is no requirement in law to get sicknotes/fit notes. They do serve a valid purpose, but getting GPs to write them to cover a guesstimate of a recovery period after a date of an operation which is as yet unknown is a pointless waste of time. That means its a pointless waste of OUR resources (the ones you and I pay for from our taxes) so that an HR person can say "of course" and stick it in a file. I'd love to see what the Employment Appeal Tribunal said if they fired someone who had a transplant and didn't provide a sick note when they were in ICU!
3 absences in less than 12 months totalling over 10 days, seems fair to me.
I took over a dept in the NHS about 10 years ago, the first person who went sick had a return to work interview with me.
Over the next 12 months or so the sickness rated halved 🙂
3 absences in less than 12 months totalling over 10 days, seems fair to me.
I took over a dept in the NHS about 10 years ago, the first person who went sick had a return to work interview with me.
Over the next 12 months or so the sickness rated halved
Yes - but we're you being reasonable about it?
Genuine question.
The point is – unless you don’t believe he’s going for a transplant or your think his surgery recovery is exagerated its all a bit stupid.
It really isn’t its fair request and allows the absence to be covered. A GP can give an estimate and then can be easily extended or reduced by a phone or e appointment.
HR is there to protect the company
It is, yep. Which is why the letter is at odds with the idea of doing everything to protect a company from fallout; it's unnecessarily aggressive, and as such could be used as evidence of constructive dismissal if it came to a tribunal, for example.
Good HR is a balancing act between employer & employee interests. Trust is vital, both ways.
Just looks like a standard industry letter.
Yes – but we’re you being reasonable about it?
Genuine question.
Yep, I just sat with them and completed the internal sickness form that I'd to do for HR, in their words.
I didn't lean on them or anything, they just knew that if they went sick they'd have to go through the 'process', it didn't stop 'proper' sickness but it definitely reduced the single day-type absences.
Also worth knowing that I took no sickness in the 18 months I was there (and in the last 30 years I've only had 5 days of sickness - from a week off with Covid).
He can get one from the GP to cover the recovery period before the op.
Why should a GP issue the note? S/he is not performing the operation. The surgeon or one of his team can issue a fit note.
Also worth knowing that I took no sickness in the 18 months I was there (and in the last 30 years I’ve only had 5 days of sickness – from a week off with Covid).
Well you are very lucky then. Do you accept that there are people less fortunate who have genuinely had to take more time off than you have had to? Not all absences are ‘sickies’
One of Mrs Pondo's colleagues had her attendance reviewed as she took time off for apendicitus and subsequent septicemea.
Has the meeting finished yet? Are you still employed?
#PrayForRNP
I'm still here, 2xmanagers including my direct (who issued the letter) - felt like a disciplinary, no empathy from my direct. I pushed back on the letter - standard form that the other manager doesn't send out due to its abrasive nature.
I'm fed up with my direct - he's ruined the job since his arrival 3years ago and I'm half looking for a new job anyway. Shit like this just encourages me more.
The Bradford factor is a good tool, for managing managers. When an employee hits a trigger point the manager should be forced to make an assessment and support their decision. In this case the decision should have been no further action assuming previous years were lower bsence levels. It' amazing how many managers won't manage absence properly, either ignore it or want to sack someone for relatively small amounts of time off.
Very badly worded letter from a badly implemented absence management process.
The flip side is there are plenty of employees out there taking the wee wee, by the time you realise an employee needs to go you need to already have the documented evidence or it's a long drawn out process.
similar at a previous employer- a colleague had been struggling for a while with flu/cold- coming in spreading germs because she would have been over a rolling 12 month threshold and didn’t want the grief.
That's the other thing isn't it. Guilt-tripping an employee into coming in when they should be in bed just means more sick days from everyone else.
When I returned to work (public sector) I got a bluntly worded letter about needing to prove this that and the other.
"I was in hospital and the details are none of your concern."
Is it just me who finds this stuff invasive? I understand to a point that there has to be a need to catch trends, like someone having a suspicious "migraine" every Monday morning. But you shouldn't be guilted into providing an encyclopaedic list of symptoms to justify your absence, you can be off with a cold without it having to be a "bad cold" (like there's a good kind). We're not at school anymore trying to be excused from PE.
You're all amateurs. One of my colleagues has 470 sick days in the last 3 years. Been taking the piss for 20 years and HR can't / won't get rid of him.
Also worth knowing that I took no sickness in the 18 months I was there (and in the last 30 years I’ve only had 5 days of sickness – from a week off with Covid).
I managed about 10 years with no sickness as well, but it was predominantly desk based and I could hide behind a stack of tissues/turn on the fan heater/work from home when ill. When I finally escaped back to outside work, meeting external customers, physically demanding tasks and being out in the cold and wet for 9 hours a day, unsurprisingly I did need to start taking the odd sick period.
And there is nothing to be proud of by taking your illnesses into work to share around, be a considerate colleague and stay home!
did you bring Bert to the meeting?
did you bring Bert to the meeting?
Bert chaired the meeting.....
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(My previous well vented spacious office, not my current shop floor shared windowless germ filled shit box office.)
Well you are very lucky then. Do you accept that there are people less fortunate who have genuinely had to take more time off than you have had to? Not all absences are ‘sickies’
Agree, but a simple grown-up approach cut out most of the 'sickies'.
And there is nothing to be proud of by taking your illnesses into work to share around, be a considerate colleague and stay home!
Not something I'd do, just don't get ill - a combination no doubt of genes, lifestyle AND luck.
It really isn’t its fair request and allows the absence to be covered. A GP can give an estimate and then can be easily extended or reduced by a phone or e appointment.
Its not really a sensible question nor a sensible use of GP's time. I've no idea what you mean by "allows the absence to be covered" - there's no legislative requirement for a sick note to claim SSP. The GP can't provide a start date for the transplant, because he doesn't know. He might be able to guess how long recovery might take, but without a start date that's meaningless. The idea of getting sick note in advance of an unpredictable event is a bit odd. I might crash my bike tomorrow and be off work for the next 6 weeks, my GP won't be able to pre-empt that but my employer will manage just fine. If I am in ICU for the first 10 days after my crash my employer won't be getting a sick note either. Now if the request was "can you give us something to put on file that shows how long you might be off for" that would probably be quite reasonable. There is probably already a letter from the transplant team telling him he's on the list, what notice he'll get for a transplant, what to expect after a transplant etc. Asking for anything else is a manager or HR person who hasn't bothered to actually understand what is required or why.
The correct response to one of your staff telling you they are waiting for a transplant is, "We are sorry to hear that, but encouraged that there is a potential route forward for you. What extra support do you need before the transplant? Once you have the procedure please ask your specialists if there is anything else we can do to make your return to work safer or easier."
A slight aside - but there are 3 bicycle related Easter eggs hidden in Bert pic#1.
#1 is easy and in full view....... but isn't necessarily intended for bikes.
#2 only a bicycle framebuilder would know and you'd need a very sharp eye to spot. There are two of them stacked on top of each other.
#3 an actual bike component and one that is still on my current desk.
Good luck!
#1 is easy and in full view……. but isn’t necessarily intended for bikes.
Multitool behind the scissors?
#2 only a bicycle framebuilder would know and you’d need a very sharp eye to spot. There are two of them stacked on top of each other.
Is that the protractor cum angle of the dangle thingy. Between the wooden box and the tape measures?
#3 an actual bike component and one that is still on my current desk.
What looks to be some kind of headset bearing cups on the right, next to the scissors?
I know I'm probably miles off and I can feel Bert's disapproving gaze judging me.
Multitool behind the scissors?
Cold! But the right area.
Is that the protractor cum angle of the dangle thingy. Between the wooden box and the tape measures?
Warm but it's not that. It's one for frame builders and is obscured by having a Hennecke injector pintle stood in the centre of it not that it really helps anyone.
What looks to be some kind of headset bearing cups on the right, next to the scissors?
It's a Bingo!
'Obsolete' Chris King polished 1 1/8th upper and lower cups desk ornament.
2 to play for.
And there is nothing to be proud of by taking your illnesses into work to share around, be a considerate colleague and stay home!
I completely agree with this. People who are proud of never taking a day off sick are really ****ing weird. What do you want, a medal, a round of applause? Going to work when ill is just ****ing stupid.
I completely agree with this. People who are proud of never taking a day off sick are really * weird. What do you want, a medal, a round of applause? Going to work when ill is just * stupid.
No, extra pay as we do more 🙂
And as said, I just don't get sick and never have (even when I was long-distance flying, and multiple time-zones, at least weekly).
#2 only a bicycle framebuilder would know and you’d need a very sharp eye to spot. There are two of them stacked on top of each other.
These?
Yep! I made a pair of laser cut jigs for holding a IS51mm brake mount to a frame. Had to be some advantages for putting up with this HR crap.
Not mine
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1 Easter egg left!
No, extra pay as we do more
Ah! So a fan of presenteeism too 😉 being at work more often doesn't necessarily mean you do, or get paid, more.
He can get one from the GP to cover the recovery period before the op.
He can't cos the GP (or anybody else) doesn't know when it'll be. He'll get a phone call and then have three hours to get Leeds for the choppychoppy.
But anyhow glad RNP stuck it to the man!
Last Easter egg: 3m tape / helitape for frame protection?
Last Easter egg: 3m tape / helitape for frame protection?
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Yep - it was that thick amalgamating mastic for chainstay protection.