Well done KP, early trip home
Geez, just not happening for England is it.
Nope. When it's going against you, it really goes against you.
Its ok you can relax now Prior at the crease tow daddy hundreds and an easy win
Broad pushed on a wheelchair to slog a six for the win
IF you could fuse Athertons or Boycs defensive instincts to KP you would have a century machine but he has at least tried
Stokes has at least been one discovery this series
the eternal optimist - these guys could get to 400 if they play well
cue dismissal before the close
he has at least tried
Meh. Even I'm narked at him after his last dismissal. Really starting to think that we need a few new faces, Stokes and Root being two of them.
Stokes has at least been one discovery this series
Throw in Root, he could do something, could have done with some more time protected up the order but getting thrown in deep will only help him grow up fast.
Well, annihilation evaded for another day
Right then, day 5 starts tomorrow, all scores off the board. Stokes and Prior to open the batting heads down and concentrate. 253-4 sounds possible?
[quote=mikewsmith said]Right then, day 5 starts tomorrow, all scores off the board. Stokes and Prior to open the batting heads down and concentrate. 253-4 sounds possible?
Not based on current form 🙂
So, it's started already. A phone call and an email in the past 10 minutes from Australian friends who are in no way gloating, bragging, or in any way acting in the bullish manner they've complained about us poms doing for the last few years.
I suppose I could ask them how many tests they've won this year ❓
I was optimistic before the series started, have been to the lowest depths of pssimism, so now I'm trying realism.
Theres a new ball due in a dozen or so overs. If Stokes and Prior can get back in in the morning - and it is like starting again, it doesn't matter what score you have on the board against your name, you have to adjust to the light, the pace and bounce - even then you'd say that the new ball will nick one or both out. So I can't see anything other than a defeat.
IF however both can get in, be positive before the new ball comes, that could be another 40 odd runs, leaving 200-odd to get. Australia would be massively favourite clearly, but they aren't as good yet as we've made them appear, and they've not been under any pressure yet with the ball. No, it won't happen but I'd love them to feel a bit of heat over a game that they're nailed on for and just see what they're like if it doesn't go entirely their way.
Maybe I'm a bit nuts - but - I think England have a wee chance.
It would be better if Broad could bat confidently but as longer Stokes and Prior are batting the more the Aussies might get a bit nervy.
Anyone still keen to defend Pietersen?
You will be awarded points for trying, which is more than 'the man' himself.
England 18/1 to win.
You never know......
Bookies are sheisters, arent they?
18/1. To get a score that's getting on for 100 more than anyone's ever chased to win a test match. On a pitch with more cracks visible than the average housing development, never mind a building site. Against a side that has only stopped larruping us for long enough to tell us how badly we're being larruped / how much they enjoy it. They reckon that in this situation 19 times, we'd manage it once?
We might though.........
[quote=tiggs121 said]Maybe I'm a bit nuts - but - I think England have a wee chance.
There's a man who didn't support England in the 90s. This series has reminded me a lot of that - the only difference being that I had some hope before the series started. Let's be honest, who expected England to even have a chance of a draw before this game started?
I'm sure it's already been said, but Pieterson has to be by far the biggest disappointment. For sure the stats say that Cook is doing far worse than him (certainly in comparison to his last visit), but at least it's taken some decent balls to get him out. Has Pieterson actually been out once to a good delivery?
[quote=theotherjonv said]Bookies are sheisters, arent they?
50/1 wouldn't really be all that generous. Maybe 100/1?
The odds you can get on Australia winning are probably closer to the reality? Oh, they're not taking bets on that?
Careful there aracer. You can't go criticising KP on this thread.
So, where do England go from here? Well, Melbourne obviously, but in a figurative sense - where?
Do they forget the practice and go do some bonding? Does Flower have them at naughty boy nets every waking hour from now until Boxing Day?
I'm really not sure what they can do as this tour has unravelled so badly and so quickly.
And to reiterate the point that our Geoffrey makes, this Aussie side is not actually that good. They are over-achieving now they have some belief, but they are a bit of a rag-tag bunch in all honesty. A spinner (albeit a good one) who bats at 11. A keeper with gloves of cement a lot of the time. A hit or miss quickie. Etc.
Another massive disappointment has been Swann. Something that is quite obvious when put alongside Lyon is how little he drifts the ball. This is because he has no 'body' in his action. I also think he is suffering from the kookaburra ball as the wider, but much flatter seam is not as easy to grip to really give the ball his usual tweak. Lyon probably isn't suffering as much as he puts a lot more 'body' into the delivery and 'comes around the outside of the ball' more, thus getting some more action on the ball that way.
What England do need is a genuine 'enforcer' (not a pumped up middleweight like Broad). Someone who can overwhelm with sheer pace (not so much need for lateral movement). The problem is that Finn seems to be going backwards at a rate of knots and Tremlett just bowls piss-pace nowadays.
I'm casting around for anything that could give me optimism at the moment, but really can't see anything.
[quote=dannyh said]Careful there aracer. You can't go criticising KP on this thread.
Really? Clearly I've not read the whole thread (have been following psychle's example from the last few series and avoiding discussing cricket) - have people found some plausible way to defend his shot selection? If he wasn't as good at actually hitting the ball when he chooses the right shots it would be so easy to drop him for his attitude - the trouble is, in the position we're in if he happened to have a good couple of hours we might stand a chance in a game, not something I think any other player (on either team) could do in the same way.
So, where do England go from here? Well, Melbourne obviously, but in a figurative sense - where?
...
I'm casting around for anything that could give me optimism at the moment, but really can't see anything.
I suspect the best thing to do is write off this tour and assume we'll lose 5-0 (to be honest I think that might actually be best for us - anything else could be an excuse to hide the problems). We had a few lean years after 06/07, but came back strong after.
Anyone still keen to defend Pietersen?
I thought you'd stoppped talking about him, lest it enlarge his ego further. Some people just can't help themselves...
and the new hero leaves the field, rather than milk the applause he looks annoyed and pissed off. Something some senior players need to look at.
Still 170 to win
Well played by Stokes, gave the English fans something to celebrate in an otherwise mediocre performance.
Swann gone, last rites being read 8)
At least Broad will have an excuse for finding walking difficult 😉
and Bresnan
gave the English fans something to celebrate in an otherwise mediocre performance.
Mediocre is too kind.
At least Broad will have an excuse for finding walking difficult
He already had one. He was just following your Captain's lead:
And that, as they say, is that 8)
and that is it, time for some changes at the MCG, give some people a chance to do something different.
So it turns out that being the only pom in an office of ozzies is rather hard work today. Talk about bad winners!
I think I may have made a career limiting move by putting the Chairman through to the MD so he was on the phone as the last wicket was taken! 😆 😈
Is Jamie still doing the photoshop wonders?
Any chance of Boycott's mother wafting a bit of Rhubarb in time for the Boxing Day test?
Where from here? Well, the 'same' team needs to play at the MCG. In front of that crowd, to put a bunch of rookies up for the humiliation that follows would be wrong. At least if the current lot fail again then the new crop don't carry the scars, and we might enable them to find some form again when the real pressure's off and see who is still worth keeping.
No-one in England really cares about cricket anyway (just following what the Aussies claimed when they were losing all the time - can we assume they care again now? 😉 ).
grum - Member
No-one in England really cares about cricket anyway (just following what the Aussies claimed when they were losing all the time - can we assume they care again now? ).
It certainly seems that way. They also seem to be suffering collective amnesia about the last three series
So moving on, Starting XI for MCG?
Boycott
Vaughan
Strauss
Bell
Prior
Botham
Stokes
Agnew
Tuffers
Broard
This Australian team are a pretty average bunch really. A couple of decent players maybe, the rest are brawlers, alcoholics and chokers.
But, and it's a big but, they have been ably led and coached by people who have identified weaknesses in the opposition and exploited them.
England of the other hand are just toilet. Self confidence is admirable but it has to be justified. The cracks have been evident for a while now. Poor planning has led to this. No plan B, players who put in repeated poor performances and don't get dropped and too many ****tish egos.
That was gifted to the bogans on a plate.
It's not the start of the some long reigning dynasty for australia, the big bash league will be starting and it's back to your 6 and out cricket with fireworks and pom-poms to earn $$$$$'s
England will have to regroup and changes needed but not sweeping ones just a reshuffle and a change of attitude, there's some new talent waiting in the wings that will need to be introduced. Interested to see where they go from here.
Yes I have broken my own taboo. So, seeing as I have fallen into my own trap, can you have a go at blindly defending Pietersen? Go on, just for old times sake.
Your 'defend the indefensible' is:
It's ok to hole out to long on when you should be batting to save the game so long as you are Kevin Pietersen.
Discuss.
Prepare to trot out:
"It's the way he plays"
"You have to take the rough with the smooth"
"He's played great innings in the past"
"He's just misunderstood"
Yawn.
Why Not, it's a dull boring game that takes 5 days loose even though you know you have lost on day 1. It's only fair to entertain the poor fans who have traveled a long way to watch the drivel that England are producing. It was up to KP to entertain and make people feel good about Cricket without him the tour would be a complete loss.
SA must be really looking forward to hosting Australia, and to be honest India probably fancy their chances against this shower of an England team even in England.
Calm down, we don't need a A_A-style borefest on this thread. You made your point. Some of our views differ to yours. Deal with it.
So can I take that as confirmation that you think the manner of his dismissals in this series have been fairly scandalous given the match situations in which they occurred?
There are other players who need to be worried as well as Pietersen, but there are two things that make him especially culpable.
Firstly the manner in which he has given his wicket away suggests absolutely no consideration for the team or the result. This may be accidental (in which case he is a pillock) or more 'I'm KP and I play how I want' (in which case he is disruptive pillock.
Secondly he has manoeuvred himself into quite a clever position. To drop him will mean having to indulge in all sorts of media justification. It will also probably prompt an immediate retirement from international cricket (aka a tantrum), thus enabling the media to level a charge of 'denying the team it's best player'.
I really don't need to calm down, I'm quite clear and there is no conflict in me - Pietersen has to go. If he can't handle that and retires, then so be it.
Nearly all of this current team should be worried, however it think most of them have the humility to accept this and try to rebuild their reputations the correct way. I don't think Pietersen does.
I really feel for Cook. I hope Flower doesn't hang him out to dry by making him make all the decisions.
So can I take that as confirmation that you think the manner of his dismissals in this series have been fairly scandalous given the match situations in which they occurred?
No, you can stop trolling for a rise. The manner of[u] some[/u] of his dismissals has been scandalous. Others, such as his second innings in Adelaide, were pretty unlucky. Many of the batsmen, Bell included, and Cook especially, got themselves out in stupid ways (though thankfully none quite so farcical as Watto, but Bell was culpable both for not catching it, then failing to spot the run out there).
We get that you don't like KP. I'm not quite sure what you're trying to achieve by ramming this viewpoint any further down our throats.
I really feel for Cook.
I don't. He was outmanoeuvred by Clarke of all people at just about every level of captaining the fielding side.
So merely asking someone to comment on something they have been vocal on in the past is 'trolling' now is it?
It seems your definition of 'trolling' may be tainted by your own inability to to be objective when it comes to KP.
It is clear we aren't going to agree on this, so does that now mean I am not allowed to mention it? Will I have to use code?
So merely asking someone to comment on something they have been vocal on in the past is 'trolling' now is it?
When you do so repeatedly, and in a deliberately goading manner with clearly no intention of debating, rather just stating how right you think you are, then yes, that's trolling.
You made your point: some agreed, others disagreed and pointed out that there are several others equally (if not more) culpable here, not least gormless Captain Cook, whose dismissal in the second innings at Adelaide was the most stupid bit of cricket I've ever witnessed from an England player (Bell's fielding of Watto being a possible exception, but then I only listened to that, rather than watching it).
KP has a responsibility to the team, and one that on occasion he clearly forgets. However, Cook is the captain of the team. If the cap fits, he must wear it. Most of his dismissals have been atrocious, and his fielding strategy has been clueless from the moment we've been under pressure. Ironically, there have been a couple of suggested fielding/bowling strategy changes suggested by KP that have yielded wickets. He also actually has a better tour average than Cook, make of that what you will.
I'm not sure KP wanted to cleverly manoeuvre himself into a situation which would only arise if he wasn't scoring runs. Don't forget this is a guy who wants to play till 2016 and had to grovel his way back into the team. You may as well replace KP's name with several other senior players - of course the Management would have to justify dropping them, it could lead to retirement and the media not being best pleased. A more obvious reason why he is more culpable is being the star batsman he should be setting the example to the youngsters.
I'd also like to pick up a point from your post about Cook being outdone in the captaincy stakes by Clarke. It is very difficult to envisage a situation in this series so far when Cook has been able to exhibit his captaincy skills. No runs on the board and equipped with bowlers who are neither taking wickets nor restricting runs. Granted they have had the Aussies five down for less than par a couple of times, but I'm not sure how Cook could have capitalised on these moments any better than he has. Clarke has had some good plans. The KP two mid wickets was one, but when the batsman doesn't have to walk straight into it.
Cook's batting form has also deserted him, but you can't accuse him of not trying. His very essence is that of a trier. He is now batting so deep in the crease that he has no price against a ball that deviates even slightly. That Harris ball that did him for a goldie was a good ball, no mistake. But it only clipped the top of the stump. If he had got a stride in and been hit on the front pad, the initial decision may have been not out. The review may then have saved him if it was a half ball impact. On such small matters big things can rest.
