Day we were due to conclude missives (Scottish equivalent of exchange really) for a move next week, our buyers have asked for an asbestos survey. They have had 9 weeks to ask questions, and yet only today do the questions emerge.
1974 semi detached Bett home, with a 2002 extension built and cavity wall filled. Compete renovation over the years. The buyers are convinced that the old insulation in the attic could be asbestos - despite an old handwritten note stapled on the beams with a (now defunct) company logo on and a date of 2002 on it. We have one older ceiling, but everything I have touched in the house the last 14 years has been modern plasterboard, not older board. All the old garages gone on the whole street - and even the last one knocked down a couple of years ago a few doors up was asbestos free.
How likely is this to be an issue for us?
Any delay is £££££ as we have time off work, vans, hotels, carpet and flooring fitters etc etc all booked and paid for at this late stage.
FFS, I hate moving.
Is it worth playing hardball and saying no? As you say, they've had nine weeks to ask questions
If they pull out then surely they are as f___d as you are, as they too will have a chain below them and nowhere to move into, so their sale may well fall through too.
Sounds like you have little option but to get a survey and sampling done.
Are your buyers trying to lever something? Do they want to delay the actual move? Or pull out?
Not sure of the time it will take but I don't think it would cost that much?
I doubt an indemnity policy would cover it.
Is it worth playing hardball and saying no? As you say, they've had none weeks to ask questions
That's what I did when we moved in 2022 - first time buyers had months to ask questions. We kept asking the estate agent if everything was OK as we expected them to be twitchy about everything.
Day before we were due to exchange they asked for a full survey to be done. We just said nope, not a chance you've had months to get that sorted.
They went ahead anyway.
If nope doesn't work then offer to get a sample tested of just the insulation in question.
If you look for a UKAS accredited test lab in your area then likely they have a same day service.
The buyers are convinced that the old insulation in the attic could be asbestos
What insulation? Fibreglass which is the most common form of insulation, in England at least, doesn't contain asbestos. Vermiculite might possibly though, have you got that?
I can't comment on the legal requirements of having an asbestos survey but based on your comments I would suspect that there is little likelihood of asbestos in your house. The most likely places to find asbestos in a house the age of yours I would have thought is the garage, artex ceilings, panels associated with the boiler, possibly old floor tiles, and possibly original internal doors (some fire check doors did contain asbestos)
I can't imagine a survey would be that expensive?
A 70’s house has plenty of potential for asbestos, pipe insulation, soffits and facias, artex, vinyl floor tiles, so lots to test if you’ve still got any of that. So I’d tell them you’re more than happy for them to pay to get whatever they want testing but you’re not getting the samples as it’s possible it’s asbestos.
I can't imagine a survey would be that expensive?
You may think that,but as soon as the word asbestos is mentioned (IME),all bets are off.
The insulation is, as a non-expert in such matters, fibreglass as far as I can tell and dated 2002. I have added similar.
Everything on the house is replaced over the lifespan of the house - soffits are UPVC and wood, every plasterboard I have touched (more than a few) have been modern fibreglass with Gypsum or similar stamped on, there are no old pipe insulations etc etc. The house has had huge renovations, new heating, new windows, new floors, new walls etc etc
The only thing that worries is an artex-looking dining room ceiling.
As for motivation, WhoTF knows why. I am not budging on price.
The good news is the buyers are first timers and due a baby in January. So if they pull out (maybe something they should have done 6 months ago 😉 ) then they are also stuffed as well.
Meanwhile I am looking at masses of packed boxes, a family members garage full of stuff like our bikes and general chaos if they pull out...
The insulation is, as a non-expert in such matters, fibreglass
Well in that case I don't know why they appear worried about the loft insulation.
The artex if original from 1974 is likely to contain asbestos but the amount will be relatively very small and poses no health issues unless disturbed
Just say no. They've had long enough, and pulling out now is a big call for something so trivial.
Edited it to add: I am not an expert, but everything you've said would reassure me.
The good news is the buyers are first timers and due a baby in January. So if they pull out (maybe something they should have done 6 months ago 😉 ) then they are also stuffed as well.
Say no, explaining everything you have done above and that it's unreasonably late in the process to be asking for this now.
If you're feeling exceptionally nice, say you're willing to offer, I dunno, £200, which they can choose to put towards the cost of any survey they may wish to complete after the completion
Leaving this to so late in the day sounds to me like a deliberate bargaining ploy. If it was me, and given what you said of a wean on the way, I would give them all the info mentioned above and then call their bluff.
Say no, this was one thing that came up when we sold MIL's 70's house. Artex in ceiling, insulation. The artex was done much later in the 80's and the insulation was within last 30 years. My wife and her two sisters had lived in the house since they were born so knew the history.
The only thing that was once in the house made of asbestos was a chopping board (I kid you not)- they all remember their dad with one as he used to work with the stuff, before it was known to be dangerous.
I think it's reasonable to say no - they have had ample time to ask, there was a home report which presumably did not raise the possibility of asbestos, and the 'risk' of asbestos was present at the time of them making an offer/agreeing fixed price etc, ie it's not something that has come out of the blue or could be considered unforeseen.
That said, it looks like you could probably get a test done pretty quickly however, assuming there was asbestos found (very unlikely given your comments about the house) - then what? Are they gonna pull out or want a reduction? If they pull out they still have to pay their solicitor. If they want a reduction then my answer would be the same - you had ample time, a home report and the 'possibility' of asbestos was present at the time of offer. Plus you've been very accommodating in allowing a test etc etc, so you would be in a favourable position
As an alternative: yes, we split the cost of the report, we up the house price by £3000 if the report is negative and reduce by £3000 if positive.
I'm not sure why you are asking us, you're paying professionals.
And enjoy your new build which might have a bit of snagging but no asbestos, lead paint, salpetre, capricorn, wood worm, dry rot, damp, draughts, cold-Winter-stifling-Summer, structural issues... . 😉
I've had 6 asbestos reports on French properties from the 30s, 60s and 70s. The only asbestos found was in a concrete ventilation brick/conduite in a 64 build. No obligation to do anything as it was deemed "stable"
Presumably they're paying as it's part of their due diligence. They're first-time buyers so it didn't occur to them until one of their parents suggested it and they're expecting a child so are hyper-vigilant. They're on a relatively tight schedule too so won't want to delay. I'd get on with it asap.
Not going to be an issue if they get the survey done in time for missives before you move.
I wonder if they have thought about their decision after receiving the report? Is their plan to buy if the report can’t identify any asbestos? Will they pull out if it does spot any?
The plan is to allow an asbestos survey at thier cost. I've also made it clear that this isn't a bargaining process - they've had weeks and weeks to investigate, and any old house will have issues. If they want warranty, buy a new build.
I've made it more than clear that a delay to the moving date is unacceptable to us, particularly in light of the fact that last Friday they confirmed all was good for moving date and they were going to conclude missives yesterday.
So vans, hotel, carpet fitters were all booked last week, new flooring paid for, new blinds and curtain rails for new house bought etc. As well as a non-refundable deposit on our new build house, with 5 other buyers waiting behind us in the queue....
Still leaves us in the position that if they decide to pull out now a week before moving, we are massively out of pocket and potentially having to scramble round to un-pack, remarket our house over Christmas and try to keep our new house on side.
Stress doesn't even come close...
Stress doesn't even come close...
I hear ya brother.
When we moved here the seller's estate agent called at 5pm on the day we moved out of the place we were selling and our stuff had disappeared off to storage, to say that they were pulling out. The reason being they'd had enough of our solicitors, who had been absolutely appallingly bad throughout.
Cue lots of pleading to please, please, please don't, we know our solicitors are shit, we're as furious with them as you are, we definitely want the house, and then sending an absolute rocket of an email to the senior partner at our solicitors threatening to take them to the Law Society for negligence unless they sorted all their shit out within 24 hours and got everything back on track.
And then as I was putting the last bits of stuff that were coming with us rather than going into storage into our van, I discovered it had a flat tyre. And after I'd finished changing the tyre and went to close the sliding door on the side, the bearing on the slider collapsed... Honestly, I nearly exploded.
Blimey...all the fun.
The plan is to allow an asbestos survey at thier cost. I've also made it clear that this isn't a bargaining process
I can assure you it will be. What do you think will happen if they find it?
Call their bluff.
When will the survey happen and how long will it take for lab tests and for surveyor to write their arse-covering "there may be signs of asbestos, suggest further investigation" report?
If they find it they will pull out as it scares people.
.....
If they find it they will pull out as it scares people.
TBF, it would scare me too. Not the health implications, (assuming it's not all crumbling and broken) but the potential cost if it ever needed dealing with as part of other repairs or modifications.
how long will it take for lab tests and for surveyor to write their arse-covering "there may be signs of asbestos, suggest further investigation" report?
That's not how this kind of report works. It's not subjective like a general building survey, the tests are definitive.
If they find it they will pull out as it scares people.
I have made enquiries with the estate agent about the other two parties who offered on the house this morning.
TBF, it would scare me too. Not the health implications,
Well it probably should. The microscopic asbestos fibres that you breathe deep into your lungs will never leave you and over time they will quite likely split and aggravate your lungs causing a immune system reaction which can lead to a very nasty cancer.
Think about that when you drill into an artex ceiling to fit a new light fitting.
There is no reason to be terrified of the stuff but it also makes no sense to be casual and dismissive of the dangers it poses.
In theory if their offer didn't come subject to an asbestos survey then they could be on the hook for any costs you incur as a result. Discuss that with your solicitor - the reality is enforcing such things is very hard, and offers often have increasingly wooly clauses, so in your shoes I would say, "we are happy for you to organise and pay for an asbestos survey [to be completed by DD/MM/YYYY and reported by DD+x/MM/YYYY], in the very unlikely event that it finds asbestos we will cover the cost of the survey and permit you to withdraw from the sale without penalty. However if, as we expect, there is no asbestos the costs are entirely on you, and we expect the sale to continue, and you may incur other liabilities if you do not complete." IMHO you really can't get fairer than that, and if they are just being paranoid will either pay, or see your confidence as reassurance. If a lender is being a tit (I had to pull some similar BS on the person we bought this place from for a risk of land contamination because the lender decided a former brownfield site had a risk) then they probably need to do it.
Does your home report flag up some specific (or more likely vague) concern?
While I agree that they should think about these things, the day of concluding missives after 9 weeks of due process with us due to move in 6 days is rather too late....
Does your home report flag up some specific (or more likely vague) concern?
No. And neither did the survey when we bought 12 years ago.
While I agree that they should think about these things, the day of concluding missives after 9 weeks of due process with us due to move in 6 days is rather too late....
I had a similar thing, but at the 11th hour they suddenly wanted gas and electric certs and an indemnity policy for the conservatory that had been built over 15 yrs... I had a letter from the council saying it was OK to build but that was the only paper work for it, and probably 50% of the houses in the immediate locale have very similar conservatories. I'd already given them a discount of 2k for some other bits and bats, and as it was my late nans house it was vacant occupancy and I'd 'priced it to sell' in the first place. I got the impression they were just trying to nickel and dime me for a further discount. I knew they were committed as they had an FTB lined up to buy thier place. So I called thier bluff and straight up said no, I'll put it back on the market if they ask again. They did not ask again. It's a risk though but I was confident it was attractively priced anyway.
I suppose if you know from looking at the market yourself rather than relying on the agents word, they are not going to get better for the money, it's probably a bluff.
"we are happy for you to organise and pay for an asbestos survey [to be completed by DD/MM/YYYY and reported by DD+x/MM/YYYY], in the very unlikely event that it finds asbestos we will cover the cost of the survey and permit you to withdraw from the sale without penalty.
I wouldn't be offering to pay survey costs. If the buyers are permitted to get a survey done then costs on them surely?
I suppose if you know from looking at the market yourself rather than relying on the agents word, they are not going to get better for the money, it's probably a bluff.
Indeed - our house is priced 'in need of some work' and is, I would say, cheaper than comparable condition houses on the market locally by about £5-10k or lose a bedroom/room for same cost.
"we are happy for you to organise and pay for an asbestos survey [to be completed by DD/MM/YYYY and reported by DD+x/MM/YYYY], in the very unlikely event that it finds asbestos we will cover the cost of the survey and permit you to withdraw from the sale without penalty.I wouldn't be offering to pay survey costs. If the buyers are permitted to get a survey done then costs on them surely?
Yes - but offering to pay IF it actually turns up anything sends a message of confidence which might just mean they relax and don't bother.
Survey done, at thier cost.
Surveyor, while needing lab confirmation, is very confident that there's no asbestos.
The issue being the lab doesn't work weekends and usually takes 48 hrs to email results - which takes us to Wednesday. And we were due to move Thursday.
Fingers crossed for you Matt.
I can almost hear the Countdown theme tune!
It sounds positive. Good luck.
Transpires that there was more to it than we were told. Flippin' solicitors not doing a good job then running round at the last minute. Hard to tell who was delaying, but it is clear that some porkies were told and someone has not been on it.
And no-one seems bothered about the asbestos survey on the strength of the surveyor (not lab results) basically saying '20 years experience tells me that you don't have asbestos'....
Anyway, seems we just concluded missives today on the closing time bell.
Just the money and keys to change hands now on Thursday morning....
Good luck !
Phew!
Stw house warming?
Had that when i moved out of the UK. The garage roof was falling apart. It was noted on the sale documents that it required replacing and would need coordination with a couple of neighbours (who were waiting for my sale to go through). We already had a quote, and documentation in place to have it done. Cost was (i think) about £700 per house.
Buyer announces 2 days before the exchange (vacant possession, i'd already bloody emigrated) that *his* builder was going to do the work (not my problem) and had "discovered" that the roof was asbestos (it wasn't, we'd had it tested, and how can he get in to check before exchange? I knew exactly where every key was.) and he wanted 3 grand off the sale price (already priced to sell).
I said no.
Then he announced that they weren't sure about the side access, did i have the legal right to use it (was shared between 3 houses, but on one of the other deeds, but with permissive access or something) he then wanted another 2k off if he had to go legal to secure access.
I said no.
The sale went through anyway.
My solicitors, and estate agent both confirmed, off the record, that he and his solicitor (his uncle i think) were nasty, unscrupulous shits who they hated dealing with. Nickel and dime *everything* then transfer the property into other relatives names to minimise tax exposure and rent (usually illegally).
2 years later he got busted for tax evasion and a long list of other dodgy landlord related practices. By that point my house was apparently owned by his 4 year old niece.
As an aside, his first offer on the property was 40% less than the listed price, but he was round to offer me money (cash) within an hour of the house going on the market.
Ended up paying very slightly over asking.
Arsehole of the highest order.
An update. We didn't conclude missives. They're now wanting upto £500 'warranty' that the free fridge (double American thingy, 3 years old) and the free dishwasher (2 years old) are still working...so they have not signed missives again today.
I've two vans outside with all the boxes and half the furniture loaded in, mattresses on floor. Both solicitors have the money in accounts, all the paperwork bar this one clause is agreed....
And we still may not have the house in the morning, the agreed moving date that was conditional from us accepting their offer 10 weeks ago.
I've had enough of this shit....
Good oh !
They're now wanting upto £500 'warranty' that the free fridge (double American thingy, 3 years old) and the free dishwasher (2 years old) are still working...so they have not signed missives again today.
Just take the items away if they are "free with house" That way they've not lost money on the purchase as they weren't included in sale
Hope you get this sorted, it really is a miserable process isn't it.
WTF happens to seemingly reasonable people that they start making these crazy demands. Last house we sold was about 130 years old, we had done some recent work to get it ready for sale. One offer we had was dependent on a snag list. Not happening, it is an old house, go away.
People we sold it to had terrible solicitors, I'm sure they had never dealt with anything other than modern buildings. The shit they were coming out with, in the end my wife insisted we tell them to piss off at the eleventh hour over some indemnity crap around a flue. It was only 50 quid, but we were so pissed off by then it nearly fell through. I paid it without telling her to force it through - to this day she doesn't know I did that.
Firstly I would point out that you already had been exceptionally accommodating in allowing an 11th hour asbestos survey as a matter of goodwill.
Then I might move to offering a 100 quid indemnity as a gesture of further goodwill.
Lastly and only upon successful conclusion of the sale I would nail a prawn under the stairs.
We are done. Some more last minute wobbles today, but our solicitor seemed to basically kick off (professionally) at lunchtime and by 3pm we were done.
Only half a job at present - 6 carpet fitters at 7am tomorrow and an unload of all our worldly goods as they work their way round the house...
6 carpet fitters at 7am tomorrow and an unload of all our worldly goods as they work their way round the house...
Good news!! 👍👍
I can't imagine having carpet fitters in the day after I've moved in though.
I'm more a sit and chill for a month, let the nerves settle, live out of boxes and see how I want things after I've got a feel for a house type of person!
We've not moved in - we are in Premier Inn and everything is stored in two hire vans and the garage.... Mind, kettle is out for the morning....
Completion on exchange day sounds like an utter nightmare. Piss-takers charter with the seller up to their elbows in cost commitments around the move. Glad you've stuck the landing though.
Like others, my first thought would be deliberate delaying tactics by the buyer's solicitors. Either on behalf of the buyers or because of their own **** ups.
They have a huge range of these tactics to employ and the fact that it happens so often suggests it's not genuine concerns behind it. Our solicitors got my name wrong on some of the docs once, I told them, they said it didn't matter then when we had a delay with the mortgage they suddenly decided they had to take a couple of days to fix the documents which bought us the time we needed. I also think they're not above doing that sort of stuff just to make it look like they're earning their money.
They're now wanting upto £500 'warranty' that the free fridge (double American thingy, 3 years old) and the free dishwasher (2 years old) are still working...so they have not signed missives again today.Standard bullshit lawyering. To be honest it is stupidity on both sides legal professionals if this stuff emerges in the last minute - which it frequently does. Their side know you are unlikely to actually let the sale fall for the sake of £500 warranty, so left this to the last minute. Your side must have seen this tactic before so if they knew there were such items included should have been crystal clear weeks ago that any such bullshit means you just take the items with you.
It's all pointless anyway - we had a central heating system which had such a warranty that didn't hold pressure when we moved in - we tried to claim under such a clause, they disputed... and ultimately our lawyer said - if you actually want to get the money back my legal fees will be more than the plumbers! (And that money was in a client account under Escrow!).
We are done. Some more last minute wobbles today, but our solicitor seemed to basically kick off (professionally) at lunchtime and by 3pm we were done.
If they had done that a week ago you might have been less stressed! Of course its a balancing act because the otherside might have pulled out properly. But basically from what I can see these things often get stuck with lawyers trying to one-up each other rather than remembering that their clients both want a smooth and stress-free transaction.
And we are toasty in our new home. This is the first house we've lived in as a family where we are detached. Where we have a garage. Where we have rooms big enough or where one of the bedrooms isn't downstairs. While there's a few snagging niggles to get sorted (mainly paint that's splattered on everything!) it is working as it should.
We had three huge days - where it felt everything that could go wrong did. From hire vans being 4 hours late at Enterprise, to a truck load of chickens blocking the A9 road, to torrential rain, to having to carry all the new carpets and flooring across the estate as they closed the road.....but also some amazing old and new neighbours, some herculean efforts from carpet fitters, sun just when we needed it, and just lots of tea and coffee to see us all through.
I'm impressed that on a frosty but sunny morning the heating barely came on, and we've used about a third of the gas we would have in the old house...
Sounds great. 🙂
I decided to get rid of the overpaint and minor defects myself rather than have workers come in making a mess and ****ing up stuff that was right. When they build luxury yachts they have to stop trying to make things perfect at some point because doing one thing they invariably slightly mess something else up.
I'm a bit disappointed that a new build uses gas. 🙁
🤣
" a truck load of chickens blocking the A9"
I heard that on the radio. Should have known someone here would be caught.
The driver of that lorry will forever be known as .'The A9 Chicken Choker'