Miller seems to be doing ok, saw him on an advert the other day
has Lance got really thin arms in that photo or has the elastic gone in his jersey?
Millar never tested positive and on the one occasion when he was challenged he confessed, served his ban and came back. Armstrong however.......
Good God. Are they still flogging this dead horse? It's a shame really, how many times has Armstrong been tested now? Who cares anymore?
How very dare you?
Don't you know he's the most tested athlete in the most tested sport in the world š
Ah yes, HemAssist.
LOLcopterz.
It's sort of sad all round whatever the outcome. What I find distasteful is the way they're going for Armstrong, what about all the potential users still in the peloton. In my opinion you should catch the cheats while they're cheating. In a way Armstrong is history and the results won't be changed, he will just be seen as the rider that won seven tours though possibly by cheating.
I bet the press would rather have Armstrong than twenty current no name riders.
Among SI's revelations
according to a source
former USPS rider Floyd Landis recalls
In a letter reviewed by SI, Armstrong's testosterone-epitestosterone ratio was reported to be higher than normal on three occasions between 1993 and 1996
who rode with Armstrong on the Motorola squad in 1995
Regurgitating old info and really they are flogging the same old smear-campaign in this story huh?
'if found guilty of taking it in his Tour winning years'....
The references are all in the 90's. The writer is a pillock.
Pretty much still all speculation and heresay, not sure I can believe anything from Landis though.
If he is proven to be a doper I think it will be a day of mixed feelings. Deception in that he cheated then lied and happiness that I should be the driving force behind wholesale changes, and these changes are needed, with or without a Lance conviction. š
Millar cheated and was caught. Doping should be a lifetime ban from all competitive paying-sports. Full stop.
Would you trust any former doper?
I thought Millar was quite pragmatic about it and simply accepted his guilt and said that there was no real advice or guidance for not cheating.
There's a guy here who's due to return this year after a two year ban and after the 'I never knowingly took anything' stock statement has not been heard from. He accepted the ban and stayed silent. I say respect to him for his behaviour in regard to the ban.
What's the latest on Bertie?
Doping should be a lifetime ban from all competitive paying-sports
+1
Armstrong has built a cancer related business, often erroneously thought to be a charity, on his reputation as a hero. If his heroic exploits are tainted, what message does it send to his worshipers who don't have the same access to energy giving 'treatments'. If as is suspected and often claimed, his 'people' have been bribing and threatening their way through the last 20 years, maybe it's good that the horse that is still racing is being flogged a bit more.....
"linking Armstrong's team to controversial Italian physician Michele Ferrari as recently as 2009, though Armstrong had said he cut ties with Ferrari in 2004."
That's not the 90's
And of course for years he denied having any links with Ferrari....
Oh Jesus H Christ the Martians have landed.
If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.
I've thought for a long while now that they might as well just accept that drug taking goes on (like in bodybuilding) and just let them get on with it. If they really went for it we might see the tour schedule condensed a bit... we could truly have 'Sleepless in the Saddle'.
rOcKeTdOg - MemberDoping should be a lifetime ban from all competitive paying-sports
+1
I imagine several thousand or even tens of thousands of pro's and semi-pros would then be banned.
Whatever the rules it's the hypocrisy & sanctimoney I detest, like how Dwian Chambers has been treated. He served his ban, let him get on with it.
IanMunro - MemberWhat's the latest on Bertie?
Pat McQuaid doesn't believe he'll be in the Tour and UCI would like that[url= http://www.rfec.com/vistas/noticias/cronica.aspx?id=9869 ]The Real FederaciĆ³n EspaƱola de Ciclismo[/url] make their decision at the end of the month, then any sanctions, if at all, will be decided. But the time frame doesn't look good for him in the Tour.
Yawn.
Lifetime ban for those that 'forget 3 times' as well. If its your livelihood why the **** would you 'forget' something so important 3 times?!!!
Yup, you might. I've a friend who works with a variety of track athletes including one who forgot. Apparently she really is quite ditzy, and pretty rubbish at keeping on top of these sort of things.
Oh I agree but if there was a rule in your office that you would lose your job if you forgot to turn off your PC at hometime on the third occasion you'd nervously check and recheck before going home wouldn't you?
Structural integrity of bubble at 100% Captain.
Quoting Floyd Landis, dear me. The lad's got negative credibility. Actually makes me think Lance didn't dope the things that Floyd comes out with.
[i]Lance went on holiday and asked me to look after his blood bags in the closet whilst he was away.[/i] Of course he did Floyd, now go and have a lie down you delusional fantasist.
I think Lance used doped teamates to drag him around France, question is, can he hold the wheel of a charged teammate whilst riding clean, maybe he could.
He doped. We all know it. Just like everyone doped in the 90's. He beat Pantani, the best climber of his generation, who was doping massively at the time on a couple of big mountains. there is no way he could do that clean, no way on earth. Armstrong is different to other cyclists, he's one of the most famous men on earth, through his tour wins and celebrity he owns a massive chunk of SRAM and Trek. The US government bankrolled the US postal team, so its a little bit more serious than a 2 year ban, if found guilty (and I doubt he will, he can afford the best lawyers on the planet) he will go to prison.
Lance went on holiday and asked me to look after his blood bags in the closet
Reminds me of the 'sausages' provided by a mate from a Butchers someone couldn't remember which one they bought them from in Spain...
I think that there is no way, if Lance was cheating, that he would have been able to evade detection. The staggering amount of tests and scrutiny has never found any concrete evidence. The only titbits of info have come from sources who have always had a vendetta against him or other "caught" riders trying to show up other people.
I'd hate to be in a court with some of the people, including some on here who really don't have even a fraction of the facts, who "know" he cheated - I doubt I'd get a fair trial.
I personally don't know if he cheated or not, maybe only Lance knows 100%, but the weight of evidence surely points to him being an honest rider. For every tiny accusation based on hearsay there are hundreds of negative tests.
I'd like to think that the process of going through cancer has shown him what real pain and suffering really is, and he has been able to develop himself far beyond what most people could do as he knows the ultimate limits he has been to. Coupled with the fact that he was a very good rider before the illness and the natural body advantages he was born with make me think, yeah, someone could achieve why he did in an honest way.
A tired magazine looking for a circulation boost?
I think every so often a writer wants to make a name for himself or its a quiet news week so they pop out another 'Lance about to be banned'.
A guy literally bust his balls to win his tours yet some fat **** wants to ride on the back of him for free at the expense of his reputation.
A true American hero with pricks on his coat tails.
Jealousy's a terrible thing.
Regurgitating old info and really they are flogging the same old smear-campaign in this story huh?'if found guilty of taking it in his Tour winning years'....
The references are all in the 90's. The writer is a pillock.
+1, no new revelations. This is all known documented stuff. Dont know about the writer but it does seem a rather lazy piece of journalism.
iDave
Armstrong has built a cancer related business, often erroneously thought to be a charity
Ive always been under the impression that it was a non-profit organisation. Although not strictly speaking a charity it is still charitable non?
robdob
David Millar
Jan Ullrich
Barnie Riis
Richard Virenque
just off the top of my head, all admitted doping, not one tested positive.
but the weight of evidence surely points to him being an honest rider. For every tiny accusation based on hearsay there are hundreds of negative tests.
I'd argue the opposite I'm afraid. I wanted to believe that he was clean but so many things have come up that it seems clear to me that he did dope. As to negative tests, any number of doped riders who've been caught out in other ways have said that it was easy to avoid detection.
well, the feds seem to think there's a case to answer, and a grand jury is not to be messed with.
the truth, or at least some version of it, will out.
As to negative tests, any number of doped riders who've been caught out in other ways have said that it was easy to avoid detection.
The dopers & cheats have always been ahead of the testers, sadly..
I know nothing about the business setup, but a non-profit organisation still has to pay staff costs, and I imagine the staff cost of Lance could be very very high.
As to the livestrong accusation, I believe that's about the fact that Armstrong uses it to pay for some pretty hefty bills for travel, etc that while you can argue are part of his job for the charity, are pretty massive.
Some debate on it here: http://forums.cyclingweekly.co.uk/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=News&Number=104954&page=0&fpart=1
who've been caught out in other ways have said that it was easy to avoid detection
They were caught. Your sentence is redundant.
Clubber hes the keyman to the business.
Not really when they were caught by the law rather than the sporting body. Not all countries chase their athletes for doping activity.
Assuming that it was (hopefully not is) easy to avoid doping controls then testing negative proves nothing and that's a perfectly valid point.
Like Spain Clubber?
Quite... though it is gradually improving IMO
Funny that so many sportsmen chose to live there and also that so many teams were hold training camps in Majorca, etc but now at least some have move after they starting doing drugs busts there too..
LALA almost certainly wasn't "riding on water", and his ever so careful statements that never ever say that he isn't doping, his demeanour against any rider who tried to talk about doping and in the end for those awful books all add up to him going down in the Federal investigation.
Hey up trolls are about.
for example, there were no tests for synthetic EPO in 1999. His blood from that tour was re-tested in 2005 0r 6, can't remember which, totally anonymously and traces of synthetic EPO were found. He got out of it, by claiming all sorts of nonsense, including the blood has not been stored correctly (it had been) which had caused the blood to chemically react somehow and create synthetic EPO!!
There's a paper out there somewhere from the lab that tested it.
Clubber - good link there about LAF, it ends up on a thread with 50 pages!
I'd hate to be in a court with some of the people
I know, I was on an inquest Jury and the one thing I took away from it was that I hope I'm never wrongly accused of anything and end up on trial. Some people were disgraceful - a combination of not understanding the difference between evidence/facts and strong opinion/probably. Or a case of "what do I need to say to make this end faster".
Jeff Novitzky
This guy isn't interested in whether or not Lance should retain his 7 TdF titles, its more to do with cross-border drug trafficking which the US Authorities will take a lot more seriously. As they will with the fact that his 'charity' site has made him personally $millions. Whats the difference between livestrong.com and livestrong.org?
you guys do know that currently USPS and armstrong are the centre of a federal investigation into systematic doping. ITs not just Landis that has made these accusations he's been backed up by a few ex well known usps riders and guys from other teams.
Head over to bikeradar theres a huge thread running about this and quite a few sad people eagerly awaiting LA's downfall...
Also the EPO retesting of LA's 99 tour sample is not admissable as it wasnt carried out properly, it was conducted by a journalist (who somehow knew the unknown sample was LA's) using an inadmissable test, so draw your own conclusions on that.
And if anyone thought millar was confronted by evidence and he rolled over and admitted everything youre wrong, he strenuously denied it under questioning until he was threatened with a lengthy prison sentence, and only then did he confess...
Wow! Armstrong really gets the petty minded tall poppy trimmers into a frenzy.
I find it hard to believe that after so many tests that he has done anything other than sail close to the wind in an era when drugs were being blatantly abused.
The quality of the information against him seems highly tainted, to say the least.
In any case, I also think a bit of slack should be cut for cancer survivors. It's not a trivial disease and has a massive effect on the body.
I'm pleased he has made a fortune - too many top sportsmen end up sweeping out stadiums in their old age.
Also the EPO retesting of LA's 99 tour sample is not admissable as it wasnt carried out properly, it was conducted by a journalist (who somehow knew the unknown sample was LA's) using an inadmissable test, so draw your own conclusions on that.
Wrong, it was carried out by a french lab, under the exact same conditions all tests are carried out. 12 samples from the 1999 tour contained synthetic EPO. A journalist somehow got hold of the results and key that linked the samples to names. 6 were Armstrongs
I find it hard to believe that after so many tests that he has done anything other than sail close to the wind
how can you 'sail close to the wind'?
he either doped or he didn't
I'm sure he doped, but it doesn't bother me in the least.
Just make the best of the available training techniques init š
Alot of jealous people in this world. Look to your own achievements first (oh I believe you have).
Warton I stand corrected - but I do know the samples as kept at the laboratory are stored by numbers - someone (the journalist) was given the data to let them link the samples to specific riders which should not have happened...
If he did or not Im not too bothered, I def wont lose any sleep over it, itll be a shame but there is an evergrowing mountain of evidence.
That's a cop out though - you don't have to be jealous to call him out when you think it's clear he doped as much as anyone. FWIW I still admire him as a single minded, tough as hell competitor but much less over the years as a person as more and more about him has come out.
howd that happen - dup post!!
Do you know if they were testing for EPO itself, or metabolites? A glycoprotein like EPO is not especially stable - endogenous half life of several hours IIRC. To test a SIX YEAR old urine sample (ie basic solution of urea) and expect to draw any meaningful conclusions is laughable, tbh. It's as unreliable as the Landis testimony to me.Wrong, it was carried out by a french lab, under the exact same conditions all tests are carried out. 12 samples from the 1999 tour contained synthetic EPO. A journalist somehow got hold of the results and key that linked the samples to names. 6 were Armstrongs
Basically I believe Armstrong doped for commensensical reasons, but the lies people will tell to try and frame him just increases the reasonable doubt that maybe he was clean all along.
I believe they were 'testing' the test ie it wasnt at that time a recognised test...
cant find the original articles re this to confirm..
he has never failed a test but it is hard to believe he was able to beat people who were doped if he was not doping...that would be a super human feat IMHO
There are so many drug cheats in the sport, it is hard to believe that one person was not cheating. This is shameful for the sport which has had doping as an integral part since the days of drinking brandy, then amphetamine etc.
Shame really I think some of the riders today are clean but certainly not them all.
the trouble is with landis is his testimony is gaining more and more credibility- he appears to have given himself an insurance policy in the form of photos and testimony from other riders, and is being supported by Greg Lemond, hes also, on behalf of the 'feds' worn wire taps to meetings with key people which have given them a lot of evidence.
Its a shame its happening but maybe this is whats needed to finally clean up cycling...
and is being supported by Greg Lemond
š
and is being supported by Greg Lemondš
Alot of jealous people in this world. Look to your own achievements first (oh I believe you have).
Shall we compare and contrast Hora and LeMond?
he has never failed a test but it is hard to believe he was able to beat people who were doped if he was not doping...that would be a super human feat IMHO
Considering the weird things cancer can do to people, it's not beyond the realms of possibility that in the process of being cured his body changed significantly to make him a better cyclist. Don't forget that cancer is cell mutations and it is cell mutations that cause positive evolution. If you look at how rubbish professional human athletes are aerobically compared to some other animal species it's not that mad a concept. Super human in this sense is thus possible!
You do know about the vitorol/hatred and sustained campaign that Lemond has for LA don't you?
Hora, no offence chap, but you're coming across a bit like a kid refusing to believe Santa isn't real.
Regardless of the increasing likelihood that Armstrong doped, he was a horrible person.. look at how he treated Simeoni.
In road cycling, if something looks too good to be true, then it is. Floyd's stage 17 in 2006, Vino's Stage 13 ITT in 2007 etc etc
Basically I believe Armstrong doped for commensensical reasons, but the lies people will tell to try and frame him just increases the reasonable doubt that maybe he was clean all along.
Well I suspect that's true and it certainly seems from the Balco case that Novitzky isn't adverse to sailing very close to the wind in order to get the evidence he wants/needs though the end result was that the dopers were outed - a good ethical discussion over whether the ends justifies the means on this...
Landis is being supported by Lemond? Try googling 'Landis Lemond hearing'. Now I may be a bit dense at times, but that doesnt seem all that supportive to me...
Things changed between them after Landis admitted to what he'd done/been doing.
he was a horrible person
I quite like the chap! š
Regardless of the increasing likelihood that Armstrong doped, he was a horrible person.. look at how he treated Simeoni
He had a personal spat with Simeoni.
Do you take prisoners if someone attacks you off the bike?
Oh and Santa does exist to many children around the world.
LA's selfish determination to win & to crush all others before him is admirable but as an individual.. Im not sure I would want to hang with him, I cant help but get the impression that he would always have to have the last word & would always be trying to find new ways to express his Alpha Male status.
Strikes me as being rather insecure..
I have little doubt he doped but the manner in which some are going for him smacks more of jealousy & hatred than any particular desire to "do the right thing". Its a shame because Im sure if there was less vitriol being poured out by his detractors they might find more support & LA would find it harder to get away with some of the stunts he has pulled.
hora - its not just aimed at armstrong its aimed at dopers in general - you may recall lemond had some fun and games with landis and his assistant in court...
But hey Armstrong did lose him a lot of money when he got trek to sever ties with him...
It's already been said but even if he was 'getting assistance', and I would be quite shocked if he wasn't, then all he did was give himself a level playing field. I don't think it detracts from his achievements.
As for "[i]If a court finds that Armstrong won his titles while taking performance-enhancing drugs, his entourage may come to be known as the domestiques of the saddest deception in sports history." ......yeh right [/i] š
Back in the '90's I got involved with [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexi_Grewal ]Alexi Grewal[/url] on a range of 'enhancement' products aimed at primarily at mtb. It never really did as much as it should have, partly due to Alexi's well document personal problems but also due to the fact that it was legal and after talking to someone heavily involved in 'sports supply' it was obvious that its market was not top level athletes!
Competitive people + driven. Do you think these attributes make the same person lazy/sloppy/happy go lucky outside their sport/etc?
No. Its in their psyche to WIN!
hora, you know nothing
simeoni talked about doping in the peleton, no 'personal attacks' on Armstrong. Armstrong then set about destroying the mans career and livelihood.
TBF, Lance was the one who started the spat.. Simeoni testified against Lance's doctor - was nothing to do with Lance. Lance tried to bully him out of cycling as a result.
Simeoni sued Armstrong for libel. warton if I disagreed with events (papers/media know everything huh?) and then you threatened me with libel I'd probably bop you and put you gently on the floor to recover. š
Yeah, he sued as Armstrong launched an attack on him, just because he testified in court against his doctor.. c'mon chap it's not that difficult to understand!?