there was trade with and migration to and from southern Europe and Scotland 5000 years ago
Sure, but that isn't the mass-migration and movement of people to and from continents that we are experiencing now. The two are incomparable. The vast majority of folks 5000 ya aren't travelling to the next settlement over, let alone a different country This is the evidence that DNA and genetic study has given us.
Kilo starts a provocative thread then starts getting picky when members post blindingly obvious stuff like it would be easier for someone from an Anglo-Saxon culture to integrate Denmark than Afghanistan.
Sometime I like STW, sometimes I feel it's just another social media load of social media bollocks.
Anyhow I reckon I'm a native but I'm not sure the locals would. My family on one grandmother's side left France to settle in England, and first appears in Norman records in the early 12th century. As someone notes above not many Normans crossed the channel, probably under 10 000. I moved back to France, but my native status as a Norman descendant wasn't taken in to account when applying for nationality.
How many generations? If you are born in a place and confirm at 18 the wish to have that nationality I reckon you are native. And if your parents are native of a place so are you if you wish to be. So IMO you can be a native of two places.
I feel sorry for UK Spanish dual nationals who are in theory only allowed to have only one nationality but sometimes have two. The UK now forces a British passport on dual-national travellers which is going to make travel to the UK more than a little bit complicated. Brits who have Spanish nationality (sometime as a response to Brexit) now can't travel direct between the UK and Spain without the risk of losing a nationality.
Brexit - making life difficult since 2020.
The vast majority of folks 5000 ya aren't travelling to the next settlement over, let alone a different country This is the evidence that DNA and genetic study has given us.
Where exactly are you talking about 5000 years ago? The evidence, both genetic and isotope, for what became Britain points at several major shifts in population especially a thousand years later with the influx of Neolithic farmers.
There's a perverse irony that the biggest trigger for mass migration is only just beginning as the changing climate makes it unviable to live in some parts of the world, so we're talking about population level displacement rather than a relatively low number of migrants. And the people who are strongly against migration are probably those who also deny the existence or effects of climate change.
Native, maybe. At some point no thankfully so I was able to get an Irish passport post Brexit. I'd rather be seen as European.
I am Scottish, born in Scotland so yes a native literally. I'm no more or less a part of the people of Scotland as defined by TJA than anyone else living in Scotland..
My maternal grandparents emigrated separately to Canada where they met and emigrated again to the USA. The Midwest.It was bad timing though 1930s think the Grapes of Wrath etc So they returned first to Canada then to Scotland..My paternal grandparents are from the south west of Scotland for many generations one side and from Ireland on the other.
It's all pretty much a roll of the dice.
The evidence, both genetic and isotope, for what became Britain points at several major shifts in population especially a thousand years later with the influx of Neolithic farmers.
Yeah but that 'influx' is hundreds of people over generational span displacing even smaller groups of late paleo-mesolithic HG that lived* here. It's really hard to estimate populations, obviously but 10000ya you could've probably got the entire population of [what's going to become] Scotland on a Megabus, and the numbers of folks that continue to live as neolithic farmers in mainland Europe far far outweighs the numbers coming here. Vis we can tell that Amesbury archer was from the alps (if memory serves) and he had better technology, further reinforcing the idea that the European settlements are much more stable and greater numbers of people and they've made more technological progression . Folks have always moved about, just that it's not true for 'most' individuals.
* the evidence for permanent paleo-mesolithic HG settlements in the UK is really not great, it's pretty much just Star Carr and I don't think it's clear whether they lived here permanently or did seasonal hunting or something else.
The vast majority of folks 5000 ya aren't travelling to the next settlement over, let alone a different country This is the evidence that DNA and genetic study has given us.
this simply isnt true
theres been multiple big population sweeps in the last few 1000 years
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-59741723
Should we let in anyone who wants to come here? Or discriminate?
What should other countries do when we all want to retire somewhere sunny?
Tbh I'm not really that interested in your lowbrow race and culture wars mithering, I thought the hot air was being kept in the politics thread .
I'm struggling to see any other reason why this thread exists, TBH.
Will this thread end up being used by Reform's version of ICE?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2026/feb/18/nazi-letters-paper-restorers-holocaust-research
Yeah but that 'influx' is hundreds of people over generational span displacing even smaller groups of late paleo-mesolithic HG that lived* here
Not sure how you concluded generational span but lets go with it. Whilst the numbers are small as you yourself note so was the population. As such a large percentage of the population was moving at various times.
Whilst evidence for the mass migrations in the early middle ages seems somewhat suspect now prior to that the evidence suggests more movement than was often considered in the past.
The altar stone analysis for example raises questions about exactly how complex the social networks were at the time Stonehenge was built since it came from the far north of Scotland somehow or another.
The entire Stonehenge landscape such as Silbury hill required large numbers of people to come together from a wide area.
The same can be said elsewhere at the same time and also much earlier eg Göbekli Tepe.
theres been multiple big population sweeps in the last few 1000 years
the dates given in that BBC article span half a millennia, more than 500 years, 20 generations or so, that's the same time span from Tudor England to now. It's still only 'some' people. And the pre-migration mesolithic population of the UK is both teeny and it's not clear if it was settled. So that's some people moving to a largely empty place over 500 years..It's an 'event' in the same way the entire Younger Dryas is also an 'event', but I'd bet as much as 50p of anyone's money that there's more people coming over in small boats every year than that entire period.
Events of that long ago are of no use as a comparison tool to migration that has happen in the couple of generations post-war.
Not sure how you concluded generational span but lets go with it
The population swap from Paleo-mesolithic HG to settled neolithic farming was over hundreds of years. That's what I meant by generational.
Sure, but that isn't the mass-migration and movement of people to and from continents that we are experiencing now. The two are incomparable. The vast majority of folks 5000 ya aren't travelling to the next settlement over, let alone a different country This is the evidence that DNA and genetic study has given us.
The vast majority of people are not traveling to different countries now
It's still only 'some' people. And the pre-migration mesolithic population of the UK is both teeny and it's not clear if it was settled. So that's some people moving to a largely empty place over 500 years..It's an 'event' in the same way the entire Younger Dryas is also an 'event', but I'd bet as much as 50p of anyone's money that there's more people coming over in small boats every year than that entire period.
As a % of the population? Small boats are a tiny % of the total immigration anyway
I'm struggling to see any other reason why this thread exists, TBH
Just interested in people's views of nationality v place of upbringing, if any tbh. I have found that as I got older I had less in common/ investment in UK culture despite being born there and no feeling of Englishness whatsoever, is that common - I have no idea.
What is UK culture? I'd be interested to know. There's no doubt some things that are held in high regard throughout the entire UK , but no doubt there's some that are not
Born here, but my Great Grand Parents were born in 8 different countries, only one being British by Birth.
The more I think about the topic, the more I come to realise it's all still about invisible lines on a map. Even people living in South Africa, Ethiopia, Rift Valley doesn't have ancestors going all the way back the start of humanity, we're all from somewhere else.
Borders are just another tool to divide us.
Borders are just another tool to divide us
I am not sure about this. I think we fear and distrust those we perceive as different to ourselves a lot of the time
What is UK culture? I'd be interested to know. There's no doubt some things that are held in high regard throughout the entire UK , but no doubt there's some that are not
There is no UK culture. LOndon and the highlands are so differnt.
Rentier Capitalism exists in all places with people living if the labour of others.
Johnny foreigner here . I was born in Surrey but. . .
Mum from Yorkshire, at least 6 generations from there or thereabouts on her side .
Dad was Mauritian and his dad and extended family, and pretty sure he was an illegal immigrant as he never had a UK passport
Don't think there's much point in getting a Mauritius passport though.
Borders I have never seen one
I have stood many times at the heavily guarded border between West and East Germany. Eventually after many years I was able to stand in the same spot, see no border and be able to continue my walk Eastwards.
The culture thing is amusing if looked at light heartedly. So having spent about 36 years on the other side of the channel here are a few light hearted and no so light hearted insights into British culture - vive la différence. 😋🙂😬🤔🤫😇
Badly dressed, no style
The Mini, cool.
Inedible food: bight coloured jelly, gravy and over cooking meat.
An over fondness of pies and puddings. I asked a Spanish mate if he'd had any UK girlfriends whilst working in the UK. He replied one, a fitness instructor, the only one that didn't have a square arse. Junior's mate went on an exchange and commented on fat arses and legs and no way.
Sex: hang ups and perversions, but mainly hang ups.
Benny Hill and Mr Bean
The lobsters on the beach.
Falling over drunk wearing a mini skirt and high heels at minus five inthr city center
Thatcher, la dame de fer and Boris the idiot (who was in Sainte Foy last week, Boris not Thatcher, she's dead)
The royals: Diana Godess, Queen good, Charles dick, Andy devil. Not that the revolution was bad thing, just jealous
Music: inovative, trend leading, brilliant
Manchester United and Cantona good, hooligans bad.
Rugby, England irritatingly good, Wales Arms Park paradise. Everyone is delighed when England lose whatever their nationality, except English of course.
School uniforms and bullies
Housing: brick boxes all the same
Roads, on the left, but why ???
Beer flat and not cold, whisk(e)y good
Expensive !!!
😉😇🤫🤔😬🙂😋
Well there’s a long list of boring stereotypes. Shall we do the same for the French? Berets, onions, long lunches etc. etc.
Yawn.
Go ahead, DrJ, our OP gave us a xenophobia thread, lets do it properly. Not all the comments on my list came from French people, there are Spanish and German quips in there too, all made with a smile IIRC. Let's rejoice in our differences rather than claim people aren't native on some little Englander Criteria or other.
Well there’s a long list of boring stereotypes.
Not surprising given who wrote it.
For the what makes someone a native and the culture argument it is interesting looking at historical stereotypes and how they change. Historically for example the English stereotype was a lot more emotional and a lot more physically expressive. A modern stereotype which seems to match would be Italian.
This national stereotype business is very tedious. There are probably more differences amongst the population of one country than there are stereotypical differences between countries.
I am French although having spent over half my life in the UK, I have occasionally been accused of having become too British.
My partner is British but she has spent far less time than me in the UK.
My kids have both nationalities but they're often embarrassed to be British, particularly when they see the behaviour of the "patriots".
What is UK culture? I'd be interested to know. There's no doubt some things that are held in high regard throughout the entire UK , but no doubt there's some that are not
Football, racism and (with no trace of irony) curry.
Well there’s a long list of boring stereotypes.
To be fair, aside from the food (which is a throwback from GIs' experiences of wartime Britain & rationing which never went away) most of that isn't far from the truth.
Football, racism and (with no trace of irony) curry.
As I said earlier "There are probably more differences amongst the population of one country than there are stereotypical differences between countries". Though I do like a curry.
Check out the UK governments official cultural test if you want the official take on what constitutes Britishness. It's knowing about dates and kings and people who were impotant last century or before. Perhaps more pertinant is that Danes shag twice as often as Brits (the Guardian today) and most people spent 14 years voting against their own interests including voting to sabotage the economy because there were too many foreign doctors, nurses, plumbers, fruit pickers.... .
And where exactly do people get these cultural values from? Media oulets owned by rich foreign based billionaires intent on manipulaling Britsh group think (culture) so as to further their own interests.
This thread is an example of how "identity", "national identity", demonising them the immigrants, rule Britania etc. is being used to play on peoples worst instincts to manipulate turkeys to vote for Christmas.
The thread is about the extreme right notion that even people born in Britain aren't British if the aren't the right colour, religion, origin... .
So we've humoured the OP and it's neen quite revealing. Some of the replies I thought "good, I'm not the only one to see it that way". Some people can see it's devisive populist right wing nastiness. Which I didn't include in my light-hearted list of comments I've had made about my country of origin. I find light hearted quips and stereotypes amusing. I find questionning how native first second and third generation immigrants might be symptomatic of a type of politics I hold in contempt.
I'll bet someone will be along soon to spread wisdom like the French don't know that deodorant exists, all Italian men are in love with their mother etc. etc.
I was born in 1954, and I don’t recall ever really thinking about what British ‘culture’, or what being a ‘native’ really involved. By the time I was old enough to actually understand anything about other cultures, countries, etc, I was already aware of there being people from other cultures, and it just didn’t strike me as unusual, and as I’m an avid reader, with a wide range of interests, especially the history of the islands I was born on, recent discoveries using DNA to find where buried remains originated from has shown that we’re an incredibly diverse bunch of people, from an incredible number of cultures from all across what is now Europe and Asia.
I’m thinking about getting a DNA test to see what my ancestors came from; it’s likely from Northern Europe, Saxony, considering how much of south-western Britain was Anglo-Saxon, but maybe some hints of Roman, because they had a major presence around here, Roman Bath is only twelve miles away, and there are Roman remains around Castle Combe, which is six miles away.
Report
Check out the UK governments official cultural test if you want the official take on what constitutes Britishness. It's knowing about dates and kings and people who were impotant last century or before. Perhaps more pertinant is that Danes shag twice as often as Brits (the Guardian today) and most people spent 14 years voting against their own interests including voting to sabotage the economy because there were too many foreign doctors, nurses, plumbers, fruit pickers....
I get your point and agree with you to a certain extent but I think to suggest, sorry if you're not , that the anti immigration movement is a particularly British thing is just wrong . The rise of far right ideology is happening all over the world and I think is down to the the fact that all over the world normal people are struggling to make ends meet whilst a certain privileged few can use chaos to make billions in profit . People are being encouraged to blame the poor bloke next door who is just like them and trying to make a good life for his family. Reform are polling at about 25 percent now so even if you said that a quarter of the country are mad racist bigots then you could equally say 75 percent are not .
I'm an immigrant myself now and my experience of it is there's good people everywhere but also some right wronguns everywhere but I hope that the good people outnumber the wronguns .
Double post
Yup, moonsaballoon, I agree that the far right ideology is a world wide phenomenon driven by the same dictators, oligarcs, media mogals and financial interests world wide. Yet the people who vote for those interests are those least likely to benefit, they're duped.
Duped, just as people are duped into identity ideology crap such as this thread. It's back to the 30s, bin there, dun that and here we go again.
The fuel on this fire is ignorance, the better educated people are the less they're likely to vote for it.
Exactly. None of this "populism" is new
So we've humoured the OP and it's neen quite revealing
You have missed the context for the OP but never mind I am sure you feel superior about it.
I find light hearted quips and stereotypes amusing.
Uh huh and thats why you doubled down on your bollocks.
Whilst lecturing others about not falling for dubious tricks you demonstrate how completely you have fallen for them yourself. Perhaps physician heal yourself first?
I’m thinking about getting a DNA test to see what my ancestors came from; it’s likely from Northern Europe, Saxony, considering how much of south-western Britain was Anglo-Saxon, but maybe some hints of Roman, because they had a major presence around here,
Different parts of Germanic Europe etc., absolutely.
Ancestry’s reference panel claims to go back about 1000 years, but that's about the end of the Anglo-Saxon period, so anything it shows you will be from post-Anglo-Saxon (and therefore post-Roman) European regions. But as I said in another post, the reference panels change, and more people do a test, so every 6 months when they do a major update, the regions get more and more refined and your ethnic regions change quite drastically some times.
You missed the smileys, dissonance, 12 of them. I've used two methods to get my message across, the stereotypical stuff between the smileys which wasn't to be taken seriously and ruffled your feathers because you did take it seriously and the increasingly heartfelt posts as you've read down this page. If those have ruffled your feathers good, but it wasn't my intention to ruffle the feathers of any humanist, woke STW members.
Night, night. Sleep on it.
If those have ruffled your feathers good, but it wasn't my intention to ruffle the feathers of any humanist, woke STW members.
Well done for sounding like Elon Musk whilst lecturing people on the perils of ermmm listening to the likes of Elon Musk.
It's knowing about dates and kings and people who were impotant
Some people might suggest it's a pity more of our kings weren't impotant😁
