[Closed] are we heading for another shit storm?

molgrips - Member

we need people doing menial jobs

In the short term, of course.

However is having the working classes slaving away doing menial work something our economy should aspire to in the long run?

There seems to be a lot of cultural output devoted to discussing being trapped in dead end jobs in dead end towns.

what else do you propose? that they all study engineering, media studies or tree surgery?

that we import each and every pissy little item? god forbid we get our hands dirty...

and what about Hope? where would your wheels be without them?

Not sure I've really noticed a recession over the past few years - digital is booming, had the best few years I can remember.

As I recall though back in the property bubble builders where charging insane amounts for crap work. I bought my first flat back then as part of a block, and all the flats suffered several major faults including flooding due to the developers being too keen to get onto the next cash cow project.

that we import each and every pissy little item?

Why not?

As long as there isn't a global war, of course...

In the industrial revolution, steel and coal were made in Wales and the North, manufactured light goods were made in the midlands, and the SE hardly made anything but ran all the businesses.

It's no different now, except that it's different countries instead of different regions.

nah, phil... we'll get the foreigners to do that.

dole + foreign wage + shipping + etc < UK minimum wage then it's cheeper for the rest of the country to pay NI to suppourt the dole and buy their toilet paper from India.

You missed income tax and NI receipts from the calc i.e. some of that minimum wage comes back in

 

However is having the working classes slaving away doing menial work something our economy should aspire to in the long run?

Yes lets liberate the people by getting them to do work 😕

Its a nice idea molly but a little ill conceived and something I would expect a teenager to say tbh

and what about Hope? where would your wheels be without them?

IGMC

philconsequence - Member
is 'care' a menial job

Depends on the rest of the population doesn't it? If a peron is worth 100's of £k/pa (your stepmother) then the care to keep them alive is worth the same, if we were a population doing menial jobs then the care industry wouldn't exist as we couldn't afford it.

Thankfully our society has enough of the former to pay for the care of the latter.

Although the end game is the situation in places like Norway where everyone has money and therefore everything (apart from fish) is expensive.

You missed income tax and NI receipts from the calc i.e. some of that minimum wage comes back in

I thought the Government had promised to lift people earning under £9k (£4.50/hour, minimum wage) out of the tax system altogether?

I also missed the closer business and cultural links with India resulting in more incidences of deli belly, leading to a run (pun intended) on toilet papaer. These are all complicated issues.

Its a nice idea molly but a little ill conceived and something I would expect a teenager to say tbh

I didn't SAY anything, I asked a question. That means I would like a response more in depth than just 'no' 🙂

I'm no economicist, but if we imported everything, no-one would want the UK pound, as there'd be nothing you could buy with it, the pound would thus become "cheap", and our labour would this become competitive again.

If it doesn't de-value, we must make something that is of value to other countries, though perhaps it isn't toilet paper or paper towels. Perhaps its, say, Computer Games (we have the 3rd largest computer games industry in the world) in which case, the UK paper towel industry isn't competing against the Indian Paper Towel Industry, its competing against the UK Computer Games industry. If we do that better, the Paper Towel making is best done in the country that makes them best (cheapest).

Its got nothing to do with whether a particular job or industry is menial or not.

I might be talking cr@p though?

Yes lets liberate the people by getting them to do work

'Work Sets You Free'.
didn't they try that in Germany? they had a special camp for it with uniforms and free haircuts. 🙄

Oh FFS! Once again... [url= http://www.christy-towels.com/t-bedroom.aspx ]Christy Towels[/url] isn't toilet roll or paper bloody towels. Its a premium textile manufacturer established in 1850. Supplier of textiles to the queen, wimbledon etc

Its a premium brand sold in Harrods/Bloomingdales etc at Premium Prices, but no longer manufactured in the UK. Clear now?

Just the kind of thing we're meant to be doing, isn't it? High Quality Premium exports?

I'm no economicist, but if we imported everything, no-one would want the UK pound, as there'd be nothing you could buy with it, the pound would thus become "cheap", and our labour would this become competitive again.

If it doesn't de-value, we must make something that is of value to other countries, though perhaps it isn't toilet paper or paper towels. Perhaps its, say, Computer Games (we have the 3rd largest computer games industry in the world) in which case, the UK paper towel industry isn't competing against the Indian Paper Towel Industry, its competing against the UK Computer Games industry. If we do that better, the Paper Towel making is best done in the country that makes them best (cheapest).

Its got nothing to do with whether a particular job or industry is menial or not.

I might be talking cr@p though?

Or engineering, a lot of people say there's none left in this country. Yet there's 2000+ people in this office churning out drawings and documents to build petrochemicals plants all over the world. I'd rather work in this nice air conditioned engineering than a shipbuilders. well actualy I'd quite like to build sailing boats, but that's a bad example.

Oh FFS! Once again... Christy Towels isn't toilet roll or paper bloody towels. Its a premium Brand established in 150. Supplier of textiles to the queen, wimbledon etc

Its a premium brand sold in Harrods/Bloomingdales etc at Premium Prices, but no longer manufactured in the UK. Clear now?

Does it matter? Same arguments apply to Enfield bikes or a cheep T-shirt. The guy designing it (engineer for the former, crative for the latter) is still going to make more money from it than the guy building it. So those are the jobs we should be aiming for. A t-shirt design is as much an export as a T-shirt.

Binners WTF does the queen do with paper towels?

I can't say I'm sorry to see some of the Eastern Europeans (Poles) going back, very bad experiences round our way with poor workmanship, massive cost overruns, ignorance (or just ignoring) building regs.

Ok, but then:

I have never used them.

So I think we can safely disregard your opinion then, as it's one based not in personal experience, but on hearsay and subjective prejudice.

I don't appreciate them claiming child benefit wither for their families back home. By all means come here with skills and settle but a very large portion brought none and just exported their earnings back home.

do you write for the Daily Mail/work for UKIP, by any chance?

Having actually worked with a number of East Europeans, I can honestly say that they were amongts the hardest working, most conscientious and productive people i've met. In my opinion, a real asset to the economy and society in general. i'm sorry to see so many of them leaving, I think we're worse off without them.

My sister works in media in London, with a lot of people with those supposedly useless degrees. The media company she works for is mad busy. The majority of the clients are all over the world. She's always traveling. Examples: Ikea and Renault are a couple of hers. Creative industries like this are responsible for a huge chunk of our exports. Have you seen what a London advertising agency charges for a worldwide product launch, for example? We're talking eye-watering sums of money here!

I do think the bubble has burst somewhat in the media industry, in partucular certain areas such as 'web design', as the market became flooded by young hopefuls seduced by the vast riches on offer that appeared when the internet/dotcom era exploded. I knew of graduates walking into very well paid jobs straight after leaving uni. 'Media studies' courses became inundated with aplications, and were amongst the most popular courses going, anywhere. I rember various commentators bemouaning the lack of aplicants for engineering courses. media studies was hip and trendy, and offered a lucrative career. I don't think that's the case any more though. It's sad because i think you should study something you're interested in, rather than what may make you rich. Greed and economic neccessity will play a big part in any demise in Humanities education, which I think will be a very sad thing for our society.

One of the greatest assets this nation has is our incredibly fluid, diverse, vibrant culture. Letting our creative talents stagnate, wither and atrophy will be akin to letting our industrial expertise slip through our fingers.

[i]Letting our creative talents stagnate, wither and atrophy[/i]

+1.

We'd all only have one STW log in, which would be a shame.

One of the greatest assets this nation has is our incredibly fluid, diverse, vibrant culture. Letting our creative talents stagnate, wither and atrophy will be akin to letting our industrial expertise slip through our fingers.

50 years ago:

One of the greatest assets this nation has is our incredible manufacturing abilities. Letting our inustrial talents stagnate, wither and atrophy will be akin to letting our farming expertise slip through our fingers.

During the industrial revolution:

One of the greatest assets this nation has is our farming tallents. Letting our farming stagnate, wither and atrophy will be akin to letting our hunter gathering expertise slip through our fingers.

During the last ice age:

Ugggg aboogga uhhhhhheeeee gggggeeetttttt agggggggg bbbooooooooo

Just remember we're only a couple of hundred years out of houses made from wood and mud, who knows what the next 50 years will bring.

have to back up mike on this

my previous institute had a large stores department based in chelsea staffed by local londonaaas, big george cross on the wall page 3 girl calenders etc

was a ****ing nightmare! after a series of thefts (laptops, usb sticks never arriving), damaged goods and even the police investigating possible coke dealing

eventually they fired the lot, hired a load of polish guys and gals, low and behold stuff stopped disappearing, orders started turning up on time and intact

glittchy post.

Does it matter? Same arguments apply to Enfield bikes or a cheep T-shirt. The guy designing it (engineer for the former, crative for the latter) is still going to make more money from it than the guy building it. So those are the jobs we should be aiming for. A t-shirt design is as much an export as a T-shirt.

Problem with that idea, is that if everyone is getting into the same industry because it pays better than others, you end up with an industry awash with mediocrity, as people in it are motivated primarily by economic greed rather than a genuine passion for things. And real talent gets somehwat obscrued in a sea of banality.

Of course, we should aim as high as possible, but the creative industry explosion of a decade or so ago didn't actually produce proportionatly great results; instead we are subjected to a great deal of samey, cliched plagiaristic guff and tend to miss the truly original.

As a society, we should be encouraging those with natural aptitude and talent into approriate fields, not saying 'get into X because the money's good'.

I notice MBAs are very popular at the meoment, as apparently you can make lots of money if you have one. I know one woman who did such a degree, got qualified, and went into a very very well paid job in the financial sector.

She subsequently got bored, had never had any passion for it anyway, and now runs her own flower-arranging business. She might not earn as much, but she's a lot happier.

Maybe that degree in Flower Arranging would have been the better option for her from the beginning.

Follow your own dreams, not those sold to you by those with a vested interest in your compliance in their game.

mikeconnor - Member

Ah, so 'media studies' degrees (which I assume you are referring to) aren't worthwhile then?

Interesting that you say that, on an internet forum.

I wasnt making that reference, you did though. 🙄

Hmm.. but do people in the UK actually want work making paper towels? Are there other more interesting jobs to do?

Ever worked in a paper mill? I have. It's hot, noisy, dirty and sometimes dangerous. It also requires skill. Given the choice between doing that and stacking shelves for Tesco, paper making wins every time.

I wasnt making that reference, you did though.

Oh come now; I think you were really, weren't you? 😉

Which, in your opinion, are 'worthwile' degrees, and which aren't?

Which, in your opinion, are 'worthwile' degrees, and which aren't?

The Three Degrees were pretty ok, Hotel Seventy Degrees was naff.

are they not all prizes for attending college, everyone gets one, some have more perceived value than others

Which, in your opinion, are 'worthwile' degrees, and which aren't?

Any degree is worthwhile if it gets you a better* job than you would have without it. Media Studies is fine if you then get a job in 'the media'. If you end up in Starbucks or Tesco then it was a waste of time. Ditto English Lit is a good degree if you want to teach English, it's not worthwhile (and this kinda contracicts my erlier point) if you just sue it to apply for jobs asking for "educated to bachelors degree or higher", in which case I'd not say the ability to run up £50k of debt was an indicator of inteligence even if the degree has got you a better* job.

*financialy or otherwise.

are they not all prizes for attending college, everyone gets one, some have more perceived value than others

Welcome to the 1980's, Technical Collage doesn't exist anymore, collage gives A-levels (or whatever the higher levels of NVQ's are), universities give degrees.

Any degree is worthwhile if it gets you a better* job than you would have without it.

So education is purely about gaining the ability to earn more money then? Nothing to do with personal development and the desire to learn, to become enlightened?

And if a degree doesn't get you a job in a particular field, it's 'worthless'?

Interesting.

Nothing to do with personal development and the desire to learn, to become enlightened?

its all about vocation, shut the philosophy dept years ago up here, -- drama soon after-- despite danny boyle being one of the last intake.

Short term thinking, britain would be vying for top spot in many depts.

And if a degree doesn't get you a job in a particular field, it's 'worthless'?
Interesting.

Nothing to do with personal development and the desire to learn, to become enlightened?

Maybe 20yrs ago when degrees were fully funded.

Maybe 20yrs ago when degrees were fully funded.

I concede that university hopefuls don't have anywhere near the 'luxury' of choice in what they study, which i think is very sad, and why I think higher education should be free to all. because imposing fees on students can severely limit individual freedom and scope to explore their own unique talents the way they should.

And it leads to this:

its all about vocation, shut the philosophy dept years ago up here, -- drama soon after-- despite danny boyle being one of the last intake.

Short term thinking, britain would be vying for top spot in many depts.

Precisely. just because oyu don't value something doesn't mean it isn't of value to others.

You pays, you takes your choice. Seems fair to me.

succesive previous generations have paid, now today's students don't enjoy such a freedom of choice. Doesn't seem fair to me.

I picked and payed for my degree purely because it was something I wanted to study (philosophy).. I didn't once consider my career options come the end of it.... Lucky really.

Given the plethora of science versus religion threads on here, perhaps compulsory philosophy courses for STW forumites are in order? 😉

I think the Scots have the perfect balance - two years of broad courses (including main subject) and two years to specialise.

Anyway this is a bit of a sideshow compared with the potential S-S in Europe isn't it!!!

flanders reckons it will all work out in the end.......

and she too says france is the clef, shes a bit more optimistic about their economy too

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20354081

What do you say to a media studies graduate? “Can I have a double skinny latte to go, please”

It's all pretty irrelevant. Israel will probably kick off World War 3 and we'll all be dead by the middle of next month just like the Mayan's predicted.

and why I think higher education should be free to all. because imposing fees on students can severely limit individual freedom and scope to explore their own unique talents the way they should.

surely that is ok if only the very best, the creme of the crop, get to go to uni. if each student was now given a grant it would bankrupt the system.

i honestly don't believe that we need to send more than 10-15% of school leavers to university in order to fill key jobs.

perhaps pay/subsidise those courses that cover the subjects key to furthering british industry and education.

Bloody hell, Keynes would love this thread

Still, at least we are not sat in trenches firing poison gas at each other.

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surely that is ok if only the very best, the creme of the crop, get to go to uni. if each student was now given a grant it would bankrupt the system.

i honestly don't believe that we need to send more than 10-15% of school leavers to university in order to fill key jobs.

Sorry we do, we need a high tech economy producing and designing the next big things. We don't want an economy tailored to producing and exporting rubber dog shit.

Have you seen how different and more complex a nurses job is now compared to 50, 30 hell 15 years ago? They need to know their shit. It doesn't take a high IQ to do well and be competent in academic fields. Unlike your generation I think a lot of the new generation understand this, how else do you explain classes around the world in bog standard state schools producing highly driven motivated students that are achieving in computer sciences, engineering, health, economics, geology etc? My current girlfriend went to a state school in the Philippines where practically everyone in her year ended up getting good degree's at university because they work...really really ****ing hard. That year would have followed the normal distribution curve for intelligence!

What you're doing is discouraging our current crop of students from competing with them, you want to dumb our economy down. Unless you want to be a factory line worker, a bricky, a chef, a squaddy or policeman you now NEED a degree - because most jobs now need people that can think critically and/or need training and academic competencies that meet certain standards that are best taught in a university setting (eg it's much easier to train nurses centrally at universities and get standards the same throughout the board than it is to do 'on the job training').

Furthermore, education produces a more intelligent population. Get this, the brain is plastic. Yep that's right, your capacity to learn and think is not set in stone by your genetics....it is in fact highly influenced by environmental factors. So, whilst the rest of the world gets more intelligent....would you rather that the UK's average IQ/academic ability started to fall behind?

The problem with certain older generations is that they're living in the ****ing stone age.....welcome to the brave new world! You want the best? Pay for it....spend it on the young as they're your damn future..... and quit spending it on classic boomer love affairs like keeping codgers alive till they're 106.... or shiny new submarines for the red faced Argentine hating tory supporters who still think we should be a world power.

Same shit storm working its way through the economy, why wouldn't a re evaluation of property take years ?
Cash is King.

One day someone will wake up and realise - shitting hell, every pound penny and tenner is in one robbing tossers bank vault. I have an inherent problem with banks being a profit making business sector, because they are so integral and fundamentally important to the economy. Can't they be regulated so that salaries are reasonable and are still reward driven but without sucking every last penny out of the country? I may be wrong but I think they're beginning to realise that competing with each other to the degree they did in the 90's is pointless because no one was going to have any money except the banks and then that would be the end of banking. Like a game of monopoly - you can't carry on playing when one person wins all the paper money without printing more and thus ruining the point of playing the game in the first place.

Ironically enough, whilst they seem totally incapable of installing basic human rights in many of their countries, the Islamic banking system is probably the most well thought out and intuitive i've ever seen - at least in parts. In that system you have a reward structure for bankers and brokers, but not at the cost of widespread debt and the disgusting practices we see in our "democracy" where elderly people have their door kicked down by bailiffs for being a month late on their mortgage.

No doubt someone will bollock me for this, but bring it.

nukeproofriding - Member

where elderly people have their door kicked down by bailiffs for being a month late on their mortgage.

One example of this actually happening is all I ask.

One example of this actually happening is all I ask.

Mortgage owners fall through the gaping cracks in wellfare system because it's more convenient for government to ignore them by pretending everyone who aspires to own their own home is filthy rich.

Meh.... sod all old people have mortgages. They paid them off years ago before house prices rocketed. The people that are getting kicked out of their homes are young families.

Yeah you're right. Young families being effectively kicked out onto the street by paid thugs is medieval. You pay through the nose for the privilege of being able to then pay the mortgage company more money for a house that might be depreciating in value because few working people can afford to buy a house before they're 35 or 40.

Just the one will be fine.