[Closed] Are we European? (NOT a Brexit question!)

erm, which Galicia? Wasn't Saxon there last week? They're both a little quiet.

Please don't quote Jared Diamond

Guns Germs and Steel is a terrible terrible book

if you don't count Yank , and even then, aside from insulting, it's technically specific to the Yankees of the northern states during the civil war

I thought Yankee meant New Englander?

And it does annoy me that people use 'England' when they should say 'Britain'. Also it annoys me when Scots talk about Scotland and England as if they are the only two countries in it.

Apparently, however, people from the Netherlands don't mind their country being called Holland when it's not all Holland. Odd that.

Surely there are only two countries in the UK though? Scotland and Englandandwales.

however, people from the Netherlands don't mind their country being called Holland when it's not all Holland. Odd that.

The Dutch are unusually pragmatic though. I tried learning a few Dutch words whilst there, (please, thank you etc) common respons: why learn Dutch, we all speak English. In Flanders it was much easier to pick up flemish.

molgrips - Member 
I thought Yankee meant New Englander?

To some yes.

From (yeah I know) Wikipedia:

[i]
"Outside the United States, "Yank" is used informally to refer to any American, including Southerners.

Within Southern American English, "Yankee" is a derisive term used to refer to any and all Northerners, or those from the regions of the Union side of the American Civil War.

Elsewhere in the United States, it largely refers to people from the Midwest and Northeast, but especially those with New England cultural ties, such as descendants from colonial New England settlers, wherever they live. Its sense is more cultural than literally geographical, sometimes emphasizing the Calvinist Puritan Christian beliefs and traditions of the Congregationalists and Presbyterians, who brought their culture when they settled outside of New England. The speech dialect of Eastern New England is called "Yankee" or "Yankee dialect". Within New England itself, the term "Yankee" refers specifically to old-stock New Englanders of English descent."[/i]

And the term itself is maybe of Dutch origin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yankee

To some yes

If it's ok to refer to Americans as Yanks then it must also be ok to refer to all British people as English, by that logic?

Specifically?
Geographically? Yes. Culturally? No.
Sadly some posting above have lowered the tone with their nastiness as usual. There was no call to have a go at others who see the world differently.

Also it annoys me when the Scots try to suggest that that's its Scotland and the rest. Its either the 4 countries on an equal standing or one big lump.

We can't be culturally European as there is no such thing as a European culture but loads of cultures within Europe.

Because we are an island we collectively over simplify things with a "us and them" approach when the "them" includes far more differences organically than differences between us and some of the cultures in Europe.

I don't even know why I say "we" as I am not even British. Proves a point, probably. I have been told I was "very British" yet I have met many Brits who were not very British as in they didn't embrace the cultural values of tolerance, respect and consideration which I associate with the UK.

If there's a European culture, we are one of the constituent parts of that culture, therefore culturally european. You don't need to encompass all parts of a culture to be classed as part of that culture.

Re the OP - it's just shorthand for 'Mainland Europe'

Bit of an odd thread as I was asked the other day "are you not an Englishman"

Never really considered it but i dont feel i have English roots? being born in Northumberland gives you an odd perspective not English or Scottish but a Borderer (i know a lot of folks on the Scottish side who consider themselves Borderers) but i consider myself European at the end of the day

mattsccm - Member 
Sadly some posting above have lowered the tone with their nastiness as usual. There was no call to have a go at others who see the world differently.

Nastiness? 🙄

Who's having a go at anyone? It's just a discussion, light hearted perhaps, relative to the topic on how people view themselves nationally or otherwise. And yes I brought Yank into it as a legitimate question on what an 'USA'ian/ican would call themselves or others would call them. It's the only term other than American I can think of, and I'd argue American being specific to USA is perhaps an insult to any other resident of the Americas (not just the USA).

Would like to see the converse, the diagrams that europeans have filled out about the US states. I, for one, would fail utterly miserably!

I'd probably make a reasonable fist of it. I'd almost certainly do better with the US than with European countries.

i'd probly get near 100% on europe.

Here you go.

http://www.jetpunk.com/quizzes/map-quiz-us-states.php

Wales isn't a country, it's a principality.

Just to confuse things the Welsh refer to Welsh who don't speak welsh as english.

British are not European. That would be xenophobic. We're part of the Commonwealth.

(I managed 19.)

Cougar - Moderator
Here you go.

http://www.jetpunk.com/quizzes/map-quiz-us-states.php

14! 😆

29 - I got most of the ones around the edges but the dark interior is somewhat of a mystery

94% on europe, in 3:02, had to take a guess on the lithuania at first, wasn't sure which one of the 3, and I stupidly mixed up bulgaria and romania(I shouldn't have, I know that!)

Should have got 100%, quite annoyed with that! 😆

http://online.seterra.com/en/vgp/3007

14! 😆

I, myself, always refer to 'the Continent',

British are not European. That would be xenophobic. We're part of the Commonwealth.

And probably in a parallel universe as well if that statement is anything to go by.

9 states and 77% euro

I, myself, always refer to 'the Continent',
what makes you think that is any more correct? Which continent do you think the Uk is part of?

I think he's just expressing solidarity with our Asian brothers! 😆

BUT, it is, of course, geographically, culturally, and historically incorrect

English for me though I'm mainly Scott's/Irish descent. Probably because parents were alive during the war and had a strong sense of home and place though my dad was very well travelled. I've spent a lot of time working and living outside the U.K and will do again. I've always called myself English and feel sad that right wing politics has taken 'control' of some of that ideal or at least image. We're all just humans though some are more pleasant than others.

Diamond also proposes geographical explanations for why western European societies, rather than other Eurasian powers such as China, have been the dominant colonizers,[2][6] claiming Europe's geography favored balkanization into smaller, closer, nation-states, bordered by natural barriers of mountains, rivers, and coastline. Threats posed by immediate neighbours ensured governments that suppressed economic and technological progress soon corrected their mistakes or were outcompeted relatively quickly, whilst the region's leading powers changed over time. Other advanced cultures developed in areas whose geography was conducive to large, monolithic, isolated empires, without competitors that might have forced the nation to reverse mistaken policies such as China banning the building of ocean-going ships.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel

nickc - Member

Please don't quote Jared Diamond

Guns Germs and Steel is a terrible terrible book

o'kontrea... why do you think that? surprised you would say that given the accolades he recieved for the book.

personally i think it is a book that is well worth reading...! read it first time round about 15 years ago and have read ot about every three-four years since and still find it very interesting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_Europe
sums things up nicely in the first paragraph.

if you don't count Yank , and even then, aside from insulting, it's technically specific to the Yankees of the northern states during the civil war, though more universally used by foreigners to refer to anyone from the USA.

i find the term Septic to suffice for all dengenerates of all the states.

living on the continent i think there is something special about being an island.... you have a similar island mentality of "them and us" in Sicily. even when living on an island in the middle of a lake there was a similar "them and us" attitude.

 

Very proudly European here.

Partly, because I can't stand the way my countrymen behave sometimes.

Yep, no misbehaving people in the rest of Europe.

What exactly don't you like that the people in your country do that no people on 'Europe' do?

It always amazes me that I only live 86 mls from France...don't feel European though.

Sorry to resurrect this, but I have only just now looked back at it.

We can't be culturally European as there is no such thing as a European culture but loads of cultures within Europe.

This is simply not right. The various tribes of Europe (and, prior to Islamic expansion in the 7th century, North Africa as well) share a common culture based on the Greek and later, Roman, inheritance.

The late historian Maurice Keen described Europe as being something of a 'republic' in the sense that it is one entity made up of different states with a common religio-political heritage and shared artistic and philosophical values.

In this respect, Charlemagne's attempt to draw all Europe under the crown of the Holy Roman Emperor was simply him recognising and consolidating a post-Antique reality.

mattsccm - Member
Specifically?
Geographically? Yes. Culturally? No.

really? language is a huge definer of culture and English is part of the Germanic branch of the european family tree, our lexicon is littered with words and phrases that often match our genetic heritage, norman french, roman, norse etc etc
and cultural memes likewise from across Europe and beyond
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I wonder what particular cultural aspects that you think we differ from europeans in?

This excellent paper looked at the history of fairy tales
many of them turned out to be much older than thought and its amazing how they are shared across countries, cultures and languages

imo cultural barriers are only there if you want them to be

How could we not be European because we're culturally different, but French and Germans both be European even though they are culturally different from each other?

Of course we're culturually and historically European. Bobbins to suggest otherwise. Especially given that we weren't even an island for a large part of the time since the ice age.

Our language is from Europe and is in the same family as other European languages, our people are from Europe, we use so many loan words from other European languages it's hard to even keep track, our scientific and philosophical ideas are completely co-dependent on those of Europeans, we're genetically the same, we even look the same, we share the same religion and history and basically we just are European by any possible criteria.

I can happily think of myself as English, British and European simultaneously. I am happy to be in EU, have lived in France and Spain.
. But I think to say there is a European culture we all share is no more, and in some ways less true that saying we share culture with Canada, Australia or even USA which is more that just language, to do with legal and political systems and history.

sorry, link to the fairy tale paper that Ive posted before, but is ace

http://rsos.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/3/1/150645

o'kontrea... why do you think that? surprised you would say that given the accolades he recieved for the book.

because essentially it's a gross distortion of historical facts?

His central claim that societies fail or succeed because of their agricultural production fails to bear up under even the teeniest scrutiny, and what Diamond glosses over (time and time and time again) is that just because you have guns and steel does not mean you should use them for colonial and imperial purposes....

It's Western Imperialist apologist porn.

in some ways less true that saying we share culture with Canada, Australia or even USA which is more that just language, to do with legal and political systems and history.

Having spent time in the USA, I don't think we share much with them beyond popular culture. And if you look closely even that reveals the huge cultural gulf between us.

I feel we share far more with our immediate European neighbours than with Americans.

Re that book, I have not read Guns Germs and Steel but I have read about 2/3 of Collapse by the same author. Turns out that being told something quite obvious over and over again extremely slowly isn't my cup of tea 🙂

Western Imperialist apologist porn

The very BEST kind of porn, kemo sabe.

I feel we share far more with our immediate European neighbours than with Americans.