True, I think the seminal point for the mess we witness now remains the end of the ottomans though.
I [i]still[/i] can't decide if Suez was a complete moment of idiocy and arrogance, or a truly great and ultimately correct move that we should never have backed down (under USSR and US pressure) from.
Zbigniew Brzezinski's - The Grand Chessboard: American Primacy and Its Geostrategic Imperative ... Essential reading considering the Geopolitical climate right now ...
You could argue we've been cocking about in the middle east sticking our noses where they weren't wanted since 1096.
Not really, after the last Crusade and the murdering bloodthirsty Europeans had left, the peoples of the Middle East, Arabs, Turks, Kurds, and countless other ethic groups, lived in peaceful coexistence, albeit under an imperil class-based social order.
In 1492 they welcomed into the Maghreb 100,000 Jews expelled by European bigots, Jews who had previously lived peacefully under Muslim rule in Europe.
This peaceful coexistence between peoples of all races and ethnicity continued in the Middle East for 600 years, until Europeans addicted to war and killing returned.
Ever since then Europeans, and now the West, has inspired war after war in the Middle East.
They took a few million Europeans as slaves around then. I'd look somewhere else if you want a model society.
I think my reference of [i]"an imperil class-based social order"[/i] makes it clear that I don't see it as "a model society", perhaps that wasn't obvious to you ?
I do however think that it is fair to make a comparison between the 600 years of peace in the Middle East with the same period of time in Europe during which Europeans were constantly killing each other and engaging in endless bloodbaths between themselves. And of course engaging in slavery.
Or do you think it's not fair to make a comparison because it makes Europeans look bad, worst than the people of the Middle East in fact ?
One mans terrorist is another mans 'moderate rebel'
BUT, the question is...
... Could we 'ave them 😈
Actually, those Su34s look quite tasty.
Dare say the west will be closely monitoring how they perform in combat
I'm late. The US need to recruit the strategists from Russia. From the three star General to how they've hit this I don't think the Americans will recover. Plus if the US switch to targetting Assad I can see some tastey Air to ground missiles taking down certain planes.
If you like Assad or not, one thing no one needs is a power vacuum and a US installed Government.
best version, or Putin turns out to be a supreme strategic master after all.
According to a bloke on a R4 show about JC's foreign policy Putin's foreign office is a genius who understands the middle east. Our foreign office blokes aren't.
It had the ring of truth.
Lavrov.
Yeah cos Russian policy of blowing the sh*t out of anything not behind Assad is a lovely policy 🙁 I bet the US and UK would love to have their rules of engagement.
Putin no more understands the middle east than we do, he just has it easier on who to support for his best interests and doesn't need to worry about public hand winging when a kid gets killed.
Its all a very depressing mess.
The US and UK tend to regime change. Wipe the board then attempt to build a Police force, Army and government from scratch. I'd love to see the sucess stories of these attempted/action regime changes please.
(No in Germany they kept alot of the infrastruture/staff/managers and stayed armed presence in country to this day).
WHO is the US and UK supporting. If you read there are many radical factions facing the Syrian government.
Ironically Christian communities have been driven from their historic homes/communities where they were safe under Assad.
I wont post again tonight. Its not all bbc reporting good/bad guys you know.
In case it's not been posted yet: http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/the-russian-embassy-is-making-jokes-about-the-civil-war-in-syria-on-twitter--byoad1CmDg
ninfan - MemberTrue, I think the seminal point for the mess we witness now remains the end of the ottomans though.
I still can't decide if Suez was a complete moment of idiocy and arrogance, or a truly great and ultimately correct move that we should never have backed down (under USSR and US pressure) from.
Possibly, but there's a seminal point in all this I think - (oddly I learned this watching Pawn Stars a few years ago).
This picture was taken on a US Ship a few months after the end of WW2, it's FDR meeting with the King of Saudi, it's said this meeting was to decide the shape of the Middle East and who was going to run it for the sake of secure Oil supplies to the west.
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Evening'. Tragically timely the US have destroyed a Hospital in Afghanistan.
Earlier last week truckloads full of US weapons found their way to a extremist group after the Free Syrian Army traded them for free passage.
Which superpower would you back?
US have destroyed a Hospital in Afghanistan
And yet the media haven't asked David Cameron whether he will condemn the American airstrike on a hospital.
So why haven't they asked him ? ........ I'm sure they would very interested in David Cameron's opinion if it had been a Russian or Syria airstrike on hospital.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34463901
Belarus taking the opportunity to try and distance itself whilst it has the chance?
We're moving troops on a 'Long Term' mission (semi permanently apparently) to the Baltic Sates....so yeah, welcome to "Cold War" part 2
or will be a re-imagining of the original?
Sadly nickc, I think this one will be more confusing, with more 'sides' taken than us and them. I also reckon it is only a matter of months/weeks before we have an 'accident' leading to either 'us' and Russia having direct weapons contact - plane shot down, bombing of ground forces etc. 😕
It looks like just a matter of time before Turkey shoots down a Russian plane violating it's airspace, NATO will have to support them to so it just comes down to what Putin's reaction will be. He can't really attack Turkey directly (he's not ready for that big of an escalation yet) but he can't do nothing either without looking weak domestically, that probably leaves getting Syria to shoot down a Turkish plane 'accidentally'
that probably leaves getting Syria to shoot down a Turkish plane 'accidentally'
All unauthorized NATO warplanes entering Syrian airspace are violating international law and can be legally shot down.
As an aside this seems a perfect, in a nutshell quote from politicians involved in supplying weapons to fight "wars" that don't need fighting:
Shortly before the death of Alan Clark, who under Thatcher was the minister responsible for supplying Suharto with most of his weapons, I interviewed him, and asked: "Did it bother you personally that you were causing such mayhem and human suffering?""No, not in the slightest," he replied. "It never entered my head."
"I ask the question because I read you are a vegetarian and are seriously concerned with the way animals are killed."
"Yeah?"
"Doesn't that concern extend to humans?"
"Curiously not."
From [url= http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2008/jan/28/indonesia.world ]The Guardian - Our model dictator by John Pilger[/url]
It makes me chuckle how Thatcher keeps being quoted, Indonesia, supplying arms, how blinkered is he who who have failed to accept that Labour walked us straight into Iraq and Afghanistan. The powers that be have managed to topple the powers that be, Saddam was aptly nicknamed the butcher of Baghdad.
We invaded Iraq under Thatcher / Major to overthrow him and all hell broke loose, has anyone stopped to think just why he was keeping the numbers down. Then as if there wasn't enough instability in the region Ghadafi got the good news and that whole region went into turmoil, Egypt, and now we are trying to topple Assad.
It's true what they say you can't teach stupid people to do clever things. And whilst in our own Country one party does one thing and another the other if the truth be told they are no different from each other. They are in it for themselves whether you choose to accept that is up to you but Corbyn is the most vile excuse for a human being that has ever been awarded any hope of power and will quite happily steer the UK into total destruction, we wouldn't last a weekend with the likes of Putin out there whilst Corbyn runs ragged in his sandals topping up the vases in number 10 with Daisy's and daffodils. Dave is trying his damdest to create Little Britain in the hope that he can create what his parents view of Great Britain should be.
I'm with the afore mentioned quotes and would quite happily Nuke the lot. At least that way we could empty the Armoury ready for Corbyn, save him having to dispose of it.
We did not invade Irag under Thatcher/Major/Bush. We invaded Kuwait to remove the Iraq army. Some would say that the failure to remove Sadam during the first Gulf war was a mistake. What definitely was a mistake was going back for another go.
OP s question, we are at war with Russia, just because we believe we are not does not mean that Putin is not at war with us. It's all looking a bit Cold War to me.
Just waiting for Israel to shoot down a Russian plane violating its airspace or blow up a weapons convoy in Syria just to complicate this a little bit more.
Note: When Israeli planes blew up that secret Syrian chemical/nuclear site a few years back Turkey was a strangely silent on them entering its airspace to do it?
Just been catching up on this thread. Syria is a classic example of the complexity / mess of the Middle East
Russia is supporting its ally, Syria at Syria's request. It's perfectly entitled to bomb anyone threatening the government. The overflight over Turkey was absolutely deliberate IMO, the Turks are not going to shoot at a Russian warplane. The Russians have a navy base in Syria, they are not going to permit the government to fall without a very big fight. The news has had a number of videos of Syrian "rebels" with US anti-tank weapons destroying Syrian tanks, the Russians aren't going to allow that. Russia isn't messing about, they are not bound by "public outcry" they have troops and equipment on the ground.
All unauthorized NATO warplanes entering Syrian airspace are violating international law and can be legally shot down
My assumption is "back channel" communication with Assad means NATO strikes are authorised on IS. He gave a TV interview months ago where he spoke of communication am co-ordination with the US. Much like the US co-ordination with Iran over fighting IS in Iraq
Turkey is pursuing its interest by bombing the Kurds in both Syria and Iraq, they don't really care about IS, turning a blind eye to 30,000+ jihadists crossing into Syria, turning a blind eye to IS oil sales to Turks. The Turks have been trying to pressurise the West by allowing the refugees to leave un-obstructed, they have been pushing for a no fly zone from the West over the Kurdish territory as they want to weaken the Kurds by stopping allied bombing of IS there.
Well, after days of complaining that Russian aircraft have been entering its Air Zone uninvited, Turkey had just shot down an unidentified Aircraft.
This won't end well.
The Turks violate Greek airspace on a daily basis so their complaints now are monstrous hypocrisy.
thats not good, even assuming its russian military and not a passenger jet
edit, apparently a drone
test of Putin and NATO....
im guessing Turkey will be looking for a new gas supplier this winter, too
Small wager the Russians did this deliberately as a test. Drones are cheap and you don't risk a pilot. Putin will up the stakes further I'd imagine, more resources into Syria ? More threats in the Baltic ? I don't think they'll suspend gas supplies as they need the money.
Turkey is playing a very strange game, demanding €3bn, travel freedoms for their own citizens and a re-opening of EU membership discussions to slow down the flood of refugees to Greece. I wonder how much of that €3bn will be skimmed off by the government - 25% isn't unusual we saw that in Sri Lanka after the Tsunami. Glad their request for a no flow zone over the Kurds to prevent Nato assisting them was turned down.
By the way how do you "warn" a drone ?
I don't think they'll suspend gas supplies as they need the money
thats the bonkers thing
could end up with russia & turkey be engaged in a limited war but still trading partners
Drone is a bit grand, it looks like an average RC plane you see down at the park on a Sunday, given how small it is its a good effort to shoot it down with a jet 8)
[url= http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/16/turkey-shoots-down-drone-near-syrian-border#img-1 ]Guardain Link[/url]
jambalaya - MemberDrone is a bit grand, it looks like an average RC plane you see down at the park on a Sunday, given how small it is its a good effort to shoot it down with a jet
Guardain Link
Yeah looks like they knocked it over rather than shot it down!
Anyway in my experience (of watching TopGun) shouldn't have it exploded in a huge fireball? There seems very little damager considering it crashed, never mind got dealt with by a F14 Tomcat (again, TopGun being my only point of reference).
Military Drones aren't all massive reaper sized things, that's pretty hefty compared to some:
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(again, TopGun being my only point of reference)
You insinuate Top Gun isn't real.
I won't listen to this blasphemy.
Goose? Is that you Goose?
New medical director at work is 30yrs military, been the head GP for the entire UK forces, running the UK's middle East medical ops in recent years and worked and advised with NATO....he spent a day with me before he got the job, we talked recent Afghan/Iraq matters and risk to the UK....he corrected me and pointed out that Russia is still the main threat.
His opinion was that Putin is genuinely dangerous, Russia is still hurting decades after the break up of the USSR and that the Ukraine events is a Russian test on expansion again and how the EU will respond....his opinion is that Putin/Russia only respects strength and negotiating with him is as good as a green light to continue....he said keep US and UK forces in Germany and park a load of nukes there too....it worked in the past and he reckons it'd work again.
He thinks talks of getting rid of our nuclear deterrent is nuts and effectively waves the white flag to Putin. This was from a military man so it will have his spin on it but what was terrifying was that he says MPs are well advised on Russian military movements and don't seem that bothered!....the military are aware of increased Russian excursions into UK airspace and advise politicians accordingly....and they seem more concerned with other matters, he said it's part of the reason he wants out, lost faith in MPs to keep us safe!...it was an eye opening day.
A tragic loss of life
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-34687139
Even if it is not linked to Russia's activity in the gulf, I imagine it will result in an escalation of the conflict
Why?
Conflict seems to be a necessary part of human nature, its just a matter of time untill there's another big one...
I see the Ministry Of Truth in Russia has been busy - a technical fault/nothing to see here ladies and gentlemen/the worlds fastest investigated air crash.
According to bbc news IS have claimed responsibility.
And according to BBC News, IS don't have anything capable of reaching the height the airliner was flying at.
