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The amount of very expensive cars with racks, parked in any nearby layby of any popular MTB trail head is shameful.
if there was any sense that money actually went back into the trails then I think there would be a lot less of this.
if there was any sense that money actually went back into the trails then I think there would be a lot less of this.
That's just a Catch-22 argument.
"Oh the trails are shit, I'm not paying to park and ride."
Next trail centre management meeting:
"revenue from our car parking is down 20% even though usage remains constant, we need to put the prices up and we also have insufficient funds this quarter to drain / resurface The Gnarpoon Trail".
Repeat ad infinitum.
I'd rather see access reform in England and Wales, thus potentially opening up thousands of miles of natural trail previously not accessible (well, not officially anyway). This would open up more options from everybody's front door, rather than having to jump in a car and have its newness and cost judged by a fellow biker.
That’s just a Catch-22 argument.
“Oh the trails are shit, I’m not paying to park and ride.”
Next trail centre management meeting:
“revenue from our car parking is down 20% even though usage remains constant, we need to put the prices up and we also have insufficient funds this quarter to drain / resurface The Gnarpoon Trail”.Repeat ad infinitum.
It's also how any business works, people won't pay if the product doesn't feel worth it. If you link parking revenue to trail maintenance, then it is a business and a product.
If you don't link them, then the argument over people not paying it becomes invalid anyway.
I don’t think it’s a lack of money but how it is spent. Many trail centres have spent huge amounts of money on new trails and facilities but they aren’t aimed at mountain bikers. They are aimed at family days out
Cost / benefit analysis I guess.
An adventure playground and signposted 1/3/5mile walking routes on existing paths probably brings in a lot more income (car parking, and cafe takings) and costs a lot less to build and maintain than a million pound 20km cycling trail.
If the aim is for these places to be self funding then that's going to be what gets built.
Swinley trails might be busy, but there's a longer queue of kids for the slides and mums for coffee than there is for Babymaker. Which is a surprise as Babymaker is great, and the coffee is awful.
If you don’t link them, then the argument over people not paying it becomes invalid anyway.
It'd be interesting to see how well a contactless "honesty box" pay station mounted at the trailhead would do if it was ringfenced for trailbuilding and maintenance.
Probably about as well as the STW 'honesty box' classifieds did.
Which is a surprise as Babymaker is great, and the coffee is awful.
🤣🤣🤣
It’d be interesting to see how well a contactless “honesty box” pay station mounted at the trailhead would do if it was ringfenced for trailbuilding and maintenance.
Not many would truly believe it would be ring fenced or spent appropriately. Honesty has to work both ways.
An adventure playground and signposted 1/3/5mile walking routes on existing paths probably brings in a lot more income (car parking, and cafe takings) and costs a lot less to build and maintain than a million pound 20km cycling trail.
Om sure that’s true. But then I guess they shouldn’t be surprised when riders park elsewhere for free. If there is no direct link between parking revenue and trail maintenance and expansion then why pay just to park a car when I can do that for free. It’s not taking any revenue away that would be spent on hat I am there to use. Look at somewhere like llandegla. There is a clear link between the charge and trail maintenance. The car park is al2ays rammed and whilst I’m sure there are some places to park for free nearby it’s not many.
Merthyr Tydfil A+E dept with the “BPW wing”?
I don’t think BPW got development funding? But in Happy to accept the sums work less well for uplift facilities.
I don’t think it’s a lack of money but how it is spent. Many trail centres have spent huge amounts of money on new trails and facilities but they aren’t aimed at mountain bikers. They are aimed at family days out
Is the mountain bike family day out divide clearly defined. Most of my trail centre rides have envolved a family
if there was any sense that money actually went back into the trails then I think there would be a lot less of this.
So does are T6 owner think that the trails grew? I saw this a Landegla on my last visit. Do you think the T6 thought my parking fee didn’t pay for some one to go out with a chain saw that morning and clear the trail?
Not many would truly believe it would be ring fenced or spent appropriately. Honesty has to work both ways.
Certainly at Swinley there's been a grievance between those that wanted trails and those that wanted a 'bike park', especially in the aftermath of all the budget and manpower being put into the "freeride" area. And it still feels like the "XC" loop (i.e the old Seagull) gets ignored in favor of more interesting projects and anything that's on a straight line between the carpark and clubhouse.
Maybe they need a pay point at both the start of the blue and another at clubhouse 😂
if there was any sense that money actually went back into the trails then I think there would be a lot less of this.
It costs a fair bit of money just to maintain a car park. I never cease to be amazed at how resistant people are to paying for parking. Most trail centre parking charges are hardly expensive compared to the other costs of the sport - nearly all of these are less than a pint of beer to park all day.
When you see cars in the lay-bys near CwmCarn it is kind of taking the piss (even if just the impact on locals)
- Afan. £3.50 all day
- Cwm Carn £3 all day
- Glentress £6 all day
- Swinley 4hrs £3.60, all day £7.20
- Forest of Dean All day £8
The only place I really think is hugely expensive for what's on offer is Thetford Forest - £12 for 4 hours, £15 all day.
A multi-use approach to the areas appears to work better - though not perfectly, I'll admit. I live very close to Haldon, which is FC land, and probably does help that it has their regional office & depot on site. It's probably one of the few trail networks that sees both reasonable levels of maintenance and the addition of occasional new all-weather trails. No doubt this is funded by the fact that the forest park is very definitely multi-use, with walking onlu, multi-use and bike only trails, along with kiddy friendly skills area and pump track, decent playgrounds, permanent orienteering markers, a go-ape, bike hire, segway tours and a good cafe. Car park is always packed in the school holidays and at the weekends - though there are always cars and vans parked in the numerous free laybys, etc - don't know how you'd ever control that though. At least the road along the top of the ridge is now a clear-way which has deterred a lot of the parking fee dodgers. They're also puttin gin ANPR cameras in the car park itself to help enforce payment. They did go the wrong way several years ago with the price of daily parking, but it seems to have become reasonable again now, and the season ticket is ridiculous value if you're up there as little as once a month.
and the season ticket is ridiculous value if you’re up there as little as once a month.
My sister has a season ticket for Dalby (she's about 15-20 minutes away from there), works out as really good VfM. Good way of getting more use and more visits to a facility for a one-off payment - you kind of feel you have to visit to make the most of the up-front investment!
I do love the fact that the OP lives in Peebles and is complaining about money being spent building new trail centres. I live in Tayside and as far as forestry built facilities we have a tiny one line jump park and a small community woodland loop in Alyth and the same in Dundee. Next nearest is Tarland in Aberdeenshire but that was hugely self funded. Definitely agree that’s what’s really needed is more accessible facilities in towns and cities, not mtb theme parks.
There are not enough trails for bikes only. We need more trails that don't allow dogs or walkers.
I do love the fact that the OP lives in Peebles
Made me chuckle too, the only place I've been in England that feels any way comparable (i.e. an absolute abundance of user built trails) are the Surrey Hills.
A bit like the tread on Peak District trailbuilding and having to point out to TJ that almost 4x more people lived within an hour of those trails than in the entirety of Scotland. If the rest of the UK was to have the same trail density as Scotland we'd need a Tweed Valley / Glentress in every county.
"I do love the fact that the OP lives in Peebles and is complaining about money being spent building new trail centres."
I'm questioning whether new trails (and that includes Glentress/Innerleithen) are actually needed given the state of what we already have across the country. Having a quick look at the 7stanes website and seeing the enormous list of trail closures/diversions due to damage is frankly depressing. The money spent at GT has gone to the wrong place and a fraction of that could have made a huge difference to ALL of the trail centres where repairs are needed. I rode last night at GT and even the new trails are badly in need of some work in places already.
I don’t think BPW got development funding?
They did via the Cognation project. There was a bit of bad feeling at the time about how much of the available pot they got, the old 'Shiny new project' vs maintenance and upgrades at Cwmcarn and Afan.
Afan. £3.50 all day
It’s very clear that less than 0.001p of which is spent on maintaining the trails. Half of blade as been closed for years
The money spent at GT has gone to the wrong place and a fraction of that could have made a huge difference to ALL of the trail centres where repairs are needed
I would agree the amount spent on the world champs at the site for what little legacy has remained open is a ridiculous waste of money
I’m questioning whether new trails (and that includes Glentress/Innerleithen) are actually needed given the state of what we already have across the country. Having a quick look at the 7stanes website and seeing the enormous list of trail closures/diversions due to damage is frankly depressing. The money spent at GT has gone to the wrong place and a fraction of that could have made a huge difference to ALL of the trail centres where repairs are needed. I rode last night at GT and even the new trails are badly in need of some work in places already.
I do get what you mean, but would maintenance have attracted the same number of visitors that the new trails have? I haven’t been to GT for years but know plenty of people who have visited for the first time in years because of the new trails. I see how it annoys you if the whole trail network is getting rougher and rougher when they’re your local trails but for the once/twice a year visitor I’m not sure it’s such a big deal. Let’s not forget, these big trail centres are built to attract out of area visitors, not for locals. Look at Aberdeenshire, there was always people travelling for biking but there are so many more now after the work of ATA. If even just a small amount of these visitors spend money in the local area, that’s a big help to rural communities.
"I see how it annoys you if the whole trail network is getting rougher and rougher"
It's nothing to do with becoming rougher or about being local (TBH I spend more time riding Perthshire than the Tweed Valley), it's more that trails and features are being closed for maintenance and not reopened. So many trails are out of action due to fallen trees. And that's everywhere, not just Tweed Valley.
As for the new trails attracting people back, GT is probably quieter than its been in years and businesses have been and are suffering as a result. Do as I suggested and have a look at how many of the 7 stanes are closed or diverted just now.
https://forestryandland.gov.scot/visit/activities/mountain-biking/7stanes
I'll repeat- if only a fraction of the funds for new trails at GT were diverted towards repair...
Catch up at Enjoyro Evo if there's no MacRetro rides this year?
It’s very clear that less than 0.001p of which is spent on maintaining the trails. Half of blade as been closed for years
That's mostly due to a mix of harvesting and disease though isn't it? Money won't solve that, it just takes time (and some money for reinstatement once the harvesting is done).
And the rest is just the right sort of bedded-in / roughed-up IMO.
Either way, the trails are still great. Went there in January and although it's a bit of a pain to piece together a route, once you've figured one out there's enough for a long day out (or two).
What they really need to do (and would be low cost compared to actually putting spades in the ground) is just issue an updated trail map showing what's open and rideable.
Catch up at Enjoyro Evo if there’s no MacRetro rides this year?
Aye, tend just to be doing our own thing with the Fife guys. Fed up of posting rides that no one else showed up for.
As for the new trails attracting people back, GT is probably quieter than its been in years and businesses have been and are suffering as a result. Do as I suggested and have a look at how many of the 7 stanes are closed or diverted just now.
Do you think? I was there a couple of weeks ago and the new (much larger) car park was getting on for full. Im sure thats more people than would have been there between the old car park and buzzards nest. The rest of the 7 stanes is a mess though. Even Ae which is open has been subject to a half baked update.
"Do you think? "
Absolutely, although I'm mostly seeing a lack of cheeky parking around the Hydro and much quieter trails away from the new stuff. There was certainly loads of riders around when the new stuff opened, but that even that has fallen away. And with the Buzzards and Janets Brae closures people riding the western off-piste stuff tend to go in via Soonhope, but that's quiet too.
There was certainly loads of riders around when the new stuff opened, but that even that has fallen away.
Could it just be that the weather is a bit shit? I was thinking about going up there next weekend but it just looks like constant rain. 🙁
I'd like to enter the Glentress 7 but I want to ride the place before committing to an entry!
I have not lived anywhere where you cant put together an urban/country mix trail that are ridable from the door
It wont be Morzine but theres plenty of scope to push yourself in your immediate environment
On sale now - Local - Alastair Humphreys
is a novel way of looking at the familiar
That’s mostly due to a mix of harvesting and disease though isn’t it?
At Glyncorrwg all the parking money goes to the fishing club, it's only at Afan itself that a small amount goes towards the trails and even then most of the work is done by volunteers. The local council runs the machines so they get most of the money. Same thing at Cwmcarn, the car park is run by the council so no money goes direct to the trails.
"Could it just be that the weather is a bit shit?"
Nah, its very much an ongoing trend.
GT7 course won't be out for a while, I'd imagine it'll include some of the easier new trails though- beyond that the route will be guesswork
joe-m
Full Memberif there was any sense that money actually went back into the trails then I think there would be a lot less of this.
And this is one of the things I mentioned earlier. The money may or may not go back into the trails- in fact, we hardly ever really know- but why is that relevant? The trails already exist and weren't paid for with parking money. Take Glentress as an example, there's millions of pounds of investment just to build the trails in the first place, they will never recoup that investment.
And so not only is talking about money "going back into the trails" missing the point, it's counterproductive, it basically fosters a false dialogue, disregards the huge upfront expense and value added there, and ends up accidentally being a slap in the face for the people and orgs who actually spend the money. If I was an FC bidget setter hearing about this stuff I'd be thinking, *ing pisstaking mountain bikers".
We benefit massively and constantly from the fact that there's a big bucket to pay for things, and we complain bitterly when our little drops get put back into that big bucket.
The problem is basically the "any sense" part, inasmuch as people think about this at all they tend to get it wrong, and come to conclusions based on minimal information. Few people have a real understanding of the costs of the builds, of how much goes into the dirt and into the maintenance, how long stuff takes. I mean, people in general are pretty bad at dealing with big numbers, it's the same reason our understanding of public finance or the cost of living crisis is so often absolute bollocks.
And to be fair I do think that the FC and other owners and builders could be smarter about this, and other things, they could do more user education and help foster a better understanding. Similar to trail wear. Get some public info posters up, some articles in the bike mags, "only you can prevent forest fires" stuff. People like knowing about their hobbies. If I was Bike Park Wales, or whoever, I'd have massive * off posters in the cafe and at the bus stops explaining why you should stay on the trails, explaining how much went into that surface you're skidding on, etc. I always wanted to get a big glass case and fill it with a demo of what an armoured trail looks like under the ground.
Out with the new trails, Glentress is quiet, which I'm guessing is mostly to do with the current diversions around the lodges work site, and the felling, which means people are just avoiding the whole area.
Unless you know the other ways around what is a key area for linking a lot of the older stuff up, you're not likely to have a very good ride there. And it's about to get worse next week, as another key fire road is going to be out of action for felling for a few weeks.
However I have noticed that even the Golfie has been fairly quiet the few times I've been there lately, which again I'm guessing is a combination of closures/diversions.
@nortwimd + 1
I was trying to get motivated for a similar post but just didn’t have the patience. You said exactly what I wanted to
I can honestly say every time I’ve ridden a a trail centre, particularly a big one like Coed y Brenin I’m just astonished what is provided for free. I’m happy to pay for the parking as the cost of parking. Yet still people moan about it or expect continual improvement. If you don’t like it then don’t go.
I think that it might help that many years ago I paid with a mate to drive off road in his landrover. I’ve just checked the price now is £30 for the vehicle £10 per additional driver £2 per passenger. That’s to drive round an area with no tail construction. Just some mud under trees of about the same size as coed y Brenin car park with similar terrain in terms of elevation.
Compare that to £7 to park all day at coed y Brenin. Family of 4 people in one car that’s £1.75 each! They even provide walks for my wife with the dog. An hour in the local pool is over £5 each the cinema can easily be over £10 these days.
Well I'm giving up two days holiday to go run 2 dig days at Gisburn today and tomorrow repairing a particularly muddy section that in part was built by contractors and has failed and a section built 30 years ago. The recreational ranger will be there with is but we're training her at the moment.
Anyway we will probably be castigated for sanitising the slop later.
Never ceases to amaze me how few riders ever put in a single shift on the trails, but they've all got opinions, as Northwond says mainly based on little to no understanding of the work that goes into trail constructio or politics that goes on.
I definitely don't think there are 'too many' pro built trails. But maintenance of them is a serious shortfall, which comes back to funding, insurance etc.
Where there *are* too many trails is a lot of trail pixie/cheeky trail areas where someone has added 'yet another rad new line' down the same bit of hill, crossing over existing trails, rather than doing work to repair/maintain what's there already. A bit of extra work to cover over/block the trails or lines that are blown out (and let them return to nature) makes the new lines more obvious and better to ride, and minimises the visual impact which is usually what really winds up the angry brigade.
OTOH there's actually a really good argument for continuous building and abandonment. Five Year Plan at Glentress was built as an experiment on those lines- instead of trying to keep ancient trails in good condition, while also handling the "it's old and boring" "now it's too sanitised" "something changed and NOTHING WILL EVER BE GOOD AGAIN", they decided to see what happened if we built a relatively quick, tough but unarmoured trail without compromising much for longterm. Meant it's a lot steeper than we'd normally build (because steep means wear) and while it was well built it's all just as-dug, not a gram of imported material. It's been allowed to evolve and change and only had minor repairs and modifications where it was needed.
And then, once it got clapped out, we'd just build another one and close it.
It kind of failed dismally as an experiment, partly because there was one eye on having it officially replace the old Boundary Trail, and in the end we kinda made it too hard for that, it's way out of "glentress black" grade. So it never had main-trail traffic. And it just lasted so much better than expected, we built it for the 2014 EWS and as the name suggests, 5 years was the expectation. It's a bit up in the air right now because of wind damage, as is the boundary as a whole.
But as an alternative for "make it so well armoured it lasts forever" and "dig it up completely and resurface it every so often" there's a lot going for it. It allows a fuller trail lifecycle too. Especially since the construction method means it barely leaves a mark.
Or, take Falla Brae at Glentress as a counterpoint. Very very old, and now at a point where it's just really difficult to keep it in good shape, while also retaining its character. Cornercutting's a constant, drainage is really difficult, and the nature of the trail means it's really hard to restore (basically, fixing a trail mostly means digging it up and building another bit of trail that hopefully feels the same, and that's really hard to do with teh more natural feeling stuff) The new ending that's been put on it since the worlds is really good, better really than what was there before but it feels really intrusive to a lot of people. If it wasn't for the good game blue taking traffic off it, it'd be far worse. But now, with teh new alternative descent it'll probably do much better. People who like that sort of thing will ride it, people who like new school and going as fast as you can will do the twitcher.
What a timely thread. Time to have your say.
https://dmbins.com/blog/uk-trails-project-we-need-your-help
Under the DMBINS banner but they're looking for input from everywhere in the UK.