[Closed] Apple Pay

Nothing is that secure, everything can be broken.

?? No I was replying to posts like this

Not unless you chop off the owners thumb too, it requires a finger print.

after 3 days out somewhere it still works

It's not for that though is it? Day to day, just carrying the phone, which I would do anyway will be enough. It's not anything to do with Apple Pay either really, only it's the first version getting some traction, and happens to be the phone I use. I used one of those stick on touch pay things for a while, that was an OK solution, just not as elegant. Once I had a contactless card reissued I reverted to using that, so I might with Apple Pay too, we'll see.

Lets face it, contactless cards are useless in about 90% of the world anyway. I include Dorset in that.

when apple 'invent' wireless charging then there might well be charging points in shops

itd be nice if there was a google pay on my nexus, but its not that slick with my card, as said above it certainly isnt universal yet
my QI phone cradle in the car however is pretty darn sweet id say at least a 2.5% improvement

It's not for that though is it? Day to day, just carrying the phone, which I would do anyway will be enough.

It'll probably replace my debit card as soon as I can confirm can get cash back if required.

Having got off planes with a flat phone after an international flight and needing a taxi my cards remain king. Any here in tassie I can use contactless in about 90% of places I go to.

I'm so dizzy with fapp'idge about this I can hardly tyyypppppppeee........ 😆

lol not really just I passed on the kool aid...

You are the Kool Aid. Now step away from the Internet and go get yourself a hug...

sorry I meant I pissed in the kool aid...

It's still you.

right I apologise for daring to suggest that every turd from apple isn't gold plated (and patented) contactless payment is a good idea, on your phone great, incorporate things like Oyster and other transit cards, add in some limits as the security won't be any better than pay pass etc. don't give up your cards just yet as when your phone dies and it's your round don't expect much sympathy. I guess I read stuff and responded to what people said. Perhaps I should just go home.

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Perhaps I should just go home.

You're just unnecessarily annoyed at all of your own assumptions, which you're projecting into anyone who owns an Apple product. It's not rational.

OK OK
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It's a perfect tech, it's 100% secure, it will be fine when my phone went flat as people have suggested...

This is only an amazing revoutionary thing if you're an Apple user. Because, everything Apple do is an amazing revolutionary thing if you're an Apple user 🙂

Oh, here's the other one. Would it worked if you hugged each other? No 'special' hugs, though! Who knows what beast that might create!

It's a perfect tech, it's 100% secure, it will be fine when my phone went flat as people have suggested...

Apparently the number of fraudulent transactions using Apple Pay when it launched in the USA was quite high. It turned out this was mostly people stealing or cloning the physical card and adding it to their own Apple Pay. So the weakest point in Apple Pay appears to be the physical card your bank still send you. Oh the ironing.

As for flat batteries. Most modern phones have such huge batteries due to them being incredibly power hungry that if you just turn off the power hungy bits they will last for ages. My iPhone 6 will last for about 4/5 days if I just use it as a phone and for texting and turn off 3g/4g/WiFi etc.

But I don't think anyone is claiming you can ditch your plastic cards yet, just that Apple Pay is a neat way to pay now, probably trumps contactless for ease if you have the required kit and will definately trump contactless and chip and pin once the transaction limit is removed by the retailers.

not at all but my debit card works if it's charged or not, after 3 days out somewhere it still works, I'll not be swapping mine for mobile payment at any time soon.

Hmm ... nobody suggested doing that - just using a new method of payment when it's more convenient to do so.

I've
Gone
Blind
😐

DrJ - Member

[i]not at all but my debit card works if it's charged or not, after 3 days out somewhere it still works, I'll not be swapping mine for mobile payment at any time soon.[/i]

[b]Hmm ... nobody suggested doing that - just using a new method of payment when it's more convenient to do so.[/b]

Erm, I think someone did though.....

brassneck - Member

It'll probably replace my debit card as soon as I can confirm can get cash back if required.

which was the comment mikewsmith was referring to (I believe) when he said he wouldn't ditch his cards for mobile payment anytime soon....

An Apple thread without mikewsmith's contribution would be really, really nice.

Erm, I think someone did though....

Uff. My mishtake ... 🙁

and [s]will definately[/s] may trump contactless and chip and pin [s]once[/s] if the transaction limit is removed by the retailers

An Apple thread without mikewsmith's contribution would be really, really nice.

I wouldn't say 'contribution' is the right choice of word.....

Erm, I think someone did though.....

brassneck - Member
It'll probably replace my debit card as soon as I can confirm can get cash back if required.

which was the comment mikewsmith was referring to (I believe) when he said he wouldn't ditch his cards for mobile payment anytime soon....

He was referring to that, by coming up with the suggestion that it would be stupid to travel internationally with only a phone and no cards or cash. 🙄

As this involves expenditure by the retailer on new terminals don't hold your breath as they may struggle to see why they should upgrade as it's not really going to increase turnover.

Living in Denmark I didn't use cash from one week's end to the next. I'm not sure if that was because the banks charged less for card transactions, or if it was a virtuous circle thing, where retailers that didn't accept cards got fewer customers. Either way, I'm surprised (not really) by the number of retailers here that don't accept cards, or make a charge for card use. A major gripe is taxis - you need to have up to 50 quid in cash when you get in the car. No wonder Uber is killing them.

But I don't think anyone is claiming you can ditch your plastic cards yet, just that Apple Pay is a neat way to pay now, probably trumps contactless for ease if you have the required kit and will definately trump contactless and chip and pin once the transaction limit is removed by the retailers.

I think the banks will want a few more guarantees before they start lifting the limits - credit cards may not be 100% secure, but the banks understand them and can calibrate the risk. Apple Pay is new, and generally speaking banks don't like new things.

A major gripe is taxis - you need to have up to 50 quid in cash when you get in the car. No wonder Uber is killing them.

Plenty of cabs take cards now, particularly in London, I agree though, I rarely use cash for anything.

I'm certainly sufficiently intrigued by this to have signed up today, although I've not gone to any participating shops to actually try it.

Mike - your frothing is rather odd. FWIW someone did hack the fingerprint scanner on an iPhone 5S by taking a latex 'copy' of a finger print lifted from a glass. To say its down to nothing more than luck seems really stupid. I'm also intrigued by his easy peasy software hack. No one is claiming its infallible, but I'd say it's a lot more secure than you seem to think.

I'll definitely use it, have been using the contactess on my debt card a lot including on the tube/busses.

One key problem with biometric authentication is what you do once it's compromised. It's easy to replace a plastic card, PIN or password. Less easy to replace your fingerprint, eye or face 🙂

Mobile has been touted as the next big thing in payments for nearly ten years now, one of the key challenges being nothing in payments is any good for the consumer unless it works in every shop they go to and everytime they pay ie. at scale. It also has to be better than what they do now. Note that cash still makes up 52% of transactions in UK despite 20+ years of debit cards and longer for credit.

There's a lot of people playing in mobile payments right now, the opportunity to get hold of our offline purchase data is too valuable an opportunity to pass up. Apple Pay may or may not be the holy grail of mobile payments but their brand is so powerful that they are likely to be a catalyst for new momentum...

Bugger Halifax isn't live yet.

Erm, I think someone did though.....

brassneck - Member
It'll probably replace my debit card as soon as I can confirm can get cash back if required.

which was the comment mikewsmith was referring to (I believe) when he said he wouldn't ditch his cards for mobile payment anytime soon....

Maybe I should have added 'day to day' to that. Thought I had. I already have a phone case/wallet with the bare minimum in it, would be nice to use any case I liked rather than one I can fit 2 cards and a tenner in most days.
As it took me 20 minutes to get a taxi from Dublin airport that took a card I think I'll be travelling with cash and cards for some time yet.

Less easy to replace your fingerprint, eye or face

Use a different finger. Maybe use nail varnish to remember which one 🙂

This is only an amazing revoutionary thing if you're an Apple user. Because, everything Apple do is an amazing revolutionary thing if you're an Apple user

Nobody's Apple fappin' about it, but I'm not aware of an Android / Windows phone equivalent live on the high street (for some users) right now. So you sort of have to mention Apple.

Oh actually bikebouy is ... sorry, my mistake,as you were 🙂

Bugger Halifax isn't live yet.

I'm sure most of the locals will be relieved...

I'm sure most of the locals will be relieved...

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Just used it, Morrisons have a £20 upper limit but I was only paying a fiver.

Works well, it's as quick as it is in the demos which isn't always the case.

The fingerprint took a little longer than unlocking my phone, perhaps they're extra careful with it?

Strangely Barclays haven't signed up for it yet but Barclaycard have. But Barclaycard have just released a bPay watch/band and a key fob too..

Bit strange IMO, shall have to ask around..

I paid using my watch in M&S this morning, paying by phone is already old hat.

sharkbait - Member
Apparently contactless cards (and chip/pin) are pretty rare in the US

You still sign over there and they never look at the signature. Most restaurants you give them the card, they go away, come back with receipt and you sign and leave. "gas" stations you can just put in the card and done. Though some ask for a pin or zip code but seems to be linked to debit cards I think. Never seems to work with a UK credit card.

jfletch - Member
You just get your phone out of your pocket and hold it over the NFC terminal

Barclaycard sent me some NFC stickers I can put on the back of my phone. Does the same job except the phone battery could be dead and will still work. 😉

Fair point on higher transaction limit but that's not happening until there's trust in the system and banks can lift the limit.

Though what happens every 5th time and it demands you insert the card instead and enter the PIN, as I have to with contactless cards? 😉

jfletch - Member
As for flat batteries. Most modern phones have such huge batteries due to them being incredibly power hungry that if you just turn off the power hungy bits they will last for ages. My iPhone 6 will last for about 4/5 days if I just use it as a phone and for texting and turn off 3g/4g/WiFi etc

Just the problem you need a phone far bigger than your pocket size to fit such a battery.

A Lumia (yeah yeah, Windows Phone) on the other hand, everything turned on, phone fits in the pocket, battery lasts days, and no one wants to nick it. And yes, does NFC payments also if you have the right SIM.

P.S. Anyone know if Apple's thing works on the tube and London buses in place of Oyster? I know some of the other's do (EE/Orange's does at least).

Anyone know if Apple's thing works on the tube and London buses in place of Oyster?

Yes it does.

Interesting bit on batteries for the normal NFC (non Apple) phones, e.g. from EE, their Cash on Tap (yeah sorry Apple, you didn't get there first) mentions...

"How does Cash on Tap work when my phone is off/battery is flat?

The Cash on Tap service will work even when your phone is switched off or your battery is low. It is only when your battery is completely flat that the service will not work. All transactions will be recorded on your account which you can see once you've accessed your Cash on Tap app or the online account."

(noting this isn't EE's feature, this is stock industry standard feature of NFC having the antenna in the battery, and has done for years now).

Also interesting is with EE's (and again maybe this is a stock phone feature) you can set it to request a PIN for transactions allowing greater than £20 where terminals will allow it. However they do say "Note: It's advisable not to use this feature when making payments on the TfL network."

So yeah, you don't want to be the guy behind someone with an NFC phone while they faff with it at a barrier on the tube 😉

Not sure Apple Pay has the same facility. Likewise can you use it with the phone powered off, given it has to have access to the wallet stuff in the phone, whereas the industry standard way just needs the NFC chip and valid payment SIM as authorisation.

Thanks to the OP for posting this thread. I'd been waiting for this to come live but they kept it a bit quiet I reckon and I missed it.
Anyway, signed up (NatWest) and used it for the first time today. In 10 years time we'll all be paying like this, no question. It's fantastic.

Likewise can you use it with the phone powered off, given it has to have access to the wallet stuff in the phone, whereas the industry standard way just needs the NFC chip and valid payment SIM as authorisation.

Doesn't the iPhone use fingerprint recognition to authorise the payment, so therefore no worky without power

Yep, that's how it works right now - But it doesn't have to, Apple could change that.

The thing to remeber is Apple Pay was primarily developed for the USA where chip and pin isn't a thing and contactless is basically non existant. So Apple pay is replacing swiping a magnitic strip and signing something. It's a huge leap.

For us technophiles in Europe where we have had chip and pin for decades and contactless is widespread, Apple pay is a small refinement. This means the fingerprint for <£20 spends is either a nice extra security enhancement or an unnecessary faff depending on your perspective. Technically it would be easy for Apple/Banks/Retailers to impliment a Euro variant of Apply Pay where the phone behaves exactly like a containtless card below the spend limit (i.e. battery off, no fingerprint) but require a fingerprint for higher transaction limits.

But since it's a USA focused system that hasn't been done. This is both a good and a bad thing. Good because it being a success in the USA will give it viability long term, bad because it's not quite as good as it could be here. But it will get better.

And graphene batteries will last months on a 1 min charge as well! Bring on the future.