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They went to a lot of trouble to protect the structural steelwork so they wouldn't need to go inside and repaint due to radiation but what about having to change the ropes, sheaves and drums on the cranes? We have to change our (wire) ropes every two years on our Demag overhead cranes at work.
I guess they've gone with massive over-capacity.
I.e. They expect to need to lift 20 tonnes, so everything's rated for 50...
(Or whatever)
I guess the requirement to pro-actively replace cables is for health and safety o the basis if they fail then something will fall on people working below. That's not the case here - if the cables fail then nobody will be underneath. And I know from installing overhead cranes (not physically obviously) anything to do with overhead cranes have a huge factor of safety applied.
I suspect they'll be able to shuttle the crane into a maintenance access area or something where they can carry out maintenance on the crane and the robot on the end of the cables.
It'll still need constant maintenance. There is no way those foam or rubber seal that were sealing the canopy to the building will last 100 years. Also the de-humidifiers and units managing the moisture levels protecting the structure will need replacement and maintenance.
An interesting engineering issue.
@raceface post the link here, we'll find a way even if its via a screen shot and repost.
OP brilliant PSA. Excellent programme. Next time I am putting some silicon sealant around the kitchen/bathroom or spraying some lube on the bike I'll think of it.
this was the pic link http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-KxRuWaD0sXg/U7MHoNyBuiI/AAAAAAAAJhs/qyyqpQXmDQY/s1600/The+Elephan t's+Foot+of+the+Chernobyl+disaster,+1986+(1).jpg
Elephant's foot
[img] 
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Edit - I tried to link the shot raceface did but it doesn't work, I think it's because of the spaces
There's also this one which I think is a long exposure as you can see Korneyev ghosted twice and some torch trails. [img] 
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IME Russians have a different outlook on risk, life and bravery. Their nuclear, aviation, military and space programs are littered with people who went beyond what normal westerners would consider doing.
They had a marksman shot bits off the elephants foot in the early days so they could work out what it was composed of. The geological name for it is: corium.
This website is fascinating too: http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/kiddofspeed/
Elena Filatova is the daughter of one of the reactor technicians, who taught her all about radiation exposure. She used to ride a very fast motorbike on the deserted roads inside the exclusion zone.
Thanks
Raceface's link - it turns out most of url wasn't needed for the link to work here
[img] http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-KxRuWaD0sXg/U7MHoNyBuiI/AAAAAAAAJhs/qyyqpQXmDQY/s1600/ [/img]
kcal - Memberah, makes sense tinas -- we've been trying to promote a Bowtie style way of working / program assistance, but I don't have sufficient industry experience to properly understand it - just the coding
Ive never done bowtie but my understanding is its a bit like a swiss cheese model in a SIL/LOPA methodology so you put one event in the middle, and have a whole probability tree on one side of initiating causes. So the event can be something more general like 'fire', whereas LOPA needs something specific like 'spilt fuel ignited'.
Exellent PSA - thank you.
Really interesting.
The usual approach to radiation dose is to minimise it wherever you can, but accept that sometimes it's unavoidable. In UK law it's the ALARP principle, which I think is international good practice for radiation dose management even where it's not law. Painting the steelwork work would be a lot of manhours, and can be avoided by dry air, whereas crane maintenance will need to be done several times in a 100 year life. I'm guessing there will be something to minimise the dose, possibly doing some things from the bottom, maybe lowering modules into the concrete shielded new construction at ground level, and possibly some shielding provision (permanent or temporary) on the crane.They went to a lot of trouble to protect the structural steelwork so they wouldn't need to go inside and repaint due to radiation but what about having to change the ropes, sheaves and drums on the cranes?
Crane maintenance? Read all about it:
[url= http://www.par.com/files/9013/6605/8015/Lift__Hoist_International.pdf ]Cranes at Chernobyl[/url]
Thanks, that's really interesting. Particularly the 777 for scale!Crane maintenance? Read all about it:
Surely the radiation will cause fatigue of the cranes though.
Amazing engineering in that prog, interesting if the release any of the footage of the deconstruction of the reactor roof and debris over time
This website is fascinating too: http://www.angelfire.com/extreme4/kiddofspeed/Elena Filatova is the daughter of one of the reactor technicians, who taught her all about radiation exposure. She used to lie about riding a very fast motorbike on the deserted roads inside the exclusion zone.
FTFY 😉
Surely the radiation will cause fatigue of the cranes though.
Not in any meaningful way, the steelwork inside our AGR's has been getting bombarded at full power for over 40 years now, not including erosion from displaced graphite and CO2 travelling at bugger knows what speed (I forget, but it's pretty damn fast).
Lift and Hoist International - that must have been on Have I Got News for You 🙂
Steel in operational reactors ages by a combination of stress and neutron bombardment. Gamma doesn't affect steel significantly and there will only be a very small number of neutrons from the corium, since there's no chain reaction.
IME Russians have a different outlook on risk, life and bravery. Their nuclear, aviation, military and space programs are littered with people who went beyond what normal westerners would consider doing.
In the Soviet Union You did as you were told.
Ok cool thank you. I wasn't aware that the different forms of radiation affected the steel differently.
Seems like a good job.
Was basing my comment on conversations with a satellite designer who said that radiation affected the materials, not enough specifics clearly
In the Soviet Union You did as you were told.
In the Angelfire website mentioned above it stated that Soviet soldiers had a choice of 2 minutes shoveling graphite from the explosion or 2 years on the Afghanistan front line, I guess they weren't told that 2 minutes was almost certain death.
She's no fan of the Soviets but also commented that without the Soviet totalitarianism the sarcophagus wouldn't have be done so quickly as know one would have volunteered, in a free, democratic, and socialist country the fallout of an identical incident could have had much worse consequences for the whole world. Interesting thought.
She used to lie about riding a very fast motorbike on the deserted roads inside the exclusion zone.
I found the website fascinating, what parts were lies? The blog part is certainly anti nuclear industry (hardly surprising given her experiences), there are some somewhat un pc opinions of Muslims refugees too but that might derail this thread if we go there.
It was a fascinating programme. Early nuclear safety in this country was pretty haphazard too - OH's grandfather was a senior engineer at Windscale, he was there for the fire and that was pretty touch and go. They were trying to wallop the burning fuel rods out using lengths of scaffold pole - when everyone had reached their exposure limit, they went down the local cinema and dragooned as many men as they could find to take turns walloping the rods.
Lena's stuff is pretty interesting, nobody seems to know what's true and what's not now. And the "debunking" is classic conspiracy theory stuff, there's at least 3 variants of the "true story" and people seem happy to believe them all, as long as they contradict hers.
I'm 40 years old and totally fascinated by this disaster, it came at a time in my life when I didn't appreciated the force of nuclear power. But now I can see what a massive issues this is and what a huge implication it had of the globe and nuclear industry.
I'd love to go to the site but don't think I'll get a chance.
I found the website fascinating, what parts were lies?
Riding around the exclusion zone, it never happened. Was debunked over ten years ago when the site first did the rounds.
Liquidators have my complete respect, they weren't as clueless as many like to believe, nor were the fire crews that attended that night. A good few of them knew what they were going into.
I've downloaded the programme, I'll be following up the links over time. Fascinating subject.
Thanks for the heads-up.
In the Soviet Union You did as you were told.
Is this a bad attempt at 'in Soviet Russia' joke or are you trying to be serious?
Most of the people who died cleaning it up didn't do it because they were told to. Yes, there wasn't a full disclosure of the truth, but you have to remember that firemen or the scientists who waded into the radioactive water knew full well this was not safe. They were heroes. They sacrificed their lives. I wish Soviet system was not built on so many sacrifices, but don't drag your 'they did it because they were told to' bullshit into this. They were raised with stories of people sacrificing their own lives for the common good. Any schoolchild knew of many heroes and they were universally admired. So, what you're saying is that they didn't know better, and did it as mindless drones - this is simply unfair and not true.
Just watched it, fantastic programme, what an extraordinary feat of engineering, talk about the bleeding edge of technology, having to pretty much make it up as you go.
Thanks for the PSA, I'd have been disappointed to have missed it.
Lardcore - while you may be correct, it's certainly a fact that the military sent in were promised that any exposure over 10 roentgen would result in an honourable discharge. They were lied to; they were then told they had to carry on because there was nobody to replace them.
Just watched it now, top programme and impressive engineering !
Maybe it's not so bad edf building our new reactor!
Interesting times for EDF
http://www.theecologist.org/News/news_analysis/2988433/french_taxpayers_face_huge_nuclear_bill_as_edf_financial_crisis_deepens.html
Thanks for that link
Fairly old link but yep, EDF are a zombie company, have been for years. Arguably was inevitable from day one, since everyone worked very hard to produce favourable cradle-to-grave costs for nuclear without worrying very much about whether they were realistic...
Hurrah for too-big-to-fail though, they can keep issuing dividends right up til they sink, and be used to buy out shares in Areva, and then taxpayers can take over. Only question there is how much we'll have to put in.
Only question there is how much we'll have to put in.
Yup will be interesting as EDF bought UK Nuclear business so is liable depending on contracts, could get very sticky between UK and French governments. I didn't realise the French production was all above today's wholesale cost.
Whilst that link is obviously biased it does contain a lot of truth. And is missing other facts.
Jamba - wholesale energy prices are down everywhere, not just France.
Is this not more appropriate for the Hinkley thread though?
I will watch this. I have just finished reading 'Chernobyl Prayer' - someone else mentioned it above. It's the most moving book I've ever read, drawing on testimony from a wide range of people affected by the incident. I just hadn't understood the enormity of the physical, environmental, social, psychological, biological, political (I could go on) impacts of the Chernobyl explosion.
Like someone else said, it's an event that I so clearly recall hearing of. Those TV images of the poor sods clearing the debris off the roof were seared into my childhood brain. Unlucky, fatalistic, vodka-fuelled heroes who, though no one had the decency to tell them, knew they faced a certain awful death as a result of their actions. The horrible complacency and cynical manipulation of information that surrounded the crisis only amplifies the debt of gratitude I feel towards those brave people.