I've been away, so missed this.
Did we find out whether God exists? Or shall I not bother wading through the thread?
I think you'll find that Woppit & Ernie haven't read the bit about turning the other cheek...
<mod>
Woppit and Ernie, we've managed thirteen pages of intelligent discussion until you two started a pissing contest. Knock it off or I'll ban the pair of you.
</mod>
I think you'll find that Woppit & Ernie haven't read the bit about turning the other cheek...
I assumed that would have happened. Did Molgrips tell everyone to be nice to each other?
I read the New Testament as a child (school & Sunday School), and some of the Old Testament for shock horror/value. Even as a child (inquiring mind, used to watch Open University 'cause it was more stimulating than the other bilge on TV) I found it nonsensical.
Woppit and Ernie: seconds away, round three... 😆
There's no "pissing contest" Cougar. Challenging someone on their hypocrisy is a fairly accepted norm in discussions/debates.
And to suggest that only an intelligent adult who has had [i]"some sort of breakdown or hallucinatory episode"[/i] can have religious views is really quite insulting. Or has Woppit special dispensation to insult people on religious threads ?
Hold on ernie are you reporting a post to a mod there and somewhat publicly, finding it insulting and also claiming hypocrisy?
For the record I have never reported any post on here as I have never felt offended by anything posted, and I've been called a lot worse than a "tit". For me to have done so would have been both hypocritical and dishonest.
Mods[ before cougar smites me for being childish] I am getting out of this as it has been a pleasant debate and looks like it will not end well but I felt I had to say something 😥
Did Molgrips tell everyone to be nice to each other?
He turned up late as he missed most of it as he was off work. Normal service was resumed once he was back in employment - Tis the STW way.
Mike it is well worth a read there are some excellent contributions from a Baptist minister who articulates a number of points very well.
Probably best to ignire the last page
See you all at the next one - May day ish ??
No-one has "special dispensation" which is why I said both of you. You've made your point, now wind it in.
If you have a problem with Woppit's (or anyone's) output, use the 'report post' button and we'll deal with it.
Mike it is well worth a read there are some excellent contributions from a Baptist minister who articulates a number of points very well.
Thanks, I'll have a scan through at some point.
oooo you big fibber, you've called me far worse than that and intimated that I'm educationally sub normal before!
Tazzy, I am properly sorry for calling you an idiot, although I don't remember the incident. I strive to achieve certain things, I don't always manage it. However if you were acting like one, I might've said as such 🙂
To me, saying someone's being or acting like an idiot isn't the same as saying that they ARE an idiot. However I'm not sure many agree with me or pick up on the distinction.
Well, I'm supposed to be writing two sermons for tomorrow and having just got back from a rather pleasant evening ride I ought to be getting on with it, but I thought I'd just pick up on a couple of point. (Although I do rather think this thread has run its course!)
I seem to recall that all the "we're offended" complaints one hears about in the news are from people foaming at the mouth about how they are offended because someone has said something critical about their religion, or some aspect of it.
I said it before and I'll say it again. You only see the very worst of religion, in fact of any group in the media. You cannot tarnish all people of faith with the same brush just because one or two get uptight about not being able to wear a cross at work, or the fact that someone drew a cartoon of the Prophet.
I think we often forget the cultural legacy of intolerance that belongs to religion when they appealto us to be tolerant
At risk of appearing critical of my Catholic and Anglican brothers and sisters, I don't feel you can fairly level that accusation at the Free Churches (Baptist, Methodist, URC, Brethren, Congregational, etc). Historically anyone in this country who didn't belong to the state religion was persecuted heavily by the church and state. Baptists, Anabaptists and Congregationalists were especially heavily persecuted. This is why you'll often find tiny little chapels hidden down little lanes miles away from towns and villages. Baptists from their very early origins in the 16th Century have campaigned for religious tolerance.
However if you were acting like one, I might've said as such
quite all right chap, was a difference in opinion over your hopeful stance on humans and their behaviour towards eco stuff, whereas I still maintain as species where screwed. someone mentioned that if they were me, they'd kill themselves in the same thread as I have a bleak outlook on humanity and the environment
🙂
Well, I'm supposed to be writing two sermons for tomorrow
Just point them at this thread.
"Dearly beloved, get your smartphones out and go to www.singletrackworld.com...."
At risk of appearing critical of my Catholic and Anglican brothers and sisters,
knock yourself out you are in friendly company here 😉
Yes it is an odd one depending on viewpoint religions have been both persecuted or persecutor be it Jews [arguably but lets not go there]in our recent lifetime or whomever at various times.
My only point is that we often get appeals to be tolerant when the reality they are often not very tolerant themselves.
At risk of appearing critical of my Catholic and Anglican brothers and sisters, I don't feel you can fairly level that accusation at the Free Churches (Baptist, Methodist, URC, Brethren, Congregational, etc). Historically anyone in this country who didn't belong to the state religion was persecuted heavily by the church and state. Baptists, Anabaptists and Congregationalists were especially heavily persecuted. This is why you'll often find tiny little chapels hidden down little lanes miles away from towns and villages. Baptists from their very early origins in the 16th Century have campaigned for religious tolerance.
There are lots of little chapels dedicated to odd and obscure saints here in North Wiltshire, often just outside villages.
Most are no longer in use, and a few churches have also been de-sanctified; Ford, on the A420 to Bristol, has a large church that's no longer in use, but there are little chapels around Lacock, Tytherton, and many others. When it comes to intolerance, the Protestants were pretty good; Cromwell's men, on their way to Bristol to sail over to Ulster, to kick some Catholic ass, took a little detour to sack a small church in the hamlet of Slaughterford, which didn't get restored until the Victorians put it back together. Christians, Protestant and Catholic, and Moslem, Shia and Sunni, seem to be particularly antagonistic towards one another. So, is it any wonder, really, that a great many people, fed up of years of fighting and anger, choose to have nothing to do with the church and religion?
So, is it any wonder, really, that a great many people, fed up of years of fighting and anger, choose to have nothing to do with the church and religion?
No wonder at all, just a deeply sad tragedy that people who claim to follow Jesus should behave like that. Sadly many of Cromwell's chaplains were what we might call 'proto-Baptist' and returned from Ireland to found churches which later became Baptist. So in fairness, we're not entirely innocent.
Not all of the Parliamentary forces were as intolerant as the Presbyterians who dominated Parliament. John Lilburne and the other Leveller leaders campaigned vociferously for the freedom of religious expression, the follow on from which is the freedom to choose no religion.
Lilburne pre-empted the US Constitution with their pamphlet 'An Agreement Of The People' that contained within the demand for the right of freedom of conscience.
I am in no way religious, John Lilburne was intensely led by his devout faith yet i sincerely believe he is one of the forgotten heroes of England due to his rigid stance on both political and religious freedoms.
I've sat on the side lines quietly enjoying this one, some great posts and points from both sides. Had a quick catch up last night and saw it was losing its way back there somewhat .... seemed a terrible shame.... So here goes for getting it back on track.
I like reading the bible by way on practising Lectio DIvina ( taken straight from wiki...a traditional Benedictine practice of scriptural reading, meditation and prayer intended to promote communion with God ) In a nut shell you take a passage of the bible, read it and note what, if any, feelings it arouses. Then, if there is anything in there, have a little think about those feelings be they good or bad and then finally have a go at contemplating how the text can be put to use in your life.
I don't always get a much out of it but on occasions the text will hit something unexpected and useful. Then again on other occasions it will be absolutely on the money. Hitting on something that is on your mind.... for instance a couple of weeks back we were have one of these discussions on here when the weekly Lectio Devina text (at the service I practise this method) was ... Lazarus and the rich man
The Rich Man and Lazarus
19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
I'll leave that with you for your contemplation/shooting down in flames.... don't need remind you not to take it literally, do I ? ... and it'll probably ask more questions than it answers .... but maybe that's kind of the point ?
Off to Church and then got my last long run before the London marathon ... 22 miles, in the sun for a change !!... I'll be using another Benedictine meditation technique during my run using the mantra .... Be still and know that I am God.... it helps take my mind off all those little devils saying "walk, walk ... you know you wanna walk"
Health body, health mind... working on the soul.... give it a try...... Get soulful... (No you don't have to do it through the/a church/bible but I've found it helps)
Peace out.
Good post ro5ey. Nice to see someone refuting the 'all religious people are stupid' argument effectively.
Not quite sure where you're going with the Lazarus story though. It only makes sense if you believe in karma or the afterlife, doesn't it?
These threads have been really interesting to me. I think I've decided that my wife is actually a cultural-Anglican pantheist, rather than a Christian.
Not quite sure where you're going with the Lazarus story though. It only makes sense if you believe in karma or the afterlife, doesn't it?
It's a [i]very[/i] good example of how [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_man_and_Lazarus ]you can take almost [i]any[/i] meaning out of a piece of scripture[/url].
At risk of appearing critical of my Catholic and Anglican brothers and sisters, I don't feel you can fairly level that accusation at the Free Churches (Baptist, Methodist, URC, Brethren, Congregational, etc). Historically anyone in this country who didn't belong to the state religion was persecuted heavily by the church and state. Baptists, Anabaptists and Congregationalists were especially heavily persecuted. This is why you'll often find tiny little chapels hidden down little lanes miles away from towns and villages. Baptists from their very early origins in the 16th Century have campaigned for religious tolerance.
Maybe not in the UK but in the US, as with any group, given a bit of power the tolerance rapidly fades away.
Although it has to said this thread does make me want to sit down and talk (not chat) to my cousin, she's a Baptist minister in Skipton. Be interesting to see what she has to say.
