Bought a new car at the weekend and on the way home noticed the tracking was off and one of the wheels needed balancing.
Rather than taking it to the car supermarket I bought it from for them to sort it I took it to my local place that Ive always used and have always been spot on. Car supermarktet footed the bill.
unfortunately there has been a change in personnel at my local place and he has input the wrong suspension type twice onto the hunter machine as he said that's what my car had fitted.
Car is handling awfully and not as it should (Comparing to our other car which is same make and model as the new one)
Ive managed to find the correct specs for my suspension and the rear toe is out : set at o degrees and 5 minutes whereas is should be 0 degrees and 8 minutes.
Rear camber is set at -1.09 one side and -1.15 the other. It should be -1.45 both sides.
Doesnt sound a great deal but if you were to put it back on a hunter alignment with the correct car details then both the rear toe and camber would be red.
Ive lost faith in the local garage as I overheard the lad that did it taking the piss out of me with his mates for taking it back.
Car is very unsettled, especially at motorway speeds (my commute is pretty much all motorway) its oversteering loads and feels like it wants to swap ends all the time.
Tyres are decent and at correct pressures, I've even swapped the wheels from our other car onto it to make sure it wasn't that and it was exactly the same.
I have bad rear toe and you are right, it makes a car really nervous. However, I think I'd take it back and make a point of taking this piss out of the lad!
Hunter wheel alignment is not cheap (How much are you paying by the way, it seems to vary wildly from free check and ££ per adjustment, or £ check and cheaper adjustments, or even 'there is no price, we stick it on the machine and see how empty the till looks today'
This is assuming your car has adjustable rear toe, normally its only large heavy cars or 4x4s with adjustable rears. Mondeo estate had true adjustable, and my Civic can be adjusted, apparently the beam axle can be tweaked as the main bolts are eccentric (although I didn't notice this when I put a replacement axle on it)
Not sure if its common to have adjustable camber on the back, it it might be a case of 'its bent so replace the bent bit'
However, I think I’d take it back and make a point of taking this piss out of the lad!
The problem is that he couldn't find my vehicle on his system.
The car supermarket have paid £65 for a full alignment
I'd ask to speak to the manager and ask him to sort it and have a nice gentle word that you dont appreciate the attitude from his lads especially as they're wrong.
Where you based? If your NW I can recommend a few places
Oh and what is it car wise?
PS I've edited/added to my earlier post. Perhaps an email to Hunter is needed to see if the garage software is out of date...or perhaps they can load the wrong settings but set to the figures rather than into the green range.
Car is a 68 plate Octavia VRS 245
It has independent rear suspension that has adjustments for camber and toe.
Toe is negligible but that’s a big difference on the camber
I'd be surprised if £65 was enough for full alignment - normally that's about the amount for just toe - are you sure they were looking at camber?
either way, I very much doubt that much 'out' would have a significant impact on the way the car feels when not really pushing on. half a degree is margin of error when pootling along a straight road. It would not make the car oversteer unless right at the limit (at which point it might slightly increase the dentancy to lose grip at the rear, but on a generic VAG product I don't think it'd be enough to cause oversteer)
either way, I very much doubt that much ‘out’ would have a significant impact on the way the car feels when not really pushing on. half a degree is margin of error when pootling along a straight road. It would not make the car oversteer unless right at the limit (at which point it might slightly increase the dentancy to lose grip at the rear, but on a generic VAG product I don’t think it’d be enough to cause oversteer)
It definitely is though mate, Im lucky enough to have another VRS in the same shape and wheels etc and it handles the road soo much better with the correct specs.
The rear of the new car drives like it has flat tyres. It just wants to swap ends.
has he set toe out instead of toe in? your tolerance would be more than the difference between what you say it is and what you say it should be. same with the camber really. if it was toeing out it would feel pretty bad.
i have found a place with a hunter locally, that is run, and owned, by middle aged men who actually care, not recalcitrant yoot working in a chain who won't listen . can't recommend them enough - essex if that helps, pm me for details if any good,
A couple of easy checks:
Ride height, how does it compare with your other car? Both castor and camber vary with ride height on most independant systems.
Check all the bolts are tight and go around with a crow bar to see if there's play anywhere.
Swap the wheels and tyres from your other car and see how it drives.
I'm surprised you can feel differences as small as that. I used to move my competition car settings by more than that and still wasn't sure if one setting was better than another.
Is that toe measurement (0°5') each side, or a total toe? 8 mins toe in each wheel sounds OK, but if they've only set it to 5mins in total, that could lead to a loose feeling at speed.
Worth checking that they've set it up to toe in, not toe out?
I wouldn't have thought that you'd feel a massive difference with that camber change, what's the -1°45' spec - centre spec or minimum tolerance? Camber's usually not that easy to get cock-on.
When was the last calibration done on their machine...?
What tyres are they? Cheap, worn Korean ditchfinders or newish decent brands? Same front and rear? How much tread?
My Alfa 147 was virtually undriveable with 2mm tread on Michelins. New tyres, problem solved!
Here are both cars
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Both cars are same ride height.
Both cars on same size wheels.
Grey one is wearing 4 Dunlops sport max tyres 225/40/18
White one is on Bridgeston potenza front and brand new Pirelli P zero Nero on the back 225/40/18
Ive swapped wheels between cars and it made no difference.
Are you sure the car is straight and has not been crashed and repaired.not sure why the camber would be out in the first place.
Are you sure the car is straight and has not been crashed and repaired.not sure why the camber would be out in the first place.
No signs of damage, Ive been underneath and checked all bolts are tight
what’s the -1°45′ spec – centre spec or minimum tolerance?
-1.45' is the correct centre spec for the car.
I missed the thing about having swapped the tyres in the OP, sorry.
If I hadn't found anything loose with the crow bar I'd get out a ball of string/reel of thread, some buckets of water to tie to and start doing toe-in measurements myself.
This is what they have set it too :
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These are the figures it should be :
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Have you checked the history of the car online? It sounds positively dangerous!
Have you spoken to the previos, pre dealer, owner? How long did the dealer have it. It's very young for such a highly regarded (?<!) car...
History is fine and there is no signs at all of crash damage, rear bumper sticker in place etc
There's nothing in the measurements (if they're right) to explain extreme oversteer, instability and a feeling of flat rear tyres. But you've no doubt worked that out yourself which is why you're posting here.
Go on, have a go with some thread and a tape measure. You've got a nice flat drive and an identical car to compare with. There must be some difference big enough to crudely measure to explain something you can feel to that degree.
A common way to cause damage is hitting kerbs or whatever sideways. Are all the wheels in an identical state (the front ones will have more brake dust)?
Have had the alignment done on my car frequently as its stiff as a board and knocked out easily...your readout vs. specs seem pretty close to me, its not an exact science hence the quite wide range of acceptable values.
0.3 Degrees of rear camber difference would be almost imperceptible. It would need to be a couple of degrees out before you'd notice a big handling difference as you describe. Are you sure there's not something else up with the car...mine eats rear sway bar bushes and results in a similar feel as you describe. Is there any knocking if you drive slowly on an uneven surface?
Yep this is what is confusing.
Back to back testing highlights it so badly. I can really feel it.
Im going to take it to another place and get it chekced.
3 wheels had the edges refurbed for sale but they were not bad. no signs of anything bent underneath.
Is there any knocking if you drive to slowly on an uneven surface?
No knocks bangs etc, everything is tight. Car has only done 18k miles
A common way to cause damage is hitting kerbs or whatever sideways. Are all the wheels in an identical state (the front ones will have more brake dust)?
If this was the case would they not struggle to get the camber set at all. Indicating suspension damage.
My current car I bought from a reputable dealer that I thought I trusted...It's only recently with some spare time to do a level 5 Super Wash and Wax that its become obvious that theres a slightly different paint quality on a rear panel that shows up when its highly polished, which leads me to believe at some point its been in a crash and had half it's rear end reconstructed- It's been very proficiently repaired and moved on through the network. Funnily enough that's the second time that's happened to me from a main dealer, the first one I years later found broken rear windscreen fragments way under the matting...hhmmm how'd they get there?...I don't trust them anymore.
I'd have a really good inspection to check for respray evidence.
If it has had damage then would this show with widely different geometry or they would struggle to get it aligned at all.
Are you sure the figures you're comparing are like for like? I've found in the past that dealer setup figures were for the car weighted to either a particular ride position, or with a set weight distributed through the car. Hunter setups (I think) are done with the car unloaded...
I'd be angling to get the car supermarket to pay for a full suspension inspection / alignment to factory specs at a dealer in your shoes, I think. Assuming that a large screwdriver didn't reveal any soft bushes anywhere underneath.
My van is considerably lower than standard with special adjustable bushes for toe and camber as standard bushes are maxed out way before they're anywhere near tolerances.
The key thing really is finding someone who knows what they're doing although a standard car on standard suspension I'd have thought would be dead easy to do.
Options are either kick off with the manager or take it elsewhere. Did you not notice it driving badly on the test drive?
The wheels may be vaguely where they should be. It doesn't necessarily mean the rest of the car is...
If it has had damage then would this show with widely different geometry or they would struggle to get it aligned at all.
Not necessarily, mine didn't. Unless the tyres are brand new or recent- if there was anything majorly out in suspension setup then it might display in uneven wear characteristics, probably on an edge...sawtooth like cupping perhaps.
Are you sure the figures you’re comparing are like for like? I’ve found in the past that dealer setup figures were for the car weighted to either a particular ride position, or with a set weight distributed through the car. Hunter setups (I think) are done with the car unloaded…
I’d be angling to get the car supermarket to pay for a full suspension inspection / alignment to factory specs at a dealer in your shoes, I think. Assuming that a large screwdriver didn’t reveal any soft bushes anywhere underneath.
Yep, Ive just had an email from Hunter uk saying that my vehicle is listed and that they have done it against the wrong type of suspension.
If you put the correct figures onto the hunter machine both the rear camber and toe show as red.
I just need to try and get them to do it again or take it somewhere else.
Not necessarily, mine didn’t. Unless the tyres are brand new or recent- if there was anything majorly out in suspension setup then it might display in uneven wear characteristics, probably on an edge…sawtooth like cupping perhaps.
Ah see I moved the previous rear tyres onto the front and they are perfectly even across the tread. Also they are the original tyres that come with the car. Bridgestone Potenza S001
Yep, Ive just had an email from Hunter uk saying that my vehicle is listed and that they have done it against the wrong type of suspension
...
I just need to try and get them to do it again or take it somewhere else.
Happy days, let us know if it's better once it's right. I'm interested to know if the size of the difference really does make the difference in handling you've described.
Hunter machines can over ride the stock settings for any given car by selecting 'modified specification' & you can do what you want & it will show everything in green, so they can do what they want or pref what you want them to.
There is a good chance their kit hasn't been calibrated for a while & is out, I had this with a customer who took their car to kwikfit & it was miles out, took the car to our regular place who had literally just had their machine calibrated & it was only marginally out.
If possible put your on other car (which you like the settings of) & take measurements & just ask them to replicate them, problem solved & it doesn't matter if their machine is miles out.
Cheers.
Also be aware that any driver assist systems will need calibrated after and alignment adjustment
Hi do lots of wheel alignment in my role at work BMW body shop we use BMW kds systems but basically hunter machine your garage needs to obviously make sure there using the correct model suspension data and also make sure the enter correct ride heights measured from the centre of the hub to the wheel arch on vw based vehicles as I unless I've missed them I can't see any castor figures which I believe is a very important measurement for stability and also if the suspension has been altered ie tracking changed if the vehicle has ADAS it also should be re calibrated. My experience with what your experiencing I would be looking at the rear toe and also the thrust axle which needs to be around zero hopefully with the right data they can improve its handling
This was my before and after. Both rear tyres were basically working against each other, if I drove over a wet manhole cover, a pothole, or the road camber changed (as if you were overtaking) the tyre with more grip would suddenly have the upper hand and dictate which way the car pointed.
A pothole or similar would just feel like the car had jumped sideways slightly, change of camber would require a (tiny) steering correction, both making the car feel skittish.
The car hadn't been crashed, but did have filler in one wing. Unrelated though as a year later it started going back to its old ways so the suspension was clearly prone to going out of spec.
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