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1964 Triumph 2000 that was even better.
I remember swapping ends unexpectedly in my old P6 while driving down Victoria Avenue in Harrogate, must have been back in the 90s. I was quite unfazed at the time, these days if something like that happened I'd be needing a nice sit down with a cup of tea to get over it!
I was brought up in the Welsh hills and learnt to drive in the winter. Was always told to use a gear lower than normal downhill in snow, and a gear higher than normal going up. And NEVER touch the brakes - the only exception being if it's more than couple of inches deep and you want to lock the wheels to build up a wedge of snow under the tyres (surprisingly effective).
ABS on snow is useless, so I'm very much in the engine braking camp. But neither works unless you're on sensible narrow-ish tyres.
Fond memories of a driving lesson up and over the Gospel Pass repeatedly in a white-out in my mum's Peugeot 104 ("you need to learn how to drive in this, so let's go again")... Dad must have had balls of steel!
ETA: Best tip I had was "Imagine there's a raw egg balanced on the dashboard and drive accordingly".
"Fond memories of a driving lesson up and over the Gospel Pass repeatedly in a white-out in my mum’s Peugeot 104 "
I drove over it last night. Was absolutely lethal. No snow but completely covered in part with black ice. The big drops and lack of barriers contribute to the bumhole clenching feeling! I need to drive it again tomorrow both ways. Not looking forward to it. At least the tyres on the little Festas are winter rated (not that that helps on sheet ice).
I like driving at night when its snowing- It's like hyperspace travel in Star Wars.
Love it when in a 'safe' place, i.e. a car you don't care about and with nothing other than snow or banks to hit. When I first passed I had a crappy Fiat Uno, lived near some country roads which had banks either side and enough visibility to see if there was anyone else coming, that was a LOT of fun.
Last time we had proper snow and I needed to get into the office I used my MTB on a traffic free route, that was great too.
These days I'll just work from home once I can get the dog in, she loves the snow!
Right car, right tyres and right place, yes. If not, no, it's stressful.
Back in the day my old Ford KA with tiny, think winter tyres was an absolute joy around the local country lanes. The middle aged rep mobile with low profile tyres I now drive is much less fun.
And NEVER touch the brakes
That's just silly. You have a certain amount of grip, just don't exceed it. Engine braking doesn't do anything special, it's just really gentle braking except a) without ABS features and b) only on the front wheels. Brake really really gently on all four wheels you'll get more traction.
I like driving in snow, again, if there's no one about, and I'm on my own in the vehicle.
I don't like driving my daughters citroen C1.
I do like my Peugeot partner. that seems to handle OK in snow, providing my wife isn't in it making stupid noises at every slip or slide.
worst trip was M74 heading to newcastle for a gig. nose to tail, slow slow slow.
best was driving back from Edinburgh to Glasgow about 20 years ago, in a minibus, full of goths, at 3am.
Took ages, going steady along the M8,but the tunes were great.
Once I'd dropped everyone off I could mess about a bit at 5mph with an empty big rear wheel drive van. Drifting slightly sideways down Byres road......
I think engine braking is the wrong thing to do in almost all scenarios but perhaps with an AWD automatic (CVT) car it makes sense.
Nah, engine braking in the snow or ice, always. Slowing the car on the (moving) front wheels and free rolling rears you'll never get the car to swap ends unless you haul on the brakes or swing on the steering wheel. Very similar on 4wd (And AWD depending on how it's set up)
Use the brakes you'll potentially be in all sorts of shit because each wheel axle will have a different point at which it breaks away. And the actual brake force is dependent on having something consistent to react against, take the consistency away and your not going to have fun, unless it's in an empty car park.
In light snow or ice it's actually not that hard to have the front wheels rolling and the rears locked and sliding, and then they really will overtake the front axle.
Brakes are generally for bringing you down from low speed to a stop.
but modern ESP can detect four wheel lockup and do a much better job.
Not really. It's not magic. Even the next gen stuff on the protos i've been driving isn't that much better than the 5 year old tech in my company car. Bloody brilliant in rain and on dry tarmac though.
Engine braking doesn’t do anything special,
Biggest benefit with engine braking is it will force the wheels to continue turning, even if you get a wedge of snow building in front of the front tyres. As long as they are turning you won't swap ends (unless you do something stupid. Like 2nd gear at 60).
ABS/ESP won't. It relies on the friction between the road and tyre to start it rotating again, and once you're slightly sideways, this gets harder.
Obviously, winter tyres changes things in lots of ways. The only risk i have right now is getting beached/grounded in deep snow, rest of the time i just have to drive sensibly.
Yes, with winter tyres. You can almost drive normally, within reason.
Unfortunately the fun tends to be spoiled by people who think they’re driving gods on summer tyres who either can’t get going, or can’t stop.
There is something satisfying about making your own lane on a snowy motorway while everyone else is stuck.
I rarely drive in the snow in the UK to save paying for winter tyres, but I've been lucky enough to do my fair share of cold climate testing. Studded winter tyres on an ice lake whilst trying to provoke wheelspeed faults is excellent fun. Digging it out of the bank after overcooking it less so.
It's a while since I did the driver training for it but I don't remember engine braking featuring at all heavily. Especially for less experienced people I think it's better to use both else you risk panicking as you come into a corner too fast, lifting off harder and having the back come round. If you're already braking as you realise your mistake, odds are you'll just understeer if you panic brake, which is easier to manage for someone who's never practiced oversteer.
Limit braking is something everyone can try, peak brake force is just on the limit of abs coming in, so try braking hard enough for abs and then backing the pedal off until it just stops juddering, and hold it on that limit. Also winding more lock on if you're understeering can make the problem worse as the tread blocks twist. The accelerator can be your friend in a fwd car when understeering as power can drag the nose in the direction you want. If you do oversteer, you need to wind the opposite lock on way faster than you think!
I think I must be doing something wrong as I don't enjoy driving in any conditions. It's just a means of getting somewhere. I don't dislike or fear driving but I find no pleasure in it. Although stick me in a go kart on a track and I'll have a huge grin on my face.
Well we've had a bit of snow, so I'll be commuting on the bike as usual. Fortunately mainly traffic free off road route, so no slidy cars to worry about, so the studs will be useful once again. Had these tyres about 13 years !
I'd also add for anyone who thinks the stability systems on modern cars aren't doing much for them - I once managed to flash a software that broke / totally turned off the ESC. On the ice track the difference was astounding, virtually undriveable in comparison to normal and even compared to with the esc turned "off" via the button.
On special stages yes, until I caught my minute man and had to follow them to the end of the stage because there's no way to overtake on narrow snowy stages. Brag, brag, brag etc. 🙂 In a current car with electric handbrake, ABS, traction wotsit blah ****ing dull motoring blah, on a public road not really. I really hate putting chains on so if there's a bus running I'll take that and let the bus driver faff with the chains and find a way through the abandonned cars littering the road.
Edit: Turns out this is more contentious than I realised. I think engine braking is the wrong thing to do in almost all scenarios but perhaps with an AWD automatic (CVT) car it makes sense.
I think the problem is, brakes are generally way too sensitive and it’s difficult to provide the exact pressure needed. Whereas engine braking is consistent, never locks the wheels up, and will only in the rarest circumstances result in you lost traction if you smash it into 1st or 2nd gear at speed. Think ahead, run down through the gears slowly, and very gently use the brake to assist if necessary. The whole idea is to slowly roll to a stop rather than applying force to stop.
I used engine braking for many years, in particular in my Octavia diesel. Never lost control, except for one very cold evening on a minor road where runoff from a field would overflow the drainage ditch and flood the road. I anticipated the road being frozen and slippery, so carefully downshifted as I approached, until I was barely moving, and turned the corner. Or tried to - the car started to turn, then gently drifted into the grassy bank at an oblique angle. Where it stuck. Much rocking backwards and forwards with the ‘box and I got it unstuck, and carried on to my mates place.
The only occasion since I learned to drive in 1976.
Now I’m driving a semi-auto I’m being very wary in slippery conditions, although I’ve got CrossClimate2’s on the front, I’ve little experience of driving in very slippery conditions in a semi-auto.
Not any more
Was great in the L200 though. Spent a large majority of the "Beast From The East" pulling 4wd German saloons out of 8ft high snowdrifts round our village.
One of the maddest snowy drives I had was down the M4 in a Smart For2 late one night - rear engined with 2 fat tyres on the back and skinny ones on the front - alarmingly kept trying to go sideways/backwards 🤣 Came down over a railway bridge and realised I was just sliding/no brakes so went around the wrong way to avoid t-boning a taxi.
I was in Jasper, Alberta and hired a Jeep Cherokee to drive over the Rockies in early May when it was still snowy. Went up to Moraine Lake to find a vast, snowy empty car park and had some fun doing donuts and stuff. Mrs DB less impressed. We drove over one pass in heavy snow and these big rigs were coming down locking their wheels and fish-tailing 😳
Whilst living in Moray drove nearby to Tomintoul for a dog walk in the forest and immediately beached in a snow-filled car park as it was 10” deep - don’t go deeper than your ground clearances, 4x4 doesn’t help - Crown Estates guy in a Landy pulled me out.
Sometimes, you can have too much snow:
Yes, partly for the fun of it, and partly as it means I'm not riding a Lambretta or RD350 in those conditions aka "the good old days".
In the collection of ratty front wheel drive cars I've had the privilege of nursing through their golden years, engine braking has been a winning move, as the level of driver assistance any of them offer is/was negligible. Also as a teen I learned it was easy to stall a FWD car by braking on ice, which doesn't improve control!
Anyone else also enjoy RWD car and a nice flat car park with no bollards or lamp posts?
When we got married, MrsPants had an mx5. There was a nice big B&Q just down the hill and I spent several happy snowy evenings in there. Did attract the attention of a passing police car one time but he was happy enough once I convinced him the car was "mine"
the original mini was an absolute hoot in the snow.
Used to live half way down a steep hill (1:4 in places). Only enough room for a vehicle to go down / up and there were a few passing places.
If I knew snow was coming, I used to go down and park the car in the multi story car park down in town.
On the 2 occasions I didn’t do this, I had the car hit by at least one of the numerous idiots who decided the hill was driveable.
You would watch them come over the brow of the hill, then they would see a car coming up , so they would hit the brakes, usually hit the wall on the left , then hit as many cars as possible on the right as they pirouetted down . Meanwhile the car attempting to go up would panic, stick it in to reverse and hit just as many cars as the other one. There were 14 smashed cars on one day. People were ringing the police to get them to shut the road , but by then it was too late.
Yes
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[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/8071/8395678228_baee30c819_c.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/8071/8395678228_baee30c819_c.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/dMU3CU ]The only car in Blanchland car park[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/66452821@N00/ ]ritcheyp20[/url], on Flickr
All on winters. The Octavia 4x4 was the best
Used to love driving in the snow. I used to have a Ford Sierra with a boot. It was awesome in the snow. One snowy morning,I basically drove all the way to work at an angle. It was so easy to hold in a slight drift in slippy conditions.
I'm less keen on anything turbocharged. Trying to balance torque/traction going up hill used to be a nightmare. Some vehicles off boost would stall on steep inclines but wheelspin with boost.
Not tried it in a modern vehicle admittedly, due to the lack of decent snowfall in the shires recently.
Bit of a moot point in reality, because you should be driving so slowly and gently that your braking will be done by the engine anyway, it's not worth using neutral to actively remove it as a factor.
I quite enjoy it. SWMBO doesn't and will ask me to shift her zafira to a slightly more main road for her. No problem there.😁
On the way back from school this morning I walked past a woman stuck in a hill in her Volvo xc40 (?). She'd lost grip uphill, stopped (middle of the road) and couldn't get going. Hill hold wasn't helping as it holds the back brake on, and this causes the fronts to lose grip.
She sat there and her only contribution was to periodically try driving away, to no effect. A chap came out and offered her a push, until I rather uncharitably suggested that standing downhill of 2 tonnes of metal on a slippery surface wasn't the best idea. Tried telling her to roll backwards downhill but no effect.
I think there's a very narrow understanding of what mechanically is going on in cars. And don't get me started on the 15mph brigade on clear, wet tarmac because the verges are white. 😣
Love it, but I never get the chance here (Cardiff). I grew up with the stuff, though, and woke many a morning to find my car like this (not my photo):
because you should be driving so slowly and gently that your braking will be done by the engine anyway,
On most car that means braking with only two wheels and with the lowest level of grip of those two due to the differential (unless limited slip). Braking with the footbrake gives you four wheel braking and the ABS will sort out the best braking you can get from each of those wheels. If you want to stop dip the clutch and brake. I've explained why it's better to dip the clutch before, Molgrips but here you are again selling your engine braking stuff which really doesn't beat braking with ABS clutch down. FFS try it one day before continuing to offer advice from another age.
When my 3 kids were learning to drive, or had recently passed their tests (20-ish years ago, when snow was a regular visitor) there was a housing estate by us with a largely deserted ring road. I used to take them car sledging so they got used to the feeling of being on and over the limit of traction. Great fun and a valuable learning experience. Better to know how to handle a skid.
I think I must be doing something wrong as I don’t enjoy driving in any conditions. It’s just a means of getting somewhere. I don’t dislike or fear driving but I find no pleasure in it
This is me most of the time but I think I just like having to be very concentrated and very calm.
Interesting to hear folk who are into driving and understand how cars work talk about engine braking vs pedal braking. In the EV I use the regen braking as much as possible in the snow as it feels more in control. Perhaps this is an illusion brought about by all the computers and robots and whatnot in the car.
*some niche car probably has a snow mode, but generally it’s rubbish.
I thought my Merc had Snow mode till someone told me the S meant Sport. It explained all the fishtailing I was doing on snow days.
That Crusader must be hilarious...
I reckon there's at least 2 ways to have fun driving in snow... I love just going out in it, putting fresh tracks on the road, seeing where I can get. Helping stuck people out is fun, too. But also I do like a good skid too. I'm not even going to pretend it's practicing control skills or learning the car or anything, I just love to make a noise and spin around, or drift about in a nice safe spot.
Obviously when I do it, it's fine, if anyone else is doing it, they're idiots 😉
I quite like a bit of snow driving. Used to regularly make trips north of Inverness in December time so invested in winter wheel and tyres which actually does make it fun in a safe space with no one else around.
I remember my dad taking to his work car park and ‘teaching’ me about skids and how to correct them.
However now I’ve got a rear wheel drive estate that you can’t even get all seasons for without buying new rims it isn’t as much fun. People don’t drive for the conditions. The guy that opted to drive off the road and hit a road sign this morning at least didn’t hit my wife or the car coming the other way as they made their way down the ungritted country lane waaaaay too fast.
People don’t drive for the conditions.
I think part of the problem is, most people in the UK aren't programmed for it. We get snowy / icy weather so rarely - what, a couple of weeks a year maybe? - that folk don't get the chance to practice. When they do venture out it's usually on gritted roads. It's hardly surprising that so many are clueless as soon as they're on snow.
This Triumph wasn't as much fun in the snow!
But this was brilliant. Joint-owned with a friend.
Took it out drift bashing with some 4x4s in the snowy Wolds once. Friend had experimented with an inappropriate flywheel and TR6 15" wheels which meant it took forever to wind up, but also meant you couldn't spin the wheels to save your life. It tractored up icy hills really well.
We took it to the Pyrenees over Christmas once. Aiming to meet friends in Andorra they called us in Spain and told us the road in from France was shut so we better get a move on before they shut the road from Spain. Had a blast charging our way past all the cars stopping to put chains on, and didn't have a single issue on the mountain roads. And then managed to clip a car in the car park when we arrived.
No ! Not in my artic . Definitely not 😬
If you want to stop dip the clutch and brake. I’ve explained why it’s better to dip the clutch before, Molgrips but here you are again selling your engine braking stuff which really doesn’t beat braking with ABS clutch down. FFS try it one day before continuing to offer advice from another age.
I don't think you've read the thread properly Ed.
In the EV I use the regen braking as much as possible in the snow as it feels more in control. Perhaps this is an illusion brought about by all the computers and robots and whatnot in the car.
In most EVs (everything except the i3 AFAIK, and possibly only early ones) the car always uses regenerative braking unless you need more stopping than regen can provide. If you touch the brake pedal lightly or moderately you are still using regenerative braking.
Check out the multiple EV in icy conditions thread on multiple brand specific and general piston head forums for a variety of experiences, Molgrips. My own limited experience with the Zoé is:
The proportion of weight over the driving wheels is lower than with a FWD ICE so traction isn't great.
It's like an automatic but with a mass of torque at low speed which requires very gentle use of the go pedal.
Like an automatic you can't stall it so there's no risk of locked wheels by stalled engine so no need to declutch, and there isn't a clutch anyhow.
If there are icy conditions the battery is likely to be so cold regenerative braking will be very small, if I drive it out of a warm garage I select D rather than B to reduce regen braking.
But really it just drives like any other one and a half ton lump on skinny Cross Climate tyres - really quite well without any significant vices or drama. Goes OK, stops quite well. Any doubt chains on.