I've just had my wife on the phone in tears over an NHS job she's been offered. The job is a research position to do with their maternity service.
The lead up to all this has been to masters degrees and a four year PhD (combined with a teaching position, hence the extra year), which she finishes in September. Between the PhD and the second masters she did a year working for Manchester Metropolitan Uni.
The job is an NHS band 5, which is between £22k and £28k. She feels that, given she has a PhD, she should be at least in the middle of this pay band but, even after HR at the NHS have reviewed her qualifications, they think she should still be at the bottom of the pay grade.
It's a job she really wants, and jobs related to what she does are very few and far between, especially outside academia (which she's had enough of) and even more so where we live. Her possible future boss has already put a case for her to HR which they rejected, are there any other steps she can take to try and get a better offer from them given their pay structure is so rigid compared to the private sector (which is what I'm used to, last time I got a job I just presented other salaries offered and my new employer agreed to raise their offer).
From what I know of working with the NHS then no. If HR have said no then the Manager can't do anything about it. Manager will basically get authorisation to advertise for a roll at a specific band. HR make the final decision on pay not her manager.
I'd just take the job as 22k is better than SFA. Keep her eyes and ears open and see what else comes up.
It's a job she really wants, and jobs related to what she does are very few and far between
This limits bargaining position, I'd imagine.
Very limited I'd have thought. The holders of the purse strings run the NHS at the moment, and pretty much every decision is based around saving money.
You wife wants the job, they clearly know she wants the job, and they're playing hardball. (that's them doing their job properly)
I'm Scotland so the NHS here is a totally separate organisation. However, it is very difficult to negotiate salaries outwith the middle- / senior management posts, and new post tend to start at the bottom of the band.
But even anywhere on B5 scale does seem low - I actually would have expected a B6 as a minimum for a post where a Masters was a preferable requirement for the post
I'd say nope having worked in a public sector area myself. Significant lift off the band minimum was rare enough 20 years ago and probably nonexistent now. Until you reach the set-your-own-salary levels that is...
That's all pretty much as I though, thanks for the advice.
She's at the stage of a PhD where a meltdown is only ever moments away and I think someone reviewing her qualifications and deciding that they didn't count for anything has suddenly made her wonder what the point of it all was.
I'll suggest she accepts but keeps looking in the meantime, which I think is her plan anyway.
If she does end up with it, do any of you reckon that having all these qualifications (and being excellent at the job, which she will be) she'll be able to get up the pay scale reasonably quickly?
I'm far from an expert, but when I looked at doing a PhD years ago, I very much got the impression that a PhD often didn't get much in the way of increased salary. In fact post doctoral research roles seemed a lot of hard work for very little reward (at least early on in a career).
If they won't budge on pay within that band, how will her prospects be for getting promoted into a higher pay band within a few years?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-40715955
Massive shortage of staff, due to low wages that aren't keeping up with inflation and increasing workload pressure.
Mrsgoat has worked in the NHS for just over two years and the hourly rate for her band is barely above minimum wage, just under £8/hour iirc. Posties get ~£11/hour, different mental/physical job aspects, but both services worthy of £11/hour imo.
Nursing pay scales seem to be based on the assumption that there's another wage-earner in the household. I wonder if this is historically the case.
Don't know how a single person could live on NHS wages.
Don't know how a single person could live on NHS wages.
You live in the wrong part of the country then.
I could live (and have done) quite comfortably (as in I can still buy new cars and bikes) off the bottom end of the pay bracket in the OP.
If you don't live in the SE, anything over around £18k is going into your pool to spend on capitalist luxury items.
Assuming it's on the normal AfC banding, I'd agree with the 'no' responses you've got so far. I'm a Band 6 NHS back-office monkey, and despite having been doing the same job as a contractor for 5 years, they couldn't slot me in on anything higher than the second spine point in the band. From the discussions I had with my manager and director, they can usually put in a case to start you on the second point but that's as high as you can go as a new starter, irrespective of qualifications or experience.
I'd say if HR have already looked and rejected it, that's it.
External applicants at Band 3 - 7 seem to often start at base of advertised scale.
If you don't live in the SE, anything over around £18k is going into your pool to spend on capitalist luxury items
Lol what nonsense/trolling. For starters how many people are you factoring in being supported by that salary?
My wife is a band 6 nurse, I work for an LA.
Equal pay/single status means that the role is evaluated. If a PhD is not required, they're not going pay extra to fill the role.
My step brother was in similar position, although he felt very entitled...he studied until the age of 39 and was surprised the NHS wouldn't parachute him to a top level job with no experience.
Get feet under table, then apply for promotions when she has experience...
Edit: not at all suggesting your wife feels entitled. After working in the public sector for many years, the current funding issues are the worse I've known...we're all having to totally change the way we woek
One she's in post and fully familiar with what the role entails, she can argue her case for re-banding. I know of some successful cases, but admittedly lower bands.
Lol what nonsense/trolling. For starters how many people are you factoring in being supported by that salary?
Don't know how a [b]single person[/b] could live on NHS wages.
1 person - was fairly obvious from the bold bit in the quote.....
How is it nonsense? I've been there, done that, bought myself a house and nice (but not flashy) cars and bikes all starting from a lower wage than £18k.
No kids, and no pissing money away on stuff like iphones and unused gym memberships.
Basic out goings are mortgage, council tax, electric, phone/tv/broadband, car insurance and home insurance which are roughly (380, 90, 45, 40, 40, 40), which leaves loads left over for food and consumer goods.
This is what our Trusts policy states on this:
Staff who have no previous NHS experience (or have been out of the NHS from more than 1 year), should be appointed to the minimum of the pay band.
In exceptional circumstances managers may wish for the candidate to start at a point higher up the payscale based on their previous experience and skills that they can bring to the role.
There is no automatic entitlement to match a salary from outside of the NHS, and the additional benefits that the NHS provides to its workers should be considered when deciding on a salary point.
A salary higher than the minimum must not be offered until the manager has evidence that clearly shows an equivalent level of knowledge, skill and experience working at that level to warrant the point on the scale. Consideration should also be given to other staff within the department who have had to work through the incremental scale to get to their pay point. A copy of evidence of this knowledge, skills and experience should be forwarded with the confirmation of appointment form.
Verbal or written offers of a salary higher than the minimum point should not be made until it has been signed off by the Head of Resourcing.
The incremental date will be set to be the anniversary of their start date in post.
Before increasing the point on the scale consideration should also be given to the possibility of recruitment and retention premia (RRP). RRP can be awarded to posts where there are difficulties in recruiting due to market restraints, it can be awarded in the short and long term. If it is felt this is a more appropriate channel managers should speak to the Resourcing team who can advise on next steps.
OP tough times. A good friend recentky completed her PhD whilst remaining on NHS payroll (full pay 3 years, half pay for 1) so I understand the stress of approaching completion and the viva.
FWIW she has gone back to largely the same job on the same money as she wanted to keep the patient contact and better paid jobs had none.
The NHS is under massive budget pressures so getting more money will be very hard especially if they feel a less well qualified candidate can do the job.
Has she added in the value of the pension (career average ?), that might make the job better paid in reality ?
My cousin's wife finished her PhD last year as a counselling psychologist. She managed to do a year in the NHS before getting completely ****ed off with the whole organisation and getting a job in a private clinic. It wasn't even about the money, it was the whole system. But she's half-Austrian and has that Germanic non-nonsense efficiency to her. It was quite at odds with the Civil Service.
sc-xc - didn't read it like that at all, I don't think she's asking the world but I think she thought there would be some reward over an undergraduate offered the same position considering the PhD and Masters given that the PhD is effectively experience and has taken 4 years out of her life.
Blitz - that policy reads essentially how I thought it would in my head but it's good to see it, thanks.
Hopefully 6 months into it she can argue the case for re-banding.
compared to the private sector (which is what I'm used to, last time I got a job I just presented other salaries offered and my new employer agreed to raise their offer).
If you're using the private sector as a benchmark, don't forget to factor the pension in - the NHS scheme is worth a [b]lot[/b] more than you're likely to encounter in the private sector
and jobs related to what she does are very few and far between, especially outside academia
This does reduce the strength of any bargaining position - supply / demand.
If she does end up with it, do any of you reckon that having all these qualifications (and being excellent at the job, which she will be) she'll be able to get up the pay scale reasonably quickly?
Nope - pretty much one point per annum.
If this was always going to be an external appointment (which sounds likely from what you've said but I could be wrong) they will have allocated bottom-of-scale cost to the budget, and that's what will be available - they're not playing hardball, they're offering what they've got.
Munro we wish her and you the best. IMO the chances of her getting the job rebranded are extremely low. If they can fill the role with someone without a PhD at a lower salary they will.
I never did a PhD stopped at Masters, I regret that as it would be a worthwhile personal achievement. However I was never under any illusions it would get me paid better. In fact having a PhD tends to push you into relatively lower paid work / sectors. People interested in research will work for less money and are generally less motivated by it hence the situation.
@edlong has hit the nail on the head. They are offering what is approved in the budget for the role
You live in the wrong part of the country then.If you don't live in the SE, anything over around £18k is going into your pool to spend on capitalist luxury items.
Ha ha. Just saw this. Is there a "wrong" part of the country? You just live where you live. Have to move to Scotland to afford a house? I'd say WRONG JOB rather than wrong part of the country. £18K was my wage in 1986. Piss take to pay ANYONE that little in 2017.
But thanks anyway, for the well thought out practical and sensible answer.
How is it nonsense? I've been there, done that, bought myself a house and nice (but not flashy) cars and bikes all starting from a lower wage than £18k.
As a single band 5 NHS employee, I bought a nice wee flat in central Glasgow and a decent reliable car to commute the 30-odd miles to work in. A moderately comfortable life but with no dependents.
To the OP, if the job was defined as band 5 (which it would have been before she was offered it) then band 5 it is. I did once manage to get HR to up an advertised band 5 so I could offer the candidate a band 6 wage, but it was for an exceptional candidate who knew the site, the working practices and the technology (medical imaging so a bit obscure), but it wasn't easy to do. it was also based on experience not on academic qualifications.
Standard public sector pay offer I'm afraid. Unless you're coming from another job and have the skill set etc and can argue the offer should be made above minimum point, it's minimum point. I have staff in the same situation.
BigButSlimmerBloke - it's not the Band 5 bit that's the problem, it's the fact that it's the lowest point on Band 5.
I'll mention the pension to her, she could definitely do to make up for lost time on that...
If she does end up with it, do any of you reckon that having all these qualifications (and being excellent at the job, which she will be) she'll be able to get up the pay scale reasonably quickly?
I work in a different part of the public sector, but band minimum to maximum usually takes a set number of years ~ 5 maybe? The performance component allows progression at the set rate, not any higher.
In their eyes, she hasn't actually got her PhD yet - and may fall at the final hurdle (I know that it extremely unlikely, but some folk do piss away 3 years of a PhD and never finish the write up *coughs* 😳 ).
BUT as the old saying goes, it's easier to get a new job when you already have one. My advice would be to take the offer, knuckle down for a couple of years and then move on. Good luck.
Piss take to pay ANYONE that little in 2017.
Again, I'd have to ask why?
If you live outside the London/SE bubble its a very adequate amount to lead a comfortable life.
Is there a "wrong" part of the country? You just live where you live. Have to move to Scotland to afford a house?
And no, obviously there isn't a "wrong" part of the country, but you don't just live where you live. You live where you 'choose' to live, and many people choose to live outside the London/SE bubble as it gives them a much better quality of life (even on a lower wage).
Obviously things like public sector pay bands (and minimum/living wage) really highlight the differences in living costs in different areas of the country, and its a virtually impossible problem to solve.
there isn't a "wrong" part of the country
I've worked in Kirkcaldy...
I left the Civil Service Faststream after a year to do a PhD in 2007, completed that and then spent a year lecturing at a Russell Group uni and another year doing lab work, bits of teaching, and publishing a few papers. I got frustrated by not being able to get tenure (I was an okay academic, but far from world-class, which is what you seem to be now to get a permanent lectureship), and went back to the CS in 2013 at the starting salary of the grade I left at in 2006.
Terrible career move? Absolutely. I'd still do the same again though, as the PhD and jobs in academia thereafter were - despite all the stresses - an ace way to spend half a decade.
😆I've worked in Kirkcaldy...
If she has a PhD, 22K seems ridiculously low. Is her expertise in something that could be transferred to industry (where she would be looking to double that salary, even without industry experience)?
If its what she loves go for it, better to be doing something she loves than getting 10 years into a boring job.
Yes the pay may seem low now but the NHS is massive with loads of opportunities and getting a foot in the door / experience could lead to great things.
Could you still get a martgage for a house with an £18K salary?
I remember in 1986 my boss having to lie about my salary so that I could get a mortgage! Amazing that there are still houses available for that amount. I'm gonna start house hunting up north!
The job is advertised at B5 Agenda for Change.
The manager has discretion to offer any where on that pay scale (certainly at the trusts I have worked at)
However this normally has to be substantiated by previous salary or higher qualifications/ experience than other candidates.
What kind of rapport does she have with the recruiting manager? Personally I would be speaking to them and explaining why you think you justify not being on bottom.
I joined the NHS at top of banding due to past salary and experience.
If she does end up with it, do any of you reckon that having all these qualifications (and being excellent at the job, which she will be) she'll be able to get up the pay scale reasonably quickly?
No in an word, she will go up the increments annually and that is it. The NHS isn't very good at identifying talent and developing/rewarding it. In many ways you often have to move Trust to move up a banding etc.
A manager can not employ at bottom of scale and then move someone to the top the following year.
Unfortunately qualifications and time spent getting them means very little now...employers want people who are competent and capable. Qualifications don't prove either in this day in age.
If she wants it, take it as it sounds like it won't come again. Pay rises can be earned through experience and time spent.
Not great advice, sorry.
I'm far from an expert, but when I looked at doing a PhD years ago, I very much got the impression that a PhD often didn't get much in the way of increased salary. In fact post doctoral research roles seemed a lot of hard work for very little reward (at least early on in a career).
In my industry (pharma research) a PhD will get you a very substantial increase in starting salary. Increasingly, you won't be considered for a position without one. Once you have a significant amount of experience it makes less of a difference money wise, but can still eliminate you from the running in the first place.
Unfortunately qualifications and time spent getting them means very little now...employers want people who are competent and capable. Qualifications don't prove either in this day in age.
Qualifications are absolutely key here, which I guess shows how much things can vary between industries!
Find another job. If they won't pay the money, look elsewhere.
You may find a pragmatic response is take the job so that you have at least *some* income, then look to private research.
I had someone with masters apply for our admin role, and someone with a PhD expect lots more money than on offer for a training post in education - they assumed their biology PhD was worth more than a teacher with 10 years experience. They were disappointed.
Could you still get a martgage for a house with an £18K salary?
I remember in 1986 my boss having to lie about my salary so that I could get a mortgage! Amazing that there are still houses available for that amount. I'm gonna start house hunting up north!
I can very much imagine it would seem amazing to someone currently living in the bubble.
But the answer is yes, a quick google shows Halifax will give you £85k mortgage on a single wage of £18k, and an equally quick search shows well over 100 2bed flats to choose from <£90k in Dundee.
But anyway, enough derailing Munro's thread.
Yes I think £22k sucks for a PhD, but no i'm not in any way surprised as PhD's are regularly underpaid (but not quite that badly) in the private sector too.
But if its the job she want's and will enjoy, yes I think she should take it anyway and explore opportunities to move up pay bands. At the end of the day, earning an adequate (and I assume second household wage) in a job you enjoy is not a bad place to be in.
An alternative is Jaguar Land Rover, but she thinks they're morally bankrupt so won't entertain it. I think it'd be alright.
Her PhD is in language after stroke from the Human Communication Science department of Sheffield, which is in the medical faculty. Outside the NHS and other universities the opportunities, which will be as a social researcher, are pretty limited I think. Private sector social research firms aren't advertising anything (at the moment).
She's going to accept I think, and keep applying if it turns out to be a waste of time. It does mean she can focus on finishing the PhD rather than job applications.
What kind of rapport does she have with the recruiting manager? Personally I would be speaking to them and explaining why you think you justify not being on bottom.
It's good, he thinks she should be offered more and has argued the case on her behalf with HR. HR have come back and said no.
All I'd add is that it's a long old game and to stick with the PhD.
It's a worthwhile transferable qualification which shows you can stick at something and also go past training in what's already known about a topic, and add to what's known. This will be the case five or ten years from now when she could be doing something quite different. I don't know many people who've done one and regret it. I do know a few who regret bailing.
(I applied for a job when 'just about' to finish a PhD, which took me a few months, what with a new baby, new house and other shizzle. Never occurred to me I'd get a pay rise as it didn't affect how I did my work, other than not writing a thesis in the evenings.)
As many have said does the role require a PhD? If not then why would they pay extra for someone that's over qualified? Out of interest why did your wife do a PhD, was it for personal gain or was she expecting to earn more money? If the latter then surely she did her research into the job market and looked at roles that did and didn't require a PhD and what the pay difference was.
Long story short NHS don't have loads of cash.
As an aside, education levels and pay is an interesting subject. When I was at Uni over 20 years ago it seemed like the default option. However I can safely say that in my career my degree, which should be relevant, hasn't really helped me to any great extent. A few of the soft skills were useful but apart from that nada. When it comes to the kids looking at further education in 5 years time I'll need to have a serious chat with them about what they want to do and whether a degree is actually required. Especially when you look at the cost of an average degree and how long people are paying student loans off for.
My personal experience is that I'd rather have a good worker, who's self motivated, a good communicator and can just crack on with it. Their formal education is almost a moot point as long as they can show the above and are technically competent.
edit: Sorry reading that I sound like I'm bitching, that certainly wasn't my intention 🙂
